What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[Butch5]

Please research these few verses on this subject:

Job 32:8, Prov 18:4, 20:27, 2Zec 12:2, Acts 18:25 and 1 Cor 2:11 in the NASB. Very clear. Man is a spirit. The Bible says so.

I've looked at a boatload of passages and none of the ones posted here say that man is a spirit.

8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8 KJV)

The passage says there is a spirit in man, see Gen 2:7.

4 The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook. (Pro 18:4 KJV)

This passage doesn't even mention the word spirit.

27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. (Pro 20:27 KJV)

The spirit of man, not man is a spirit. I've already acknowledged that there is a spirit in man see Gen 2:7

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. (Zec 12:2 KJV)

This passage says nothing about a spirit and there is no 2 Zec.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. (Act 18:25 KJV)

This passage speaks of being fervent in the spirit, it says nothing about man being a spirit.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1Co 2:11 KJV)

The passage says the spirit in man, I've already acknowledged there is a spirit in man, the passage doesn't say man is a spirit.

I think we can see that this claim is by way of inference and not what the Scriptures actually say. One can post every occurrence of the word spirit in the Scriptures and they won't post a passage that says man is a spirit, that because he's not, he's dust just as God said.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {bring...: Heb. cause to bud}
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

We have been.


2 entirely different things. The Holy Spirit is NOT an inanimate object, like a seal that is designed to be broken. Further, please show from the NT where the Holy Spirit can be removed. Most OT believers never had the Holy Spirit, so please don't go to David's prayer.


Please provide any NT text that tells us that the Holy Spirit can be removed. You've made statements without any evidence.

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:13-14 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Our argument is directly from Scripture.


Why does Heb 4:12 distinguish between soul and spirit? Please answer.

Further, here are some numbers that might interest you.

"soul" found 432 times in KJV, 263 times in NASB, and 125 times in NIV.

"spirit" found 457 times in KJV, 519 times in NASB and 477 times in NIV.

You have no support from Scripture for your view.

See Gen. 2 :7

 

[chessman]

Isn't this determining whether the seal can be broken based on what you believe confidence means?
.

No.
I know what confidence means and where confidence in a believer comes from:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6 (LEB) Now we possess such confidence through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also makes us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. ​

As I said a long time ago, there's zilch within this context that should lead someone away from their confidence in God's seal placed in our hearts or His anointing upon us. It has almost nothing to do with my beliefs about OSAS. Why? Because the text literally says God placed these things in a believers hearts. (The Seal, the confidence, the anoiting and for goodness sake Christ Himself is literally in a believers heart). God's a winner not a loser. He owns us was Paul's point.

To suggest; 'ah, but they would have thought to themselves a seal can be broken' comes from nowhere within this text. Now you imply my confidence comes from some kind of a dogmatic personal pre-supposition about OSAS.

The Biblical fact is, my confidence comes from God however, per this very passage we are supposed to be discussing (and many others).

Plus, it's not just a seal (literally The Holy Seal, in this case) that you claim can be broken but the promises of God that would need to be broken for a once Holy Sealed, Anoited of God and Christ filled believer to become un-sealed.

Plus....I could go on but will not because you're not really interacting with these points anyway.

But I will say that your OT references to the Spirit 'leaving' Saul misses the point entirely from their stated contexts in that was about God's spirit coming and going (and coming back again, I should add) for the specific purposes of God having His way with Saul's/David's kingly duties, not their salvations.

 

[Butch5]

No.
I know what confidence means and where confidence in a believer comes from:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6 (LEB) Now we possess such confidence through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also makes us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. ​

As I said a long time ago, there's zilch within this context that should lead someone away from their confidence in God's seal placed in our hearts or His anointing upon us. It has almost nothing to do with my beliefs about OSAS. Why? Because the text literally says God placed these things in a believers hearts. (The Seal, the confidence, the anoiting and for goodness sake Christ Himself is literally in a believers heart). God's a winner not a loser. He owns us was Paul's point.

To suggest; 'ah, but they would have thought to themselves a seal can be broken' comes from nowhere within this text. Now you imply my confidence comes from some kind of a dogmatic personal pre-supposition about OSAS.

The Biblical fact is, my confidence comes from God however, per this very passage we are supposed to be discussing (and many others).

Plus, it's not just a seal (literally The Holy Seal, in this case) that you claim can be broken but the promises of God that would need to be broken for a once Holy Sealed, Anoited of God and Christ filled believer to become un-sealed.

Plus....I could go on but will not because you're not really interacting with these points anyway.

But I will say that your OT references to the Spirit 'leaving' Saul misses the point entirely from their stated contexts in that was about God's spirit coming and going (and coming back again, I should add) for the specific purposes of God having His way with Saul's/David's kingly duties, not their salvations.

I didn't say anything about your confidence, I simply asked, were you not drawing your conclusion of the seal based on what you believed confidence meant?

In reading your post though, there is nothing from Scripture stating the seal cannot be broken. You've given your thoughts on the subject, can you give me some Scripture that shows the seal can't be broken. or the mark can't be removed?

 

[chessman]

I didn't say anything about your confidence, I simply asked, were you not drawing your conclusion of the seal based on what you believed confidence meant?

and I provided a simple answer. No!

Then I provided Scripture ironically from this same context that tells us where my confidence comes from. Simple as that.

can you give me some Scripture that shows the seal can't be broken. or the mark can't be removed?

Yes.

2 Corinthians 1:19-20 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the one who was proclaimed among you by us, by me and Silvanus and Timothy, did not become “yes” and “no,” but has become “yes” in him. For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are “yes”; therefore also through him is the “amen” to the glory of God through us.
​

Paul says, when God says yes, no does not occur later on. Jesus Christ did NOT become yes and no. He's telling them this for a reason. And it ain't so they can fear losing their salvation.

Paul is specifically telling the believer to have confidrence that when God said yes to them, when He seals us and anointed us and puts His down payment of ownership in us, He means what he says. Yes, not no.

 

[gr8grace3]

I didn't say anything about your confidence, I simply asked, were you not drawing your conclusion of the seal based on what you believed confidence meant?

In reading your post though, there is nothing from Scripture stating the seal cannot be broken. You've given your thoughts on the subject, can you give me some Scripture that shows the seal can't be broken. or the mark can't be removed?

Yes, Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Sealed~~ culminative Aorist tense~~The aorist tense is a culminative aorist, which looks at the action as a whole from the viewpoint of its completed results.

The Passive voice tells us GOD did it and we had nothing to do with the Sealing. SO it is HIS seal and we had nothing to do with the actual sealing(we just believed.)

Try to explain the culminative aorist? God has no future. He sees everything complete and finished at this moment. It is all done in His Eyes, and our future is NOW. This is the culminative aorist and How SEALED is looked at.

 

[Butch5]

and I provided a simple answer. No!

Then I provided Scripture ironically from this same context that tells us where my confidence comes from. Simple as that.





Yes.

2 Corinthians 1:19-20 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the one who was proclaimed among you by us, by me and Silvanus and Timothy, did not become “yes” and “no,” but has become “yes” in him. For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are “yes”; therefore also through him is the “amen” to the glory of God through us.
​

Paul says, when God says yes, no does not occur later on. Jesus Christ did NOT become yes and no. He's telling them this for a reason. And it ain't so they can fear losing their salvation.

Paul is specifically telling the believer to have confidrence that when God said yes to them, when He seals us and anointed us and puts His down payment of ownership in us, He means what he says. Yes, not no.

This is the same argument that is made in the OSAS arguments. All that can really be claimed from this argument is that God won't break the seal. However, I don't believe anyone is making that claim. This doesn't prove that the seal can't be broken

 

[Butch5]

Yes, Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Sealed~~ culminative Aorist tense~~The aorist tense is a culminative aorist, which looks at the action as a whole from the viewpoint of its completed results.

The Passive voice tells us GOD did it and we had nothing to do with the Sealing. SO it is HIS seal and we had nothing to do with the actual sealing(we just believed.)

Try to explain the culminative aorist? God has no future. He sees everything complete and finished at this moment. It is all done in His Eyes, and our future is NOW. This is the culminative aorist and How SEALED is looked at.

Can you please provide some Scriptural evidence to support this idea?

 

[gr8grace3]

Can you please provide some Scriptural evidence to support this idea?

Yes, Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[chessman]

. This doesn't prove that the seal can't be broken

If you agree that Paul is saying that God doesn't break this Seal (His promises are true, His yes means yes), then what do you think Paul means by adding"the glory of God through us?"

How would it bting glory to God for a sealed believer, with God's stamp of ownership upon him to break God's Seal and un-glorify God's anointing?

 

[Butch5]

Yes, Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

How does that prove any of what you said?

 

[gr8grace3]

How does that prove any of what you said?

Butch, can we use the original language to study and get a better understanding of Scripture?

 

[Butch5]

If you agree that Paul is saying that God doesn't break this Seal (His promises are true, His yes means yes), then what do you think Paul means by adding"the glory of God through us?"

How would it bting glory to God for a sealed believer, with God's stamp of ownership upon him to break God's Seal and un-glorify God's anointing?

What I think about how it would bring God glory doesn't have a bearing on whether or not the seal can be broken. Paul isn't addressing the issue of a person turning from Christ here so this passage isn't really relevant to the issue. This is why I keep harping on the subject of reasoning. If the Holy Spirit is the seal and we want to know if the Holy Spirit can be removed then we need to look at passages that deal with that subject.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, can we use the original language to study and get a better understanding of Scripture?

Are you avoiding my question? You made a statement and I asked for Scriptural support. You posted a passage without any explanation, I asked how it proves any of what you said.

 

[gr8grace3]

Are you avoiding my question? You made a statement and I asked for Scriptural support. You posted a passage without any explanation, I asked how it proves any of what you said.

Sorry you must of missed this post:


Yes, Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Sealed~~ culminative Aorist tense~~The aorist tense is a culminative aorist, which looks at the action as a whole from the viewpoint of its completed results.

The Passive voice tells us GOD did it and we had nothing to do with the Sealing. SO it is HIS seal and we had nothing to do with the actual sealing(we just believed.)

Try to explain the culminative aorist? God has no future. He sees everything complete and finished at this moment. It is all done in His Eyes, and our future is NOW. This is the culminative aorist and How SEALED is looked at.

This is the original language......Scriptural support.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've looked at a boatload of passages and none of the ones posted here say that man is a spirit.

8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8 KJV)

The passage says there is a spirit in man, see Gen 2:7.

4 The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook. (Pro 18:4 KJV)

This passage doesn't even mention the word spirit.

27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. (Pro 20:27 KJV)

The spirit of man, not man is a spirit. I've already acknowledged that there is a spirit in man see Gen 2:7

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. (Zec 12:2 KJV)

This passage says nothing about a spirit and there is no 2 Zec.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. (Act 18:25 KJV)

This passage speaks of being fervent in the spirit, it says nothing about man being a spirit.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1Co 2:11 KJV)

The passage says the spirit in man, I've already acknowledged there is a spirit in man, the passage doesn't say man is a spirit.

I think we can see that this claim is by way of inference and not what the Scriptures actually say. One can post every occurrence of the word spirit in the Scriptures and they won't post a passage that says man is a spirit, that because he's not, he's dust just as God said.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {bring...: Heb. cause to bud}
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

By choosing the archaic KJV, you think you have a defense. Is the Third Member of the Trinity a ghost or a Spirit? Obviously, He is a Spirit. As is God the Father, per John 4:24.

I was citing from the NASB, which recognizes that the Third Member of the Trinity is a Spirit, not a ghost. And the NASB uses the word "spirit" in ALL of my citations.

 

[FreeGrace]

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:13-14 KJV)

Sure. In the OT, very few believers received the Holy Spirit. David himself was in danger of losing the Holy Spirit after his sin with Bathsheba, which is why he prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him, per Psa 51:11.

However, Jesus Himself promised the coming Holy Spirit, who would be with us FOREVER, per Jn 14:16. Jesus keeps His promises.

And, there are NO verses in the NT that warn about losing the Holy Spirit, any more than there are verses that warn about losing salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

See Gen. 2 :7

See Heb 4:12.

 

[FreeGrace]

Plus, it's not just a seal (literally The Holy Seal, in this case) that you claim can be broken but the promises of God that would need to be broken for a once Holy Sealed, Anoited of God and Christ filled believer to become un-sealed.

Well said! This is the crux of the matter. The seal is God's promise to each believer, WHEN they believe. God does not ever go back on His Word.