What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[chessman]

Give some Scripture showing the seal can't be broken. Your argument is basically the God won't break the seal. I never said God would break the seal, however, as I've said, that doesn't mean the seal can't be broken. What precludes the sealed one from breaking the seal?

You're not understanding my argument which is not complicated nor has it been that God's seal given to a believer is un-breakable prior to the believer's redemption. Forget about the seal being un-breakable or not. How about God's promises, are they un-breakable?

2 Corinthians 1:20 (LEB) For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are “yes”; therefore also through him is the “amen” to the glory of God through us. ​

 

[Butch5]

You're not understanding my argument which is not complicated nor has it been that God's seal given to a believer is un-breakable prior to the believer's redemption. Forget about the seal being un-breakable or not. How about God's promises, are they un-breakable?

2 Corinthians 1:20 (LEB) For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are “yes”; therefore also through him is the “amen” to the glory of God through us. ​

Will God break them? No. But, that doesn't mean they are guaranteed if the believer doesn't remain faithful. However, this thread was about whether or not hte seal could be broken so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[gr8grace3]

Will God break them? No. But, that doesn't mean they are guaranteed if the believer doesn't remain faithful. However, this thread was about whether or not hte seal could be broken so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

2 Cor 1:22~~who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).

Even if we are faithless, it requires God to break the seal. God has to break it if we are faithless. And He says HE won't.

 

[jeff77]

If Salvation cannot be lost then why would it even need a seal?

 

[Butch5]

2 Cor 1:22~~who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).

Even if we are faithless, it requires God to break the seal. God has to break it if we are faithless. And He says HE won't.

That's where you're wrong. As I said, the Greek word doesn't carry the idea of something that is certain, it means down payment. Paul said if we deny Him He will deny us.

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (2Ti 2:12-13 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace]

No, it doesn't. You're evaluating my position based on your understanding of Scripture. You believe OSAS therefore you believe that one cannot lost the Holy Spirit. It's on that basis that you analyze my position. However, the premise that one cannot lose the Holy Spirit is flawed.

Where is your evidence for your assumption?

btw, the reason I believe OSAS is directly because of Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

You give the proof. It's the giving of the Holy Spirit that is the seal, the Spirit Himself is not a seal.

Scripture directly says that He is the seal. The "emblem" of God's PLEDGE (promise) FOR the day of redemption.

btw, "seal" can be something that seals something, or it can be an emblem which represents something. The Holy Spirit is God's pledge or promise FOR the day of redemption.

If my understanding of the Eph and 2 Cor verses is wrong, it is encumbent upon you to explain how and why.

As I said, it's the giving of the Spirit that is the seal and we see that the Spirit left Saul, thus the Holy Spirit can depart from a person.

Where is the evidence? Your assumptions about an inanimate object (seal) and applying that idea to the Holy Spirit is badly flawed. Where does the Scripture teach that God removes the Holy Spirit from any believer.

btw, I am fully aware of the fact that King David prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit from him. But that was in the Age of Israel. Before Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to all believers, per John 14, very few OT believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I'm speaking from the perspective of the NT. Which epistle warns of the loss of the Holy Spirit?

The answer is: none of them do.

 

[FreeGrace]

If Salvation cannot be lost then why would it even need a seal?

To make the statement to that effect. And the seal is the Holy Spirit, who indwells every believer. That is God's promise or pledge FOR the day of redemption.

This is irrefutable. God have His Holy Spirit to all believers as a pledge for the day of redemption.

So now, the question is: Does God renege on His promises?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is God's promise or pledge FOR the day of redemption.

This is irrefutable. God have His Holy Spirit to all believers as a pledge for the day of redemption.

So now, the question is: Does God renege on His promises?

Yes, when the condition for the promise--in this case, faith--is no longer being upheld. But so many are afraid to accept that because they erroneously think that makes salvation a works gospel. But I'm pretty sure Paul said it is doing the works of the law that constitutes a damnable works gospel, not the necessity to have, and continue in, faith. But if you want to show us the passage that explains how even continuing to have faith is part of Paul's damnable works gospel I'm all ears.

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, when the condition for the promise--in this case, faith--is no longer being upheld.

I believe you are adding to Scripture. There is no condition on God's seal FOR the day of redemption. One is sealed with the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe. It's a promise, or pledge from God to His children FOR the day of redemption.

God does not go back on His promise. None of them.

But so many are afraid to accept that because they erroneously think that makes salvation a works gospel. But I'm pretty sure Paul said it is doing the works of the law that constitutes a damnable works gospel, not the necessity to have, and continue in, faith.

How come there are no verses at all that state that one's faith must continue in order to stay saved?????

But if you want to show us the passage that explains how even continuing to have faith is part of Paul's damnable works gospel I'm all ears.

Red herring.

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

I don't know how this supports your view of "conditional security". The Greek for "hold fast" is:

katechō
1) to hold back, detain, retain
1a) from going away
1b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1b1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making hisappearance
1b2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head theship
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
2b) to possess

One is saved by possessing (believing) the gospel. They are immediately saved. There are zero verses that unambiguously claim that one's salvation is based on continuing faith. That is simply a wrong assumption.

The warning passages can be easily explained by loss of reward, not loss of salvation.

And one should not forget that those who have believed HAVE eternal life. And eternal LIFE cannot exist in the second DEATH, where all unbelievers (those who never believed) will reside.

There are so many reasons to reject the notion that salvation can be "lost", or forfeited, or rescinded. No verse even suggests that.

Remember that God IS eternal life (1 Jn 5:20), and He gives His life to thos who believe, WHEN they believe. And no Scripture says that He removes His life from anyone who has it.

And, Scripture is clear; He has given His Holy Spirit as a promise or pledge FOR the day of redemption. Do you have any verses that teach that He removes the Holy Spirit from anyone? Recall that Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with us forever (Jn 14:16).

Unless one can exegete these verses I've cited to demonstrate that they say something other than I think they do, there is no reason to accept your view.

Your view cannot cite a single verse that unambiguously claims that salvation can be lost. Period.

 

[Butch5]

Where is your evidence for your assumption?

btw, the reason I believe OSAS is directly because of Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

There is no assumption, I've posted Scripture showing it.

You have no Scripture that shows that the seal cannot be broken and Scripture shows that seals can be broke.

I reject OSAS on Jesus' words among others.

13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. (Luk 8:13 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

2 Cor 1:22~~who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).

Even if we are faithless, it requires God to break the seal. God has to break it if we are faithless. And He says HE won't.

Hey, I apologize, responded to this post in post 85 but I though it was Freegrace that I was responding to. I misread the name, I guess I just saw grace and didn't distinguish. You and I hadn't discussed the "guarantee" definition of the word arrhabon, it was with Freegrace that I had that discussion.

 

[Butch5]

To make the statement to that effect. And the seal is the Holy Spirit, who indwells every believer. That is God's promise or pledge FOR the day of redemption.

This is irrefutable. God have His Holy Spirit to all believers as a pledge for the day of redemption.

So now, the question is: Does God renege on His promises?

Where did God say that once a person receives the Holy Spirit there is nothing that they can do that will ever change that? Paul said,

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. {followed...: or, went with them}
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. {our...: Gr. our figures}
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {ensamples: or, types}
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1Co 10:1-12 KJV)

Paul said that the things that happened to God's people in the OT were written for our example and admonition that we don't behave as they did, so that thinking he stands one may fall.

Given that, let's look at what God did say.

KJV Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them. {unto this...: or, thou shalt cause this people to inherit the land, etc}
7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. {prosper: or, do wisely}
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success (Jos 1:1-8 KJV)

God told Joshua that He would never leave him nor forsake him, what that unconditional? No, it was dependent on him keeping God's commands. Do we have proof of this? Yes, we do.

KJV Joshua 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel. {Achan: also called, Achar} {Zabdi: also called, Zimri}
2 And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is beside Bethaven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
3 And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; and make not all the people to labour thither; for they are but few. {about...: Heb. about two thousand men, or, about three thousand men}
4 So there went up thither of the people about three thousand men: and they fled before the men of Ai.
5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water. {in...: or, in Morad}
6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
8 O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies! {backs: Heb. necks}
9 For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? {liest: Heb. fallest}
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you. (Jos 7:1-13 KJV)

God told Joshua, after saying He would never leave him nor forsake him that He wouldn't be with him any more unless he removed the accursed thing from among them. It's clear that the statement was not unconditional.

As I pointed out, Paul said these things were written for our example and our admonition that we might not do the same things. Israel sinned and God turned away from them, the Christian is no better, he has no special privileges, Scripture says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Israel were God's people, they sinned and He turned away from them. Christians are God's people, when they sin there's no reason to expect special treatment that wasn't given to the Jews.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe you are adding to Scripture. There is no condition on God's seal FOR the day of redemption. One is sealed with the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe. It's a promise, or pledge from God to His children FOR the day of redemption.

So, faith is not the condition for a person getting saved? "When they believe" is not a condition for receiving the promise of salvation on the Day of Wrath?

How come there are no verses at all that state that one's faith must continue in order to stay saved?????

There are no verses that state that for YOU, because you have rationalized them away by changing definitions, etc.

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you," (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Paul tells them plainly that they are saved by the gospel he preached to them IF they hold fast the word he preached to them. That's a condition for being saved by the gospel--you have to hold fast in it. These are the plain words of scripture. The only way to make them go away is to start redefining terms, etc, etc, etc. in order to arrive at the predetermined outcome you are trying to get.

I'm not debating this with you. I'm posting for the benefit of anybody who may be reading this. I want them to know the truth of what the Bible plainly says.

I don't know how this supports your view of "conditional security". The Greek for "hold fast" is:

katechō
1) to hold back, detain, retain
1a) from going away
1b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1b1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making hisappearance
1b2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head theship
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
2b) to possess

And how does this change the fact that Paul plainly said you have to do whatever 'hold fast' means in order to be saved by the gospel? The point is, Paul says there is a condition attached to receiving the promise of salvation on the Day of Wrath. You say there isn't.

One is saved by possessing (believing) the gospel. They are immediately saved. There are zero verses that unambiguously claim that one's salvation is based on continuing faith. That is simply a wrong assumption.

The warning passages can be easily explained by loss of reward, not loss of salvation.

Ah, I see. Let's redefine 'saved' in 1 Corinthians 15: 2 in order to make what you say true. The truly sad part is you have to do that to half a dozen other scriptures also to protect a predetermined conclusion that the scriptures aren't talking about salvation, but something else. I say let's just read what the passage plainly say in the context of all the Bible.

Your view cannot cite a single verse that unambiguously claims that salvation can be lost. Period.

We've been showing several scriptures that plainly say that salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith you started out with. That means one can lose their salvation by not continuing to believe. Period. A third grader could understand this simple logic written in plain words in our Bibles. OSAS requires that it step in and help everybody see that these many scriptures really don't mean what they so plainly say. They have to do that because there are no plain scriptures that say you do not have to continue in your faith to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

 

[Butch5]

The warning passages can be easily explained by loss of reward, not loss of salvation.

What rewards are they that one would loose? I only see one reward.

10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Isa 40:10 KJV)

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Isa 62:11 KJV)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev 22:12 KJV)

Notice when the Lord returns "reward" is singular, the only reward is salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no assumption, I've posted Scripture showing it.

You've shown no evidence of your view.

You have no Scripture that shows that the seal cannot be broken and Scripture shows that seals can be broke.

Scripture tells us that the seal IS the Holy Spirit. And you want to argue that He can be broken??? Really??

I reject OSAS on Jesus' words among others.

In fact, Jesus taught OSAS. Specifically in Jn 10:28-29.

13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. (Luk 8:13 NKJ)

Nothing here about loss of salvation. What is being spoken of is loss of faith (believed for a while).

 

[FreeGrace]

Where did God say that once a person receives the Holy Spirit there is nothing that they can do that will ever change that? Paul said,

First, let's consider what Jesus did say about the promised Holy Spirit:

Jn 14:16 -
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of Jesus when He promised that the Holy Spirit would be with those who believe FOREVER.

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. {followed...: or, went with them}
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. {our...: Gr. our figures}
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {ensamples: or, types}
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1Co 10:1-12 KJV)

Paul said that the things that happened to God's people in the OT were written for our example and admonition that we don't behave as they did, so that thinking he stands one may fall.

Sure. Believers fall all the time. But where is the specific wording that says that one's salvation will be lost IF one loses their faith? There aren't any.

Given that, let's look at what God did say.

But, there is nothing in 1 Cor 10 about loss of salvation.

KJV Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them. {unto this...: or, thou shalt cause this people to inherit the land, etc}
7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. {prosper: or, do wisely}
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success (Jos 1:1-8 KJV)

God told Joshua that He would never leave him nor forsake him, what that unconditional? No, it was dependent on him keeping God's commands. Do we have proof of this? Yes, we do.

But again…nothing about loss of salvation.

KJV Joshua 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel. {Achan: also called, Achar} {Zabdi: also called, Zimri}
2 And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is beside Bethaven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
3 And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; and make not all the people to labour thither; for they are but few. {about...: Heb. about two thousand men, or, about three thousand men}
4 So there went up thither of the people about three thousand men: and they fled before the men of Ai.
5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water. {in...: or, in Morad}
6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
8 O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies! {backs: Heb. necks}
9 For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? {liest: Heb. fallest}
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you. (Jos 7:1-13 KJV)

God told Joshua, after saying He would never leave him nor forsake him that He wouldn't be with him any more unless he removed the accursed thing from among them. It's clear that the statement was not unconditional.

Absolutely nothing at all about loss of salvation. These passages in the OT are about God's temporal blessings, not loss of eternal salvation.

As I pointed out, Paul said these things were written for our example and our admonition that we might not do the same things. Israel sinned and God turned away from them, the Christian is no better, he has no special privileges, Scripture says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Israel were God's people, they sinned and He turned away from them. Christians are God's people, when they sin there's no reason to expect special treatment that wasn't given to the Jews.

Loss of blessings and reward is NOT loss of salvation.

You've proven nothing here about loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

So, faith is not the condition for a person getting saved?

Of course it is.

"When they believe" is not a condition for receiving the promise of salvation on the Day of Wrath?

When they believe is the moment they believe. They receive the promised Holy Spirit, who will be with us FOREVER, according to Jesus in Jn 14:16. I choose to believe what Jesus said. God's seal of eternal security is the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Combine that with the promise in 2 Ti 2:13; that God cannot deny Himself. Those with the Holy Spirit will not be denied.

There are no verses that state that for YOU, because you have rationalized them away by changing definitions, etc.

We've already been through that false claim. It is the loss of salvation ilk that has no verses to support that view.

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you," (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Paul tells them plainly that they are saved by the gospel he preached to them IF they hold fast the word he preached to them. That's a condition for being saved by the gospel--you have to hold fast in it. These are the plain words of scripture. The only way to make them go away is to start redefining terms, etc, etc, etc. in order to arrive at the predetermined outcome you are trying to get.

Actually, the Greek word means to "possess". What is it that one possesses when they believe? The promised Holy Spirit who will be with us forever. NO CONDITIONS with Jesus' promise.

I'm not debating this with you. I'm posting for the benefit of anybody who may be reading this. I want them to know the truth of what the Bible plainly says.

There is no debate. Scripture is clear throughout. Those saved are sealed by the promised Holy Spirit, who will be with us forever. I do hope others read this so they can see that there is no support for your view.

And how does this change the fact that Paul plainly said you have to do whatever 'hold fast' means in order to be saved by the gospel?

Are you "holding fast" to the indwelling Holy Spirit???

Further, Paul wrote 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13, 4:30. These verses GUARANTEE the believer will see the day of redemption. Your view denies what Paul wrote.

We've been showing several scriptures that plainly say that salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith you started out with.

Your claim here is false. No verse says that salvation is conditioned on continuing in the faith. Zero at last count.

That means one can lose their salvation by not continuing to believe. Period.

No it doesn't. Period.

A third grader could understand this simple logic written in plain words in our Bibles. OSAS requires that it step in and help everybody see that these many scriptures really don't mean what they so plainly say.

In fact, OSAS properly explains what the verses mean. And NONE say what you believe.

They have to do that because there are no plain scriptures that say you do not have to continue in your faith to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

The GUARANTEE is found in Eph 1:13, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. But your view denies those very clear verses. ;)

 

[gr8grace3]

So, faith is not the condition for a person getting saved? "When they believe" is not a condition for receiving the promise of salvation on the Day of Wrath?



There are no verses that state that for YOU, because you have rationalized them away by changing definitions, etc.

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you," (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Paul tells them plainly that they are saved by the gospel he preached to them IF they hold fast the word he preached to them. That's a condition for being saved by the gospel--you have to hold fast in it. These are the plain words of scripture. The only way to make them go away is to start redefining terms, etc, etc, etc. in order to arrive at the predetermined outcome you are trying to get.

I'm not debating this with you. I'm posting for the benefit of anybody who may be reading this. I want them to know the truth of what the Bible plainly says.



And how does this change the fact that Paul plainly said you have to do whatever 'hold fast' means in order to be saved by the gospel? The point is, Paul says there is a condition attached to receiving the promise of salvation on the Day of Wrath. You say there isn't.



Ah, I see. Let's redefine 'saved' in 1 Corinthians 15: 2 in order to make what you say true. The truly sad part is you have to do that to half a dozen other scriptures also to protect a predetermined conclusion that the scriptures aren't talking about salvation, but something else. I say let's just read what the passage plainly say in the context of all the Bible.



We've been showing several scriptures that plainly say that salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith you started out with. That means one can lose their salvation by not continuing to believe. Period. A third grader could understand this simple logic written in plain words in our Bibles. OSAS requires that it step in and help everybody see that these many scriptures really don't mean what they so plainly say. They have to do that because there are no plain scriptures that say you do not have to continue in your faith to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

1 Corinthians 15:1–2 (NASB95)


1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand(Positional sanctification),

2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain....

Stand~~
istnmi 2476 perfect active indicative

Perfect~~ Expresses the results of the action to continue to exist.

Indicative~~This mood is a mood of certainty with respect to the completion of the action of the verb.

" In which also you stand"~~we will continue to stand and with certainty we will continue to stand.


*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

Now verse 2 of 1 Cor 15 can't take us out of our "standing". It actually is the third grade logic that says verse 2 takes us out of our standing. It takes some spiritual discernment to read vs 2 because vs 1 just set up our "continued standing."

New American Standard Bible
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Vs 1 sets up our unmovable standing in Christ......positional truth.

Vs 2 sets up our experiential sanctification in this life....experiential sanctification. Our rewards in our salvation.

On the other hand, ask a third grader what "never" means and what "no one will snatch them out of my hand" means.

New American Standard Bible
John 10:28~~and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

 

[FreeGrace]

What rewards are they that one would loose? I only see one reward.

10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Isa 40:10 KJV)

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Isa 62:11 KJV)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev 22:12 KJV)

Notice when the Lord returns "reward" is singular, the only reward is salvation.

If salvation is a reward, then we have to earn it. Just look up the definition and use of "reward". One must earn or deserve a reward. At least you are being honest about your view here.

We are saved by grace (not by earning it) through faith. But you say differently.

 

[Butch5]

If salvation is a reward, then we have to earn it. Just look up the definition and use of "reward". One must earn or deserve a reward. At least you are being honest about your view here.

We are saved by grace (not by earning it) through faith. But you say differently.

didn't you read the rest of Ephesians 2?

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10 KJV).

Faith doesn't preclude works, that idea comes from a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on works. Luther taught that works play no role in salvation but used Paul's teaching on works out of context. Paul was teaching his converts that it was not necessary for them to keep the Law in addition to faith in Christ, which is what was being claimed by the Judaizers. We also know that James said 'faith without works is dead.' Thus, no works, no faith.