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What does it mean for the Christian to stumble?

Jethro Bodine

Jethro Bodine

Member
"...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

How can telling believers they can stop believing and they will still be saved, and they then do that, not causing someone who believes in Christ to stumble. If that isn't it, what is?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
"...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

How can telling believers they can stop believing and they will still be saved, and they then do that, not causing someone who believes in Christ to stumble. If that isn't it, what is?
Click to expand...

  • Stumble is a reference in the scriptures for turning from [faith in] the Lord; to fall away through enticing to sin.
Here is how the word is used by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21 NKJV

...yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately
falls away. Matthew 13:21 NASB

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Matthew 13:21

This word in the original is -

Stumble -Strong's G4624 - skandalizō

to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
  1. to entice to sin
  2. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
    1. to cause to fall away
    2. to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
    3. to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
  3. since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
    1. to cause one displeasure at a thing
    2. to make indignant
    3. to be displeased, indignant

JLB
 
I think an example would be Oprah. She has many "spirit" classes with many false teaching from "spiritual teachers". Causing hearts to stumble in the truth of Jesus.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
"...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

How can telling believers they can stop believing and they will still be saved, and they then do that, not causing someone who believes in Christ to stumble. If that isn't it, what is?
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm naive but I can't say that I have ever heard someone say or preach "you can stop beleiving and still be saved" is there something I'm not getting?
 
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Wrg1405 said:
Maybe I'm naive but I can't say that I have ever heard someone say or preach "you can stop beleiving and still be saved" is there something I'm not getting?
Click to expand...

Hang around and you will hear several folks try and teach you this.

They will try and convince you that you can renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, or become a homosexual or muderer or even take the mark of the beast, and still be saved.

It's called Hyper-grace.

Here is their monumental foundational scripture they use to teach this "doctrine".

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

This scripture "over-rules" all of the New Testament writings of Jesus and the Apostles.

It is from this scripture they teach eternal life is irrevocable since it is a gift from God, even though eternal life is not mentioned in that verse.


JLB
 
JLB said:
Hang around and you will hear several folks try and teach you this.

They will try and convince you that you can renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, or become a homosexual or muderer or even take the mark of the beast, and still be saved.

It's called Hyper-grace.

Here is their monumental foundational scripture they use to teach this "doctrine".

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

This scripture "over-rules" all of the New Testament writings of Jesus and the Apostles.

It is from this scripture they teach eternal life is irrevocable since it is a gift from God, even though eternal life is not mentioned in that verse.


JLB
Click to expand...
You said it before I could as it is hyper grace teaching and people need to look up "hyper grace" in order to understand how deceiving it's teachings are.
 
JLB said:
Hang around and you will hear several folks try and teach you this.

They will try and convince you that you can renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, or become a homosexual or muderer or even take the mark of the beast, and still be saved.

It's called Hyper-grace.

Here is their monumental foundational scripture they use to teach this "doctrine".

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

This scripture "over-rules" all of the New Testament writings of Jesus and the Apostles.

It is from this scripture they teach eternal life is irrevocable since it is a gift from God, even though eternal life is not mentioned in that verse.


JLB
Click to expand...
I have to be honest mate. There is some stuff in the hyper-grace message that really helped me and bought me back.

Even Michael Brown who has issues with this theology has agreed that Dr Paul Ellis and he agree that they both hate sin and focus on Christ" Yet Mr Brown still calls him a brother in Christ.

I have to be honest there is some stuff that really helped me and some stuff I do not agree with. I have not got carried away with some of the stuff they say. Maybe God has protected my mind whilst really wanting to get to know him and his ways.

If you can show me that they preach "you can renounce Jesus as Lord, or become a homoexual or murderer or take the mark of the beast and still be saved" then I will read it. As said though I can't say I've seen that.
 
JLB,

Just so you know I would never teach you could renounce Jesus and still be saved. It's different from denying Jesus (like Peter did out of fear)
 
Jethro Bodine said:
"...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

How can telling believers they can stop believing and they will still be saved, and they then do that, not causing someone who believes in Christ to stumble. If that isn't it, what is?
Click to expand...
It is definitely a problem to cause an adult to stumble but this verse in Matthews is concerning the subversion and corruption of children....the punishment of which is severally punished!
 
Greetings JLB,

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV
Heb 7:21 The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) quoting from OT
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent "nacham,", Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

First you must assume The NT was originally written in Hebrew...so it is wise to consult the correct primary language and the primary word that was written. "Nacham" means to comfort.

View attachment 9380

Here is the word in an ancient Hebrew lexicon, the meaning of each letter reading right to left reads" Across the nations-Outside-Flows" suggests someone brings 'comfort or pity' to those outside in the world.

The Romans verse is negated with this in mind....
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God not comforting.

What this means, I have no idea....one would be foolish to build a doctrine on a single verse...the Bible tells us how to read and study scripture...there are several chapters devoted to this in the OT

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1094.htm

Shalom
 
Jethro Bodine said:
"...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB)

How can telling believers they can stop believing and they will still be saved, and they then do that, not causing someone who believes in Christ to stumble. If that isn't it, what is?
Click to expand...
-
-
Jethro Bodine....= You stumble a believer when YOU try to make them believe that they are to continually save themselves with their faith, instead of teaching them the truth that God SAVED them, when they Trusted Christ., and they were born again.
For some reason, JB.....you have trouble realizing that salvation is not a work in progress, its a finished BLOOD atonement.
The work in progress is...."he that began a good work in you, will be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT".
So, is that you?
ARE you God?
Not QUITE !!
JB....You are teaching that YOU complete the work, that you complete the faith, and your bible says NO, THAT IS WRONG...= GOD COMPLETES IT...... = so stop teaching Galatians 1:8

I suspect you came to your extreme doctrinal misunderstanding by reading commentaries written by the person that taught you to believe in a false gospel.
Let me show you the real one...
Hebrews 9:12...""Jesus HAVING.......OBTAINED.......ETERNAL.....REDEMPTION... FOR .....*US*.

SEE THAT WORD ETERNAL?
SEE THAT WORD OBTAINED?
SEE THAT WORD REDEMPTION
SEE THAT WORD "US".
JESUS DOES THIS, not your "faith".

JB.....Why do you not believe that REDEMPTION is eternal, and that "Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith"., AND NOT YOU?
I'll tell you why.
Because the person that taught you that, lied to you.
Those commentaries you are using, are Galatians 1:8

Now here is the supreme Irony of your current situation.
The irony, is, you just posted a Thread, and you are the person the Thread is talking about, and you dont realize it.
How about that?
Now THAT, is the "Horns of a Dilemma"...and you hooked yourself, with your own theology.
You are like King David asking The Prophet Nathan, "who is this man", and Nathan says, YOU ARE THE MAN.....YOU !
So, in the case of the person trying to stumble Christians on a forum, = you are the man, JB.
You.
 
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Kidron said:
Jethro Bodine....= You stumble a believer when YOU try to make them believe that they are to continually save themselves with their faith, instead of teaching them the truth that God SAVED them, when they Trusted Christ., and they were born again.
Click to expand...
But telling a believer they do not have to continue to trust in Christ altogether (hyper-grace doctrine), and them doing that, is not causing them to stumble? What's the difference between telling a believer to trust in something else besides what Christ did for them (what you think I'm saying), and what you say, that they can stop trusting in Christ altogether?

Surely, telling a believer to trust in something else besides Christ is no different than telling a believer they can believe in nothing, right? So if I'm causing believers to stumble by what you think I'm saying and subjecting myself to a punishment worse than having a millstone tied around my neck and being drowned in the sea certainly you are too, Kidron.
 
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rthom7 said:
Greetings JLB,

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV
Heb 7:21 The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) quoting from OT
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent "nacham,", Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

First you must assume The NT was originally written in Hebrew...so it is wise to consult the correct primary language and the primary word that was written. "Nacham" means to comfort.

View attachment 9380

Here is the word in an ancient Hebrew lexicon, the meaning of each letter reading right to left reads" Across the nations-Outside-Flows" suggests someone brings 'comfort or pity' to those outside in the world.

The Romans verse is negated with this in mind....
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God not comforting.

What this means, I have no idea....one would be foolish to build a doctrine on a single verse...the Bible tells us how to read and study scripture...there are several chapters devoted to this in the OT

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1094.htm

Shalom
Click to expand...
Yes, I think I've heard this before.
What Paul is actually saying is God does not regret, as in a change of mind, the Israelites gifts and calling, even though they have been utterly unfaithful to them.
Kinda pulls the rug right out from under the argument that Paul was saying that the gift of eternal life is never taken back, even in the case of a return to unbelief.
 
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rthom7 said:
Greetings JLB,

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV
Heb 7:21 The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) quoting from OT
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent "nacham,", Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

First you must assume The NT was originally written in Hebrew...so it is wise to consult the correct primary language and the primary word that was written. "Nacham" means to comfort.

View attachment 9380

Here is the word in an ancient Hebrew lexicon, the meaning of each letter reading right to left reads" Across the nations-Outside-Flows" suggests someone brings 'comfort or pity' to those outside in the world.

The Romans verse is negated with this in mind....
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God not comforting.

What this means, I have no idea....one would be foolish to build a doctrine on a single verse...the Bible tells us how to read and study scripture...there are several chapters devoted to this in the OT

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1094.htm

Shalom
Click to expand...
First, why assume the NT was written in Hebrew? Second, since it is assumed that the NT was written in Hebrew, then you must also assume what word was used. But in doing that, there is no basis for selecting that particular word. Third, all the other words in context must also be assumed, so one could make a verse say whatever they wanted. What are the assumed words for "gifts" and "calling"?
 
Wrg1405 said:
I have to be honest mate. There is some stuff in the hyper-grace message that really helped me and bought me back.

Even Michael Brown who has issues with this theology has agreed that Dr Paul Ellis and he agree that they both hate sin and focus on Christ" Yet Mr Brown still calls him a brother in Christ.

I have to be honest there is some stuff that really helped me and some stuff I do not agree with. I have not got carried away with some of the stuff they say. Maybe God has protected my mind whilst really wanting to get to know him and his ways.

If you can show me that they preach "you can renounce Jesus as Lord, or become a homosexual or murderer or take the mark of the beast and still be saved" then I will read it. As said though I can't say I've seen that.
Click to expand...

Make no mistake, God's grace is far reaching and amazing. He brought me back from a backsliden lifestyle more than once, as He never stopped loving me and drawing me back. I'm a living example that the goodness of God, brings us to repentance.

However, I can assure you that both grace and truth come through Jesus Christ. He died for us, so that we could be reconciled to God. He took our place, in taking the punishment for sin, He did not deserve, so we could have the life with God, that we don't deserve.

His mercy endures forever.

But He will never compromise truth, to cheapen grace.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The truth of His grace is; This gift is given to those who believe.
The truth of His grace is; This gift is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


The truth is: Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer partakers of this gift which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away [Strong's G868 - aphistēmi]. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing [Strong's G868 - aphistēmi] from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


JLB
 
rthom7 said:
Greetings JLB,

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV
Heb 7:21 The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) quoting from OT
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent "nacham,", Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

First you must assume The NT was originally written in Hebrew...so it is wise to consult the correct primary language and the primary word that was written. "Nacham" means to comfort.

View attachment 9380

Here is the word in an ancient Hebrew lexicon, the meaning of each letter reading right to left reads" Across the nations-Outside-Flows" suggests someone brings 'comfort or pity' to those outside in the world.

The Romans verse is negated with this in mind....
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God not comforting.

What this means, I have no idea....one would be foolish to build a doctrine on a single verse...the Bible tells us how to read and study scripture...there are several chapters devoted to this in the OT

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1094.htm

Shalom
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing, your word study with me.

I'm curious as to why you didn't do a comparison word study of the Greek word used in this verse.

  • without repentance : Strong's G278 - ametamelētos - not repentant of, unregretted

It's used in two places in the NT.

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
2 Corinthians 7:10

The godly sorrow we experience, by the conviction of the Spirit and the word, should not be regretted, since it produces repentance that leads to salvation.

For the gifts and the calling of God are [without repentance] irrevocable. Romans 11:29

To me, based on the meaning of the word used here, this verse is saying... God does not regret giving His gifts or His calling, even though some may not believe, and may not respond to the calling.

The context supports this.


19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:19-29

Look at the language used in these verse's, preceding verse 29.



  • Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.
  • if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
  • Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

God does not regret calling Israel, nor giving them gifts, even though some were broken off through unbelief, because through them, the Gentiles heard the Gospel and multitudes believed.

The idea conveyed by this word is: the small amount of suffering because of the one thing, is not to be regretted because the reward and the joy in the end is worth it.

The idea of irrevocable eternal life, that can never be lost under any circumstances is not found in a thorough study of the scriptures.

In fact, one short sentence from our Lord, refutes this far fetched notion.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The branches are at one time "in Him", then later on they are thrown into the fire and burned.



JLB
 
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