What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

[chessman]

Could you please tell me how you understand John 5:28:29

Sure (though I'm not quite sure why you ask) and I'd love for you to address my previously posted questions to you at some point.

Two Resurrections
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.​

[see the first resurrection John vissioned in Rev 20:1-10 and the second in Rev 20:11:15. I'm talking about the 2nd one.]

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming [and later came at His death and resurrection of the saints in the tombs] , in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

[Jesus is describing the first resurrection in John 5:28 of "all the saints who are in the tombs" (dead righteous Jewish saints, like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, John the Baptist, etc.), not the final resurrection of those still alive then (like John himself) or people in later centuries.]
I'm not sure of your point with this passage, though.

Also, what about the ending of the Wedding Banquet?
Mathew 22:1-13

What about it?

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”​

None of these people (their souls that is) were dead even though their bones (their dead bodies) were in the grave. But again, this isn't after what occurs at the final judgment of the wicked. But, to me, proves that the body can die, yet the soul (the person's non-physical part) lives on. If that's your point, I don't disagree.

It seems to me that the destruction will not be total and ending, but will be eternal., forever in that state.

Via what passage(s)?

Do you think Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were in their final state then (their bodies dead, yet their souls alive?

I can only guess at your point.

Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

It's not my position (nor anyone I know of) who thinks there will not be weeping and nashing of teeth in Hell. Destruction is fearful and painful. The real question is, however, do the post-judged wicked get led to destruction or not? I say they (the wicked) are destroyed in Hell. I'm sure they weep and nash their teeth as they are destroyed.

What's your point?
You first said their souls live forever in Hell.
Then changed (or clarified) that it is their 'spirits' that live forever in Hell.

If you are using this passage for support of either claim, I just don't see the evidence.

Do spirts have teeth? (And no, I'm not kidding with this question)

 

[Randy]

Can you provide any verse(s) where "apóllymi"
means to "torment" the body or soul?
That is a different word, right?


What expresses the immortality of the soul?

Paul said we seek immortality.

Romans 2:7-8 to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.​

Are you suggesting that the unrighteous souls indeed have immortality and therefore God cannot actually destroy/apóllymi (which means permanent absolute destruction) their souls in Hell?



If the resurrected bodies of the wicked can be destroyed by God (and God alone), cannot also their souls be destroyed?

Even if God can destroy spirit he doesn't appear to do so as tormented as read in REV suggests suffering or awareness. Those that die apart from the Lord will never be seen on this earth again. They perish.

 

[Randy]

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

[chessman]

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

Luckily, for Biblical inerrancy, the Devil and his demons are not the humans Jesus is talking about destroying their bodies and souls in Matt 10:28.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure (though I'm not quite sure why you ask) and I'd love for you to address my previously posted questions to you at some point.

Two Resurrections
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.​

[see the first resurrection John vissioned in Rev 20:1-10 and the second in Rev 20:11:15. I'm talking about the 2nd one.]

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming [and later came at His death and resurrection of the saints in the tombs] , in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

[Jesus is describing the first resurrection in John 5:28 of "all the saints who are in the tombs" (dead righteous Jewish saints, like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, John the Baptist, etc.), not the final resurrection of those still alive then (like John himself) or people in later centuries.]
I'm not sure of your point with this passage, though.

What about it?

I reread the O.P. because your questions became confusing, but I did understand it.

I posted John 5:28-29 because it talks of the end times. You believe it refers to the dead that ascended out of the grave after Jesus died. Whichever is correct doesn't interest me. In EITHER CASE, the dead in the tomb will also rise, bodily, at the end of the age to be judged.

The reason I brought it up is because I DO NOT believe the body and soul will be destroyed. I believe there is a hell and that the persons who go there will be there for eternity.

In John 5:28-29 Jesus says that the dead will be judged. The ones that did good deeds will rise to life, and the ones who did evil deeds to condemnation.

NOWHERE does Jesus ever say that a person just disappears. The concept I find in the N.T. is that both the "good" and the "evil", as Jesus called them, will live forever. One will have ETERNAL LIFE, and the other eternal damnation.

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

None of these people (their souls that is) were dead even though their bones (their dead bodies) were in the grave. But again, this isn't after what occurs at the final judgment of the wicked. But, to me, proves that the body can die, yet the soul (the person's non-physical part) lives on. If that's your point, I don't disagree.

Agreed. The body dies, but the spirit lives forever, or the soul if you're a dichotomist.
I also don't find this to be anything to argue about, BTW. But, as I've said, I believe in the trichotomy of the person.

Via what passage(s)?

I made this statement to which you ask via what passages...:

It seems to me that the destruction will not be total and ending, but will be eternal., forever in that state.

I base my beliefs, for this matter, very much on the study of God.
I did, however post both John 5:28-29 and Mathew 22:13 as proof texts.

Jesus did not say that one would be TOTALLY DESTROYED, could we say annihialated instead?
I understand both passages to mean that we will go on foreve, wherever we end up.

There are two views as to what happens to a person after Death.
They both come from theology and are not easily gleened from reading the N.T.
The Sadducees, for instance, didn't even believe in life after Death.
So, I have to trust biblical scholars on this and then decide which belief makes more sense to me.

Do you think Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were in their final state then (their bodies dead, yet their souls alive?

I can only guess at your point.

Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

It's not my position (nor anyone I know of) who thinks there will not be weeping and nashing of teeth in Hell. Destruction is fearful and painful. The real question is, however, do the post-judged wicked get led to destruction or not? I say they (the wicked) are destroyed in Hell. I'm sure they weep and nash their teeth as they are destroyed.

Abraham and all the saved persons from the O.T. and before the Atonement were awaiting Jesus' sacrifice in Abraham's Bossom.
Luke 16:19-31

The Condemned were already in hell. Further support for my belief that the "person" lives forever.
I don't believe they're destroyed, if by this you mean annihilated.

What's your point?
You first said their souls live forever in Hell.
Then changed (or clarified) that it is their 'spirits' that live forever in Hell.

If you are using this passage for support of either claim, I just don't see the evidence.

Do spirts have teeth? (And no, I'm not kidding with this question)

If you believe in the dichotom theory, then you would say that the SOUL lives forever.
If you believe in the trchotmy theory, then you would say that the SPIRIT lives forever.

As I said, you could prove either case with verses.
I did NOT come to my belief wholly through the bible.
Although, as I said, I do believe Jesus NEVER said that one is annihilated.

As far as teeth...
Sure spirits have teeth.
We could recognize persons in heaven BEFORE we get our glorified bodies at the end of time.
So, we will look like ourselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes the partial quote (little +quote link at the bottom of every post quotes only the portion of a post that's highlighted at the time you press it. You can then highlight multiple sections (one at a time) and insert them all in the reply window. It's more organized than clicking "reply". But takes some getting use to.

Aha!
But I lose all the rest....

Right??

 

[Randy]

Luckily, for Biblical inerrancy, the Devil and his demons are not the humans Jesus is talking about destroying their bodies and souls in Matt 10:28.

They are spirits isn't it your case that the lake of fire destroys spirit?Apparently not in itself. Besides I also gave scripture about mankind also being thrown into the lake of fire .

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes the partial quote (little +quote link at the bottom of every post quotes only the portion of a post that's highlighted at the time you press it. You can then highlight multiple sections (one at a time) and insert them all in the reply window. It's more organized than clicking "reply". But takes some getting use to.

Sorry, it has to be color. The quote thingies take too long.
Will keep trying also the way that you said.
Thanks!


Not really. I believe in a physical and non-physical person. So from that sense, a dichotomist. There are also physicalists Christians, they believe in only the physical person (a little counter Scriptural if you ask me). But I understand we have a multitude of both physical and non physical parts (not just three). Hearts, minds, yes spirits, etc. (non-physical). Flesh, bones, bodies, teeth, ears, etc. (physical).

To me, the Bible is clear. The "soul" is the whole person (physical and non-physical). Call it what you will.
No, Chessman. Please study this.
You have to be a dichotomist or a trichotomist.
You're making up your own rules!

We definetly have a body and soul
The question is: Do you believe the spirit is part of the soul, or a separate part of us?

Yes, and I agreed to at least the three parts you mentioned but pointed out that there's more than three parts to a "person" (a soul), Biblically speaking. Why just three???
Je Ne Sais Pas...
That's what those dang theologians say.


If you have relevant verses that teach the souls (or spirits or bodies for that matter) of all the wicked post-judged humans are not destroyed completely (physically and non-physically), by all means share them. I'd love to fit in with the crowd more if I can justify it Biblically.

Sorry Brother. You won't be able to do this biblically.
However, I'm sure of this. You could believe either and still be saved. It's DOCTRINE. Doctrine or theology does not save us. JESUS does. I tend to believe go on forever. Energy doesn' die. Or, if you like the Black Eyed Peas, Energy Never Dies.

Or if you have verses that teach any soul (any person) who has been given eternal life perish in Hell, that would be interesting and on topic too.

But I hear and understand what your position is. I agree with much of it, yet disagree with some. But hay, we both love the Lord, so no worries.

No worries. Amen. This is not something I'd spend too much time on.

Ooops.
Click to expand...

 

[Randy]

Sure (though I'm not quite sure why you ask) and I'd love for you to address my previously posted questions to you at some point.

Two Resurrections
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.​

[see the first resurrection John vissioned in Rev 20:1-10 and the second in Rev 20:11:15. I'm talking about the 2nd one.]

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming [and later came at His death and resurrection of the saints in the tombs] , in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

[Jesus is describing the first resurrection in John 5:28 of "all the saints who are in the tombs" (dead righteous Jewish saints, like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, John the Baptist, etc.), not the final resurrection of those still alive then (like John himself) or people in later centuries.]
I'm not sure of your point with this passage, though.


What about it?

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”​

None of these people (their souls that is) were dead even though their bones (their dead bodies) were in the grave. But again, this isn't after what occurs at the final judgment of the wicked. But, to me, proves that the body can die, yet the soul (the person's non-physical part) lives on. If that's your point, I don't disagree.


Via what passage(s)?

Do you think Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were in their final state then (their bodies dead, yet their souls alive?

I can only guess at your point.

Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

It's not my position (nor anyone I know of) who thinks there will not be weeping and nashing of teeth in Hell. Destruction is fearful and painful. The real question is, however, do the post-judged wicked get led to destruction or not? I say they (the wicked) are destroyed in Hell. I'm sure they weep and nash their teeth as they are destroyed.

What's your point?
You first said their souls live forever in Hell.
Then changed (or clarified) that it is their 'spirits' that live forever in Hell.

If you are using this passage for support of either claim, I just don't see the evidence.

Do spirts have teeth? (And no, I'm not kidding with this question)

IF you just focus on the resurrection of the righteous it was well understood and taught that the Lord would gather His elect from the ends of the heavens on the last day. (The resurrection of us all) That there would be some sell alive on earth on that day and they would be caught up into the air and clothed with immortality. AS Flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom that God promised to those that love Him. And that it would be a bodily resurrection. There are christians noted in the 1st Resurrection so those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.

 

[chessman]

The reason I brought it up is because I DO NOT believe the body and soul will be destroyed.

So no fear of God is warranted???

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

I believe there is a hell and that the persons who go there will be there for eternity.

I believe there is a Hell and that the persons who go there will be destroyed. Here's why:

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

Not only is He able to destroy both body and soul, He will do just that in a demonstration of His power and ability to destroy both the body and souls of the wicked.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

2 Peter 2:12-13a But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
​

In John 5:28-29 Jesus says that the dead will be judged.

Yes. That's why I believe that the wicked humans will be judged. Furthermore, those found evil will be destroyed (body and soul in Hell suffering their penalty.

I did NOT come to my belief wholly through the bible.

Obviously.

I did, however post both John 5:28-29 and Mathew 22:13 as proof texts.

Neither of which say that the wicked (spirits or souls) live forever in Hell.

 

[chessman]

Besides I also gave scripture about mankind also being thrown into the lake of fire .

You referenced

They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

The "They" in this passage are Beast worshippers on Earth (not in Hell). They get tormented with burning sulfur "in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb (before Judgment). Is it your position that the holy angels and the Lamb are in Hell?

You referenced

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

The "They" in this passage are not humans. It is the Devil and his demons.

Neither passage indicates that God will not destroy the body and soul of the wicked humans sentenced to Hell.

 

[Randy]

You referenced

The "They" in this passage are Beast worshippers on Earth (not in Hell). They get tormented with burning sulfur "in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb (before Judgment). Is it your position that the holy angels and the Lamb are in Hell?

You referenced

The "They" in this passage are not humans. It is the Devil and his demons.

Neither passage indicates that God will not destroy the body and soul of the wicked humans sentenced to Hell.

REV 14:9-12 NIV
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


Again angels are spirits and their spirit is not destroyed in the lake of fire so why then do you think spirit is destroyed in the lake of fire?Tormented and no rest night and day suggest awareness not annililation. Clearly REV 14:9-12 is speaking of anyone (mankind) as it states it calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints.

 

[GodsGrace]

So no fear of God is warranted???

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I would hope that persons do not come to God out of fear.
Although I know that some do. Whatever reason for coming to God, I'm willing to accept.

Fear is Always warranted. We are to fear God, but this means more a healthy respect than actual fear. If we feel we're God's friend, we have no reason to fear.

As for those who are not,,,yes. I guess eternal torment is worse than annihilation. Although both are not desireable when we have the capability to live with God forever.​

I believe there is a Hell and that the persons who go there will be destroyed. Here's why:

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

Not only is He able to destroy both body and soul, He will do just that in a demonstration of His power and ability to destroy both the body and souls of the wicked.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

2 Peter 2:12-13a But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
​

Yes. That's why I believe that the wicked humans will be judged. Furthermore, those found evil will be destroyed (body and soul in Hell suffering their penalty.
Hebrews 10:39 is very interesting because it speaks of both destruction, and the preserving of the soul.

As if to say that if one is saved, his soul will be preserved.
If one is not saved, his soul will be annihilated.
It supports your belief.

Obviously.

This response if from my statement that I did not come to this conclusion wholly from the bible.
My conclusion being that hell lasts forever and those there go on forever.
No annihilation.

Ive spoken about this with a friend of mine who knows Koinè Greek and is a theologian. Which means nothing. I don't agree with him on everything anyway.
We each have our own mind and soul and spirit to satisfy and God will judge us on what each one of us knows - not what Others tell us to believe.

Neither of which say that the wicked (spirits or souls) live forever in Hell
OK. I accept that you don't accept the verses at help me.

How would you explain
Luke 16:19-31 ?

There's a chasm separating the believers from the non-believers.
Why have the non-believers not been destroyed, annihilated?

What was God waiting for to annihilate them?

.

 

[chessman]

Again angels are spirits and their spirit is not destroyed in the lake of fire so why then do you think spirit is destroyed in the lake of fire?

Because humans aren't angels and because Jesus said God has the power to destroy the body and soul (the whole person) of the wicked in Hell and will do just that.

Neither of the verses you posted say otherwise. Why do you think human souls will not be destroyed in Hell?

 

[Angel Water]

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy"

It is NOT simply bodily death.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to apóllymi both soul and body in hell. ​

apóllymi is the permanent, absolute destruction of BOTH the body and the soul.

apóllymi will occur in Hell

apóllymi cannot be done by man but rather only by The One (The Lord).

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to apóllymi, but all to come to repentance.​

To "apóllymi " is the opposite of coming to (aorist) repentance.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apóllymi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy"

It is NOT simply bodily death.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to apóllymi both soul and body in hell. ​

apóllymi is the permanent, absolute destruction of BOTH the body and the soul.

apóllymi will occur in Hell

apóllymi cannot be done by man but rather only by The One (The Lord).

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to apóllymi, but all to come to repentance.​

To "apóllymi " is the opposite of coming to (aorist) repentance.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apóllymi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!

Isn't it God that would be the one referred to there?
And if absolute destruction of both body and soul, apóllymi , would to occur, that puts an end to the idea of burning in Hell for eternity, does it not?

 

[JLB]

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy"

It is NOT simply bodily death.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to apóllymi both soul and body in hell. ​

apóllymi is the permanent, absolute destruction of BOTH the body and the soul.

apóllymi will occur in Hell

apóllymi cannot be done by man but rather only by The One (The Lord).

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to apóllymi, but all to come to repentance.​

To "apóllymi " is the opposite of coming to (aorist) repentance.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apóllymi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!

John 10:28 is a "part" of a complete statement.

The word "And" is the dead giveaway, in verse 28.

You quoted the result of meeting the condition which is found in verse 27.

• Eternal life is the end result of living a life of faithful obedience to the Lord who dwells within us.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Then when we back up a little further we see that believe is the condition, that actually manifest's as a result of hearing, then the following or being led, is the result of believing.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Which brings us to condition # 3

• Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;

In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.

Mary said it this way -

• Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Condition # 4 - Follow

Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.

Following is the evidence you believe.


This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69


Key verse's:

• But there are some of you who do not believe.
• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
  
• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
  
• You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Following is the evidence of believing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.


The next point to be discussed is can a sheep become lost?



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction

It also means, "to be lost."
There are many meanings to individual words. There is not a mathematical identity between any given Koine Greek word (other than numbers) and a precisely corresponding modern English word.
Mat 10:6 “But go rather to the lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) sheep of the house of Israel.”
Mat 18:11 “For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost." (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
Luk 15:9 “And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!' (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
Jhn 6:12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.” (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
You have based your entire argument on a misunderstanding of Koine Greek thus rendering your argument a house of cards. It fails to stand even a slight breeze of scrutiny.

Also, I get the impression that you are promoting the doctrine of the annihilation of the wicked dead which is one of the heretical teachings of the 7th Day Adventist Church and their spin-off heretical sect, the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Was that your intention?

iakov the meshuganeh

 

[chessman]

Mat 10:6 “But go rather to the lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) sheep of the house of Israel.”
Mat 18:11 “For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost." (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
Luk 15:9 “And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!' (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
Jhn 6:12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.” (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)

Thus the need for a Savior (a gatherer of lost sheep) so that their post-judgment punishment for their being in a sinful lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) state now (in it's participle form) does not result in the completion of the path they are on (i.e. to it's noun form (destruction) when there's no one to gather them.

Is it your position that sinful hedonistic atheists get to live eternally in Hell in the same condition (lost) that they live in now?

You have based your entire argument on a misunderstanding of Koine Greek

Umm, I posted the meaning based on published work of Koine Greek scholars. You've misunderstood the difference between the verb and participle forms and it's noun form.

Was that your intention?

To study the meaning of destruction of the wicked in Hell.

You make a good point about the scope of the word's meaning. And the use of the Scriptures that translated the word as "lost" on this Earth is significant and per the rules of debate. I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned them until now.

But my question to you above is serious. And I have one more; why do no translations pick "lost" for the English translation of the final fate of the wicked in Hell? (Such as in Matt 10:28) If they are 'lost' now and 'lost' in Hell, wouldn't they be living the same lifestyle there as here? And doing so while enjoying their eternal lifestyle?

 

[chessman]

The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Okay. I'd say being created by momma/poppa sheep comes first (versus momma/poppa goat), but I do not disagree with your point about including v26 in the facts for His sheep.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

His sheep:
1. hear His voice (not someone elses)
and
2. He knows them (after all He's speaking to them)
and
3. they follow Him (I'm not teaching a doctrine that says His sheep do not follow Him). Aren't you teaching that some of His sheep stop following Him? Why, if someone truly believed this verse's perfect truth, would anyone think His sheep (that have believed and heard and He knows them) not follow Him is beyond understanding.
And
4. He gives (perfect, active, singular) His sheep Eternal life (not temporary life). And He does so perfectly and all by Himself.
and
5. they shall never perish;
and
6. neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
(I'm of the doctrine that anyone means anyone including themselves and Satan).
Aren't you?

 

[GodsGrace]

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