What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

[ezra]

Lets back up one verse and include it.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

One is NOT saved until baptized by water.

You are correct, in response to a segment of n2thelight, we have drifted off topic...

first off water baptism does not save us. baptism would be a type work following salvation..... the blood of christ is the cleansing (atonement) for our sins. back to the subject yes he has Predestination us to salvation. the who so ever will or shall. not willing any perish. but ALL come to repentance. scripture will back up what i say.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

The bible teaches predestination but not Calvinistic predestination for CP puts blame and fault upon God and therefore should be rejected. If I was not randomly, unconditionally chosen before the world began whose fault is that? It certainly is not my fault.

The bible teaches God predestinated a a group (Christians) and did not unconditionally predestinate just certain lucky individuals. Any that obeys the gospel becomes a Christian and part of that foreknown group, Eph 1:4,5.

,,,,

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by rrowell
Lets back up one verse and include it.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

One is NOT saved until baptized by water.

You are correct, in response to a segment of n2thelight, we have drifted off topic...

first off water baptism does not save us. baptism would be a type work following salvation..... the blood of christ is the cleansing (atonement) for our sins. back to the subject yes he has Predestination us to salvation. the who so ever will or shall. not willing any perish. but ALL come to repentance. scripture will back up what i say.

Do you see the part of the verse I underlined? it pacifically "baptism doth also now save us"??? I didn't make that up...

 

[Deborah13]

Rom 9:10



And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11



(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12



It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:30



What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31



But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32



Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;




Like I said the point was to show the two covenants, that the "older" law (esau) would be a servant to the "new"
grace (Jacob).
That its Gods Will to save man, and He does it according to "promise" by faith not by works. Now the fairy tale you posted yesterday has nothing to do with these scriptures.

Good explanation. Here is another teaching beginning at Romans 9:8. I won't quote the scripture.

"Paul cited six Old Testament references to make his point that God's promises to Abraham and his "seed" were made to the spiritual offspring of Abraham, not the physical.
First, Isaac was not the firstborn son of Abraham, entitled to the birthright and blessing, yet he obtained both because he was chosen by God. Next, Jacob was not the firstborn either, yet he was chosen by God. These two examples confirm that God's promise was not inherited by birth.

Paul also pointed out that before Jacob and his twin brother, Esau, were born, God told Rebekah that the elder would serve the younger. They weren't even born yet, so they had not done any good or evil that caused God to make this choice. This means that the blessing of Abraham was not obtained by individual performance either but was based solely on God's choosing by grace." Per Andrew Wommack Bible Commentary

 

[Mitspa]

Good explanation. Here is another teaching beginning at Romans 9:8. I won't quote the scripture.

"Paul cited six Old Testament references to make his point that God's promises to Abraham and his "seed" were made to the spiritual offspring of Abraham, not the physical.
First, Isaac was not the firstborn son of Abraham, entitled to the birthright and blessing, yet he obtained both because he was chosen by God. Next, Jacob was not the firstborn either, yet he was chosen by God. These two examples confirm that God's promise was not inherited by birth.

Paul also pointed out that before Jacob and his twin brother, Esau, were born, God told Rebekah that the elder would serve the younger. They weren't even born yet, so they had not done any good or evil that caused God to make this choice. This means that the blessing of Abraham was not obtained by individual performance either but was based solely on God's choosing by grace." Per Andrew Wommack Bible Commentary

Good stuff! Gods in charge even if man cant see it

 

[Randy]

God knew His plan of salvation. God knew there would be those that accepted His Love. (foreknew) God predestined those that accepted His plan of salvation to be conformed to the likeness/image of Jesus (the Son). A Jesus who taught us to be like our Heavenly Father. A Jesus who said, "if you have seen me you have seen the Father".

I am freewill. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Those that listen to the Father (the Spirit speaks what the Mind of the Spirit Wills) and learn from the Father go to the Son. As is written in the prophets "they shall all be taught by God" And Jesus will raise them up on the last day. Why? Because that is the Fathers Will.




Elect angels. Do you also believe God chose the angels that would remain faithful to Him? I don't. Living beings make choices. So as the gospel message proclaims "choose life" (Jesus)

 

[Mitspa]

God knew His plan of salvation. God knew there would be those that accepted His Love. (foreknew) God predestined those that accepted His plan of salvation to be conformed to the likeness/image of Jesus (the Son). A Jesus who taught us to be like our Heavenly Father. A Jesus who said, "if you have seen me you have seen the Father".
Elect angels. Do you also believe God chose the angels that would remain faithful to Him? I don't. Living beings make choices. So as the gospel message proclaims "choose life" (Jesus)

Good post! and I also wonder what the "elect" Angels means? I do not consider myself a "free-will" man, I consider myself a "surrendered will" man, but I do understand what the discussion always leads back to this issue. To be honest I dont know what part of "my will" gives way to Gods Will? I am just thankful that I have that "desire" working in me!

 

[ivdavid]

I'd like to share how I have understood predestination in the Bible. I've visualized it into the picture that I've attached here. Each little square node presents a choice and each line presents the actual option chosen to walk in. The thicker green lines represent God's choices and moves while the thinner red lines represent Man's. The larger boxes at the end are the final outcomes/destinations that would be reached by traversing through the tree to its end. (Obviously, this is not an all-comprehensive model of how God actually works - all earthly models have spiritual limitations and are bound to break at some point.)


This entire picture captures All the possible choices and moves by both God and man - and this data is available to God, which I take to be His omniscience.


Now, just as in chess, where a grandmaster or better still, a supercomputer can analyze and compile such data of all possible choices and moves Before the game even begins, I believe God simply began to think and He had omniscient knowledge of this entire picture even Before the foundations of the world were made.

Also, just as in the physical sciences, where a scientist could simply observe the input data to accurately predict the output, given his thorough knowledge on the nature of the physical phenomenon applied in various circumstances - I believe God can simply observe what is in man's heart(the input data) to accurately know what he would choose(the output), given God's infallible knowledge of the nature of man applied in various circumstances. This too, I take to be God's foreknowledge (apart from so much more that He foreknows).

This above point is quite interesting in its applications. People usually are inclined to believe that God created man with freewill to see what man would choose when given options - but doesn't this limit God's omniscience by restricting His knowledge only up to the time of man's active choosing[open theism]? To this, the answer would most likely be that God is outside of time and hence He can foreknow man's choices before they actually occur and yet He requires them to occur for Him to foreknow. Whereas my above point does not necessitate the actual occurrence of man's choosing for God to foreknow what man would have chosen.

I'll dwell on this point just a bit longer to clearly focus on the implications.
Case 1: God requires man's active choosing to occur to foreknow such.
Implication 1: God cannot act in any manner that denies such an occurrence from happening in order to uphold His omniscient foreknowledge and such a purpose for freewill.
Case 2: God does not require man's active choosing to occur to foreknow such.
Implication 2: God gave man 'freewill' - but Not for the purpose of knowing/foreknowing what man's choices would be.


Moving ahead, when I put my above understanding of God's omniscience and foreknowledge together, I get God's omnipresence too. Since He has complete omniscience of all possible choices/moves/outcomes And has foreknowledge of what man would choose in any circumstance, He can be omnipresent in space(ie circumstances represented by the nodes and lines in the picture) as well as omnipresent in time(ie being apart from the physical measure of time - though not apart from the sequential order of events) to observe any event in the world, even before the foundations of the world. (I'll clarify and elaborate on this if and when required.)


So, looking at the picture, God has omniscience of all possible routes ie He knows that He can reach the destination 16 as 1-2-4-9-16 or 1-2-5-10-16. I believe He has the foreknowledge of man's moves in all circumstances too - ie God can foreknow that man would always choose 7-14 and never 7-13 given His knowledge of what lies in man's heart and the nature of such a man. But under Case 1 understanding, God would be said to foreknow 7-14 only because it would anyway occur and that 7-13 could never be made to occur if infallible foreknowledge and the commonly held purpose of freewill are to be upheld.

Finally coming to the subject of the thread, any active choice/move of either God or man, that has been decided upon by God(through action or through permission) before the entire scenario actually plays out, is what I hold to be predestination. But even so, predestination itself may mean one of at least two things -

We have these sets of God's choices/moves and man's choices/moves tending towards a destination, where -
Case a) Some might believe that God has only predestined the respective final outcomes and His own choices/moves dependent upon what man might choose.
Case b) In addition to the above Case a), I believe God can(where He wills) predestine not only the destination but also the exact route to be taken, not only concerning His own choices/moves but also factoring in man's own choices/moves.

So under Case a), one will have to say that God has predestined 8 leads to 15, 14 leads to 19 etc. and that He has predestined He would choose 4-8 if man chooses 2-4 and that He would choose 6-11 if man chooses 3-6 etc. but nothing more.

Whereas under Case b), I would say that God can(where He wills) predestine a destination that He has directly and causatively selected - and that He is able and sufficient to bring about that destination in exactly the route He has decreed. As already seen, under Case 2 understanding, God has foreknowledge of what man will choose even without such an event occurring, since it is based on the knowledge of what lies in man's heart and his own nature. Given this foreknowledge, God will know the exact route man would end in for each possible combination.

Say God foreknew that Man would always choose 3-6 and 11-17 given what lies in his heart and his own nature, but God wills such a man to reach 18 as 1-3-6-11-18 (destination and route being predestined by God), then God will have to influence man to choose 11-18 instead of 11-17 which is man's natural choice. Herein, we bring in the doctrine of regeneration - where man's heart is made new and his nature is changed - so that he is able to choose what God has willed, thereby fulfilling his predestined destiny. Note, in all cases where God has not intervened, the understanding of Case a) is followed by Case b) too.

Anything required to be clarified, I'd do so but I cannot guarantee promptness.

 

[smaller]

This entire picture captures All the possible choices and moves by both God and man - and this data is available to God, which I take to be His omniscience.

Now, just as in chess, where a grandmaster or better still, a supercomputer can analyze and compile such data of all possible choices and moves Before the game even begins, I believe God simply began to think and He had omniscient knowledge of this entire picture even Before the foundations of the world were made.

Also, just as in the physical sciences, where a scientist could simply observe the input data to accurately predict the output, given his thorough knowledge on the nature of the physical phenomenon applied in various circumstances - I believe God can simply observe what is in man's heart(the input data) to accurately know what he would choose(the output), given God's infallible knowledge of the nature of man applied in various circumstances. This too, I take to be God's foreknowledge (apart from so much more that He foreknows).

This above point is quite interesting in its applications. People usually are inclined to believe that God created man with freewill to see what man would choose when given options - but doesn't this limit God's omniscience by restricting His knowledge only up to the time of man's active choosing[open theism]? To this, the answer would most likely be that God is outside of time and hence He can foreknow man's choices before they actually occur and yet He requires them to occur for Him to foreknow. Whereas my above point does not necessitate the actual occurrence of man's choosing for God to foreknow what man would have chosen.

I'll dwell on this point just a bit longer to clearly focus on the implications.
Case 1: God requires man's active choosing to occur to foreknow such.
Implication 1: God cannot act in any manner that denies such an occurrence from happening in order to uphold His omniscient foreknowledge and such a purpose for freewill.
Case 2: God does not require man's active choosing to occur to foreknow such.
Implication 2: God gave man 'freewill' - but Not for the purpose of knowing/foreknowing what man's choices would be.

Moving ahead, when I put my above understanding of God's omniscience and foreknowledge together, I get God's omnipresence too. Since He has complete omniscience of all possible choices/moves/outcomes And has foreknowledge of what man would choose in any circumstance, He can be omnipresent in space(ie circumstances represented by the nodes and lines in the picture) as well as omnipresent in time(ie being apart from the physical measure of time - though not apart from the sequential order of events) to observe any event in the world, even before the foundations of the world. (I'll clarify and elaborate on this if and when required.)

So, looking at the picture, God has omniscience of all possible routes ie He knows that He can reach the destination 16 as 1-2-4-9-16 or 1-2-5-10-16. I believe He has the foreknowledge of man's moves in all circumstances too - ie God can foreknow that man would always choose 7-14 and never 7-13 given His knowledge of what lies in man's heart and the nature of such a man. But under Case 1 understanding, God would be said to foreknow 7-14 only because it would anyway occur and that 7-13 could never be made to occur if infallible foreknowledge and the commonly held purpose of freewill are to be upheld.

We have these sets of God's choices/moves and man's choices/moves tending towards a destination, where -
Case a) Some might believe that God has only predestined the respective final outcomes and His own choices/moves dependent upon what man might choose.
Case b) In addition to the above Case a), I believe God can(where He wills) predestine not only the destination but also the exact route to be taken, not only concerning His own choices/moves but also factoring in man's own choices/moves.

So under Case a), one will have to say that God has predestined 8 leads to 15, 14 leads to 19 etc. and that He has predestined He would choose 4-8 if man chooses 2-4 and that He would choose 6-11 if man chooses 3-6 etc. but nothing more.

Whereas under Case b), I would say that God can(where He wills) predestine a destination that He has directly and causatively selected - and that He is able and sufficient to bring about that destination in exactly the route He has decreed. As already seen, under Case 2 understanding, God has foreknowledge of what man will choose even without such an event occurring, since it is based on the knowledge of what lies in man's heart and his own nature. Given this foreknowledge, God will know the exact route man would end in for each possible combination.

Anything required to be clarified, I'd do so but I cannot guarantee promptness.

Your structure appears largely similar to various open theism constructs.

There are difficulties multiple in all of same, one of which is that God is in fact supposedly powerful enough to have any outcome He Desires at any time.

The presumption that some determinists deploy is that if the desired outcome is unto Perfection, only the Grand Master can make that come about.

There is a presumption in freewill land that imperfect choices are somehow pleasing to God that will result in a perfect outcome by their imperfect moves and that they will be rewarded for their less than perfect moves on the board.

No matter what choices are made there will always and only be One Winner regardless and only One Player that can achieve a Perfect Outcome regardless.

s

 

[ivdavid]

Your structure appears largely similar to various open theism constructs.

There are difficulties multiple in all of same, one of which is that God is in fact supposedly powerful enough to have any outcome He Desires at any time.

Actually, I myself don't subscribe to open theism - I'd call myself very much a determinist - and I do hold that God is powerful enough to have any outcome He desires at any time and that He does fulfill all that He has purposed in Himself to do irrespective of any other factor.

The presumption that some determinists deploy is that if the desired outcome is unto Perfection, only the Grand Master can make that come about.

There is a presumption in freewill land that imperfect choices are somehow pleasing to God that will result in a perfect outcome by their imperfect moves and that they will be rewarded for their less than perfect moves on the board.

I don't quite hold that imperfect choices of man could be pleasing to God - and yes, I do hold that only God is sufficient to preserve man unto his predestined outcome. Determinism, according to me, doesn't preclude man's choices - it's just that inspite of their fallibility(which is factored in), God's wisdom is able to preserve the believer in His decreed ways.

No matter what choices are made there will always and only be One Winner regardless and only One Player that can achieve a Perfect Outcome regardless.

If I've understood this correctly, I'll have to agree with it.

 

[smaller]

Actually, I myself don't subscribe to open theism - I'd call myself very much a determinist - and I do hold that God is powerful enough to have any outcome He desires at any time and that He does fulfill all that He has purposed in Himself to do irrespective of any other factor.

I generally agree.

Open theism projects that their moves either could not be foreseen by God or if foreseen, can not be altered by God.

It is shown in the text in 1 Cor. 15 that in the finality God will be all in all and there will be no other powers or enemies, they all being put down/away.

I don't quite hold that imperfect choices of man could be pleasing to God - and yes, I do hold that only God is sufficient to preserve man unto his predestined outcome. Determinism, according to me, doesn't preclude man's choices - it's just that inspite of their fallibility(which is factored in), God's wisdom is able to preserve the believer in His decreed ways.

Indeed. Our current state is probably more of a matter of protection, not being able to engage the fullness of God Himself.

If I've understood this correctly, I'll have to agree with it.

Yeah, I thought prior we saw similarly. I was just askin.

My own presumption in 'all things' is that logically speaking on Perfection can achieve whatever His Desires are from His Creation.

In the meantime we are engaged with participation in same.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Perfection/God Himself, will not and can not be thwarted by any given thing He Himself created.

If any given thing/choice/power, whatever exits, it does so for the sole purpose of Gods Pleasure. It is only problematic to us because we just don't currently grasp the entirety of His Superiority over all things.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

We may certainly think our imperfect participation will somehow move the needle one way or another. I just don't see it that as a credible possibility.

It is also problematic for us in our current state of affairs to even conceive of what Perfection is or consists of. It is also difficult to see that value in Gods Eyes is not resting on Power, but on weakness.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I might liken us currently to a somewhat higher state of a flower or a sparrow whom God presently takes pleasure in observing in His Garden. The Gardener Himself created the Garden for His Sole Pleasure and will get out of same exactly what He wants.

s

 

[n2thelight]

Re: It is written...

When God selected Jacob over Esau, it was not the "man" he selected but the "people" or "nation" that would be delivered, God foreknew that Esau and his people would be sinful (not just Esau), he knew "from Jacob" would come a nation (as did, it was Israel) from which the seed of the Messiah would come... it was not the "man" that was "elected" but the "people"...

Genesis 25:23 (KJV)
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.





This is the point of Paul.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Before Jeremiah was even concieved within his mothers womb, God is telling Jeremiah that He knew him, and before Jeremiah was born, God sanctified him, which is to set Jeremiah apart for God's mission. God ordained Jeremiah as a prophet, not only to Judah, by to the nations also. When we see the word "Nations" it is directed to the Gentile nations also. Jeremiah was a prophet to all nations.

In this final generation, this is amplified into the fact of the kings and queens that serve their people in the service of the living God. Think on that phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee." To understand this phrase, you have to understand the three earth ages, as it is taught in II Peter 3, that there was an earth age before this present one, that this earth is millions of years old. The manuscripts, even from this King James declare it, and Jeremiah will take us to that first earth age in the fourth chapter.

God foreknew Jeremiah, and knew that he was qualified to do the task that Jeremiah is about to be commissioned to do. Jeremiah had earned the right to fulfill that position, even in the first earth age.

It is to bad that Christianity has so few scholars that their followers can be taken into a clear understand of God's Word. The understanding of the first earth age requires that you dig into the languages of the Scripture. The Christians of today are limited to the short span of six thousand years, from Adam's time, and in their thinking they are completely ignorant of all time prior to then.

We can go out in the country side and witness the eons of years of time prior to then. The Scriptures tell us of that time. In Job 40:15-19 God told us of the behemoth, or as we call it, the dinosaur, [which comes from the Greek meaning "deinos" terrible "sauros" lizard].

Job 40:15-19 "Behold the behemoth, which I made with thee; and eateth grass as an ox.." [15] "Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly." [16] "He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together." [17] "His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron." [18] "He is the chief of the ways of God: He That made him can make His sword to approach unto him." [19]

The dinosaurs are common today even to preschool children, and their bones are scattered all over the world, even though they did not live in the age that we now live in, this current flesh age of man. We know that there were many types of these dinosaurs that walked the earth eons of years ago. You just can't hide the evidence of all the bone that are collected on all the land masses of the earth.

From this we can see how foolish these Christian teachers and pastors look to the rest of the world, when they try to tell them that this old world is only six thousand years old. They call the behemoth a hippopotamus, and hope that others will believe their assessment of this word relating to the hippopotamus, even though the tail of the hippo has no strength in it at all, and it is like a little twig. But as we read in Job 40:19; it states the behemoth "moveth his tail like a cedar;" This type of strength could only come from the dinosaur.

We did have that first earth age, as recorded in Genesis 1:1, 2; where the earth became void, and without form at Satan's rebellion. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." This word "was" in the Hebrew text should read "became", as is shown in Strong's Hebrew dictionary, "Without form" in the Hebrew text reads; "tohu va bohu", which means a complete waste. God created the earth perfect, as we read in Genesis 1:1, and then it became a complete waste.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else." God did not create the earth void, but He created it to be inhabited. He did not create it "tohu va bohu"

Satan rebelled, and one third of the souls followed him in that rebellion, and God brought a close to that first earth age, and brought about man himself in this earth age of the flesh. Each soul now comes from God, and enters the embryo in the womb, and is born innocent of that first earth age. This flesh body is formed in the womb from the elements of the earth that the mother consumes from food she eats and it is developed into its final form at birth. In the flesh body, man (woman) then has the free will to descide for itself whether it would love God or Satan.

Man's body is made up from the clay of the earth, and upon death that physical body will decay right back into those elements that it came from. In the mother's womb, there is a clay vessel, that is made from the elements that came from the clay of the soul. Even in the meat we eat, comes from the greens that the animal ate that formed it's body. The body is an earthen vessel, but it is God that places the soul, the inner being into the child, and that is how God knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was even placed in the womb of his mother.

God said that he could trust Jeremiah, and I know that Jeremiah will follow me even in the flesh, and because of this Jeremiah is the one that I will place in the flesh in the embryo of the wife of Hilkiah.

 

[n2thelight]

Totally false by logic and disregard for the scripture,

We have Jesus announcing TWO requirements of salvation:

1. "born of water"
2. "born of Spirit"

Each one explicitly denoting something that must be done to gain salvation.
Certainly our Lord would not be telling us we are half way there the moment our mothers water breaks, and if it were so he would not have even mentioned it.


The word "γεννηθη" "give birth to" is used first in John 3:3 Nicodemus states "a second time" denoting he understood it to be a second birth, and Jesus used "γεννηθη" in John 3:5 adding the word "ανωθεν" "again" meaning literally a second birth. (obviously Nicodemus "who was fluent in the language" rightfully asked the question "how")

Being it was a fact then as it is now that we cannot be "born again of our mother" Jesus says: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit".

So unless a man is "Baptized by Water and by doing so receive the Holy Spirit, he cannot be saved, this is affirmed here:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Let me try again ,to help you understand.........

Born Again From Above

Born Again from above is a Supernatural Rebirth from God. The Word God is only a Title. Like the Titles Father, Son, Holy Ghost (or Spirit), Children of God and Sons of God. The terminology is Family Orientated so we may visualize our relationship with God. Example: There is a Bride and a Groom. Christ is the Groom, we are the Bride.The Hebrew spelling of the major name of God in the Old Testament translated in most english Bibles as " LORD " or "JEHOVAH." The Bible will interprete itself if we will let it. By the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God. We can always find cross references for scripture. The Old Testament prophecies the New Covenant. The New Testament Scriptures will line up with the Old Testament Scriptures. God does not contradict Himself !The Word of God, Will Not Contradict itself. If there is confusion or a misunderstanding, it is of Our Own ! NOT GOD !


The Supernatural Birth / Flesh and In the Spirit / From God


" The Born Again Doctrine " The Born Again Doctrine is taken from the Book of John Chapter 3. Where Jesus says to Nicodemus.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This term, "Born Again" has been so misinterpreted. It is being used as a false doctrine to decieve the world. The Christian Religion uses it as a stamp of completion in the physical body now. They say, they are Born Again and are saved ! They claim, their ready to enter into the kingdom of God, right now in the Flesh ! Many, Christians claim to be saved and just merely Believe in the LORD as their savior. And then continue on living the way they feel is right.......

This is a DANGEROUS AREA, the [name it] and [claim it] Christianity ! It is the same nature that Lucifer acquired. It is the "Evil Nature". God [DID NOT CREATE LUCIFER EVIL] !Look for the "Nature Study" on the website sub-title list on the right side ? Look under ? "Where Did The Evil Nature Come From" It comes from Self~Will and False~Reasoning ! [The Human Nature / The Flesh or The Carnal Minded] In John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old ? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ? Jesus then went on to explain to Nicodemus in
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus is pointing out (2) Births. One is a Natural Birth from the water (the womb of a woman). And the other is a Supernatural Birth (from God above). Jesus said, in John 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Born Again may be translated either "again" or "from above." Perhaps both ideas should be combined here, to indicate the repetition of an act from another source. Different Religious Organized Groups claim to be "Born Again" in different ways !

For example:
The Pentecostal's have a Born Again formula for Salvation: (1.) Repentance
(2.) Being baptized in the name of Jesus Only.
(3.) Then you must speak in tongues as a sign of recieving the Holy Spirit.Then they say, you have been "Born Again" of God from Above !

The Baptist have a Born Again formula for Salvation:
(1.) Repentance
(2.) You must Believe the LORD died for your sin and He then, rose again from the grave on the 3rd day.
(3.) A PRAYER asking Jesus into your Life ! And then Poof they [pronounce you "Born Again"]. Later you will be told you need to be baptized into the membership of their church (Building).

And this "Born Again" doctrine they teach only out of the book of John Chapter 3. It becomes a One Verse Plan of Salvation. But, do you wont the Truth ? Then we must make sure it lines up with the scriptures [The Inspired Word of God]. Precept upon precept and line upon line, from the front of the Bible to the back ! How was Jesus "Born Again" ? With the exception He was the Spirit of God Manifested in the Flesh and walked the earth and died for the sin of the world. That we all may be saved, that Believe upon Him.

CHRISTIANS SAY, THEY CALL THEMSELVES THAT. BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO BE CHRIST-LIKE ! O.K, LETS BE BORN AGAIN CHRIST-LIKE THEN. HE SET THE EXAMPLE ! JESUS WAS BORN LIKE US WITH ANOTHER EXCEPTION ! HE WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN WOMAN [MARY]. THE VIRGIN BIRTH WAS A SIGN THAT IT WAS A SUPERNATURAL BIRTH ! SHE CONCIEVED NOT FROM ANY MAN ON THIS EARTH ! BUT FROM THE SPIRIT OF GOD FROM ABOVE ! WITH THAT SAID;

(1.) Jesus was born of a Natural Birth from the womb of a woman.[Like He told Nic.]
(2.) Jesus was crucified, He died in the Physical Flesh. (Place in the Tomb or Grave)
(3.) Jesus was Resurrected from the dead by God, [Born Again from God Above] Jesus went from Flesh to Spirit from God Above.

When Jesus appeared to the disciples after His Resurrection.
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Then in Luke 24:38~39 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Why are ye troubled (or scared) ? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts ? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.He has been Resurrected from the dead by God above. And also we have that hope and promise to be Resurrected from the dead. To live with Jesus for Eternity.

You would do well to read the rest.......

http://www.freewebs.com/pastorkwpledger/bornagainfromabove.htm

 

[n2thelight]

Just a lil more info for ya

Is it true that in John 3:3, Jesus told him that he must be “born again� No.
Then why does virtually every Bible translation say that?

That’s an excellent question, especially if it is posed as the result of realizing that the Church of the Body of Christ (Christians) did not begin until the Day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2, so how could Nicodemus have been “born again,†that is, become a Christian, prior to that?

Furthermore, it is clear from the ensuing dialogue that Jesus was astounded that Nicodemus was clueless about what he was trying to communicate to him, and that is most significant. Why? Because the Old Testament was the only body of Scripture from which Nicodemus could learn, and thus the answer to his question must be found there—which it is.

But, there is nothing whatsoever in the Old Testament about “The Secret,†the “one new man,†the unique body of non-Jewish/non-Gentile believers who we refer to as “Christians.†So Jesus could not have been talking about being “born again of incorruptible seed†as per 1 Peter 1:23—because it simply was not available until the Day of Pentecost.

Well, what does the Greek text say? Another good question. Interestingly, the Greek word rendered “again†in John 3:3 is translated “from above†28 verses later! Now seriously, how often do people get those two things confused? “Hey, it was great having lunch with you. Let's do it from above—I mean again.â€
The Greek word is anothen, which means “from above,†and that is exactly how verse 3 should read. So what did Jesus mean when he said that Nicodemus must be “born from above� And why was he so amazed that Nicodemus, one of the 70 ruling elders of Judaism, had no idea what he was talking about?

Jesus exchange with Nicodemus had nothing whatsoever to do with being Baptized........