What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

[n2thelight]

The scriptures do NOT teach me (anywhere that I know of) that I EXISTED prior to being born through my parents..
AND even if that we're true.. it doesn't change the fact that ALL IN ADAM are under condemnation..

Do you believe and understand that our nature according to the FLESH is under condemnation and that DEATH has passed upon all men ?

As for Esau.. I think it's obvious.. because he SOLD his birthright to satisfy what..

His FLESH..

Because Jacob was a picture of "grace" Esua "who sold his birthright" a picture of"law".
Rom 9:22

So how did you both miss this verse below?

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

 

[Mitspa]

So how did you both miss this verse below?

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Rom 9:10



And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11



(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12



It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:30



What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31



But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32



Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;




Like I said the point was to show the two covenants, that the "older" law (esau) would be a servant to the "new"
grace (Jacob).
That its Gods Will to save man, and He does it according to "promise" by faith not by works. Now the fairy tale you posted yesterday has nothing to do with these scriptures.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Heb 4:2



For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Because you are unwilling to hear the truth! You are too busy trying to teach others, you can not be taught!:o


Heb 5:12



For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13



For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Heb 5:14





But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

You have not showed one verse that says the Gospel is for everyone, and that everyone but everyone will not receive it. Again you have failed to prove anything you state by scripture.

The Gospel as a message of salvation is only to them that are being saved, it is to them a message of good news, the good news of their salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

And these Paul stated earlier in the Gospel that they had been predestinated unto the Adoption of Sons Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Mitspa]

You have not showed one verse that says the Gospel is for everyone, and that everyone but everyone will not receive it. Again you have failed to prove anything you state by scripture.

The Gospel as a message of salvation is only to them that are being saved, it is to them a message of good news, the good news of their salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

And these Paul stated earlier in the Gospel that they had been predestinated unto the Adoption of Sons Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Not trying to prove that point! The tread is about "predestination" and I have laid out in a very simple way, that it means to be conformed to the Image of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now if you are willing to have a honest discussion about any point I have made? I will be glad to look into your view, and I may learn something when I do? You have shown no willing attitude to discuss these issues, but have only tried to find fault and muddy up the water, so to say.:o

Now what issue do you have with my doctrine?

 

[Eventide]

So how did you both miss this verse below?

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Wow, never saw that before... LOL

The dominant context of Romans 9-11 is the nation of Israel.. and that is what Paul is speaking of here..

Remember JACOB... Israel...?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Not trying to prove that point!

Then why are you answering or responding to what i added. You have not proved your false man made view , that God predestinated a way. That is false, God predestinated people, WHOM'S Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Mitspa]

Then why are you answering or responding to what i added. You have not proved your false man made view , that God predestinated a way. That is false, God predestinated people, WHOM'S Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Lets see Rom 8:29 says that we are "predestine" to be "CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE"
Then 2Cor3;

is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

That is so simple a child could understand? Oh yea one must become as a fool to be made wise:eeeekkk

 

[savedbygrace57]

Lets see Rom 8:29 says that we are "predestine" to be "CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE"

Not everyone, those who God foreknew they were predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. This verse does not say how, but that they were. Thats the point of the verse.

There are specific persons whom God foreknew. The word foreknew here also means foreordained. They were foreordained with Christ before the foundation 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

And these were Chosen in Him before the foundation of the World Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The fact they were predestinated before the foundation of the World is the issue in this verse, because they were Chosen in the foreordained One 1 Pet 1:20

Not all men are foreknown by God, that is sure from Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These could not have been those God foreknew Rom 8:29, else Christ lied since He is God also as Man !

Now either disprove what I have posted with scripture or not. And I am not speaking about how God conforms them, but that He predestinated them to be conformed, you either believe the truth or you don't !

 

[Mitspa]

Not everyone, those who God foreknew they were predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. This verse does not say how, but that they were. Thats the point of the verse.

Rom 8:24

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25


But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

No it says we are to be "conformed to His Image" something to be attained to by the "Spirit" see 2Cor3 for the "destination"

 

[n2thelight]

Like I said the point was to show the two covenants, that the "older" law (esau) would be a servant to the "new"
grace (Jacob).
That its Gods Will to save man, and He does it according to "promise" by faith not by works. Now the fairy tale you posted yesterday has nothing to do with these scriptures

.

Has everything to do with it....my question was why did God hate Essau,to which you replied,because he sold his heritage.....The point is from that scripture,is to show that He hated Essau even before he was born......

But since you seem to be having problems with that verse,lets do the below

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

So how did He know him before he was born,let me answer it for ya,he was with Him...............Call it what you want,but I'll call it what it is,all souls were created at the same time...............

 

[Mitspa]

.

Has everything to do with it....my question was why did God hate Essau,to which you replied,because he sold his heritage.....The point is from that scripture,is to show that He hated Essau even before he was born.....

Or did God ordain two covenants "before he was born" and chose to use those two brothers as an example to the world? The point of the scripture is not that God hates people before they are born, but that God had a plan of salvation that has been playing out from the foundations of the world! That God works by promise,not by what man deserves, which He made to the mother before they were both born


Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

[n2thelight]

Or did God ordain two covenants "before he was born" and chose to use those two brothers as an example to the world? The point of the scripture is not that God hates people before they are born, but that God had a plan of salvation that has been playing out from the foundations of the world! That God works by promise,not by what man deserves, which He made to the mother before they were both born


Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Still didn't answer the question,why did God hate Essau....May not be the point of all the verses,but still He hated him before he was born!!!!Why???

I also gave an example from Job,concerning the sons of God,showing where we were when God created this earth,can I get your response to that??

 

[Mitspa]

Still didn't answer the question,why did God hate Essau....May not be the point of all the verses,but still He hated him before he was born!!!!Why???

I also gave an example from Job,concerning the sons of God,showing where we were when God created this earth,can I get your response to that??

Well it has everything to do with the verses, God in relation to man hates the works of man that come from self-righteousness by law. He has made the way by faith in His Promise, which pleases Him.
Now when Jesus said you must "hate" your parents ?

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

"Hate" is a "relative term" compared to what God desires from man.

You must also know? the term "sons of God" is used often in the Old Testament to refer to the Angels?

 

[Eventide]

It is written...

Still didn't answer the question,why did God hate Essau....May not be the point of all the verses,but still He hated him before he was born!!!!Why???

This is NOT correct... the verse does NOT say that God hated Esau before he was born.. it says that it is written...

AND where or when was it written..?

In the book of Malachi.. and that was written centuries AFTER Esau lived his life.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: It is written...

This is NOT correct... the verse does NOT say that God hated Esau before he was born.. it says that it is written...

AND where or when was it written..?

In the book of Malachi.. and that was written centuries AFTER Esau lived his life.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:13 (KJV)

Many think this was written before the children were born, but this is not correct. Yet it is true that God foretold that Esau, the older, should serve Jacob, the younger, before they were born. This was, no doubt, made because God, seeing the end from the beginning, saw that Jacob would trust and serve him and that Esau would not. To "love" and "hate" as God uses the terms means to approve or disapprove, to bless or curse.

 

[Mitspa]

Re: It is written...

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:13 (KJV)

Many think this was written before the children were born, but this is not correct. Yet it is true that God foretold that Esau, the older, should serve Jacob, the younger, before they were born. This was, no doubt, made because God, seeing the end from the beginning, saw that Jacob would trust and serve him and that Esau would not. To "love" and "hate" as God uses the terms means to approve or disapprove, to bless or curse.

How do you think your post fulfills the scripture?

Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

have you read much about Jacob? How did he serve God more so than Esau?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: It is written...

How do you think your post fulfills the scripture?

Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

have you read much about Jacob? How did he serve God more so than Esau?

That is not the topic here...this is about predestination. And yes, I have studied much about Jacob and Esau. Esau is mentioned 88 times throughout the bible and Jacob 358 times. Start another thread and we can discuss how Jacob served more than Esau. You are a minister so you should know....if you study.

 

[rrowell]

Re: It is written...

How do you think your post fulfills the scripture?

Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

have you read much about Jacob? How did he serve God more so than Esau?

When God selected Jacob over Esau, it was not the "man" he selected but the "people" or "nation" that would be delivered, God foreknew that Esau and his people would be sinful (not just Esau), he knew "from Jacob" would come a nation (as did, it was Israel) from which the seed of the Messiah would come... it was not the "man" that was "elected" but the "people"...

Genesis 25:23 (KJV)
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.





This is the point of Paul.

 

[Mitspa]

Re: It is written...

That is not the topic here...this is about predestination. And yes, I have studied much about Jacob and Esau. Esau is mentioned 88 times throughout the bible and Jacob 358 times. Start another thread and we can discuss how Jacob served more than Esau. You are a minister so you should know....if you study.

Yes "predestination" the whole point being God chose Jacob based upon His plan, not according to which one deserved it, but by Gods will!



Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

So when you posted on the subject? what point was you trying to make?

I think it relates very well with the "topic" of this thread!
But because you dont understand, you want to ignore it? Thats the way religion is!


"If any man thinks he knows anything? let him admit he knows nothing yet as he should know"

 

[BornAgain]

Re: It is written...

Yes "predestination" the whole point being God chose Jacob based upon His plan, not according to which one deserved it, but by Gods will!



Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

So when you posted on the subject? what point was you trying to make?

I think it relates very well with the "topic" of this thread!
But because you dont understand, you want to ignore it? Thats the way religion is!


"If any man thinks he knows anything? let him admit he knows nothing yet as he should know"

You asked me a direct question..

have you read much about Jacob? How did he serve God more so than Esau?

That has nothing to do with predestination and I am trying to stay on topic. You asked if I read much about Jacob and how he served God. Let's stay on topic here and not ask for my opinions.