What does the bible say about False teachers?

[glorydaz]

We have a Comforter that could not come until Jesus ascended to the Father.
The key words are indwelling and forever.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Did the OT saints have the indwelling Spirit? It appears they did through faith.

But, Saul did not have a circumcised heart, was not a man of faith, and, therefore, did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit as David did...who was a man of faith. The Spirit came upon Saul for an annointing as King, but where is his faith that he was indwelt by the Spirit?

So using Saul as an example doesn't work.

To claim the security of the believer is a false doctrine is simply a false accusation. :biglaugh

 

[Elijah674]

Elija674 (and others) - Do we live this side of the Cross or before the Cross?

I'm curious why all this dialogue about things that were to come and have now (since) come to pass and have now been surpassed by His Grace.

I am also curious why so often we hear an ancient and archaic language spoken when it comes to 'Holy talk'.
Its not a language that many understand these days and yet many persist in it.
Then when we talk about the washing machine or the weather its back to English or our 2010 modern lingo.

The question is about false teachers.
Just what is a 'false teacher'?
A defenition on that would be interesting.

Rev. 17:1-5 (King James) tells of a Mother Whore &

her DAUGHTERS. That Covers all of the false Abomination of the Earth church's. The Leadership are the main false teacher. They have been teaching false [DOCTRINE] for well past any 120 years thar you read about in Gen. 6:3's STRIVING OF THE HOLY GHOST at the time of the world flood. (NO CHANGE, just the same false doctrine! (such as an ETERNAL BURNING HELL)

OK: God/Christ has His very own sincere ones still in this mess! Rev. 18:4 is [REQUIRING] them to leave or else! And leaving the yoked 'membership' even of these church's where CHRIST IS NOT, (Matt. 23:38-Rev. 3:9) is like pulling teeth! You were brought up in them, your family is in them, [BUT CHRIST IS NOT!] (Josh. 7:12's last part of the verse='s FALSE Doctrine + teachers...READ THE FORUMS!)

If that helps?? then go to the K.J. on Eze. 9 for what the TRUE ONES OF GOD/CHRIST are doing at PRESENT and what is being seen in the last day. There are just two class seen here, and the issue is not about O.S.A.S. huh?

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

We have a Comforter that could not come until Jesus ascended to the Father.
The key words are indwelling and forever.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Did the OT saints have the indwelling Spirit? It appears they did through faith.

But, Saul did not have a circumcised heart, was not a man of faith, and, therefore, did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit as David did...who was a man of faith. The Spirit came upon Saul for an annointing as King, but where is his faith that he was indwelt by the Spirit?

So using Saul as an example doesn't work.

To claim the security of the believer is a false doctrine is simply a false accusation. :biglaugh

But, Saul did not have a circumcised heart, was not a man of faith, and, therefore, did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit as David did...who was a man of faith. The Spirit came upon Saul for an annointing as King, but where is his faith that he was indwelt by the Spirit?

So using Saul as an example doesn't work.

To claim the security of the believer is a false doctrine is simply a false accusation. :biglaugh[/quote]


Big laugh, We are trying to be truthful. God says in verse 6 + verse 9 which I will high/lite that you are not stating the truth.

1 Sam. 10
[1] Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?
[2] When thou art departed from me to day, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son?
[3] Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Bethel, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine:
[4] And they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands.
[5] After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

And FORUM: This is the INSPIRED WORD of the Holy Spirit! (not Jer. 17:5 ones)
--Elijah

 

[glorydaz]

But, Saul did not have a circumcised heart, was not a man of faith, and, therefore, did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit as David did...who was a man of faith. The Spirit came upon Saul for an annointing as King, but where is his faith that he was indwelt by the Spirit?

So using Saul as an example doesn't work.

To claim the security of the believer is a false doctrine is simply a false accusation. :biglaugh

Big laugh, We are trying to be truthful. God says in verse 6 + verse 9 which I will high/lite that you are not stating the truth.

1 Sam. 10

[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

And FORUM: This is the INSPIRED WORD of the Holy Spirit! (not Jer. 17:5 ones)
--Elijah

Ah, well let's add some more of that inspired word then, shall we?
First, you can't deny the the Holy Spirit was not given in the OT as it is since Pentecost, but I'll play along and see where this leads.

Some will claim Saul was saved, and I'm happy to believe he was. If his heart was truly circumcised according to these verses, then we need to look at what else happened with Saul.

Repentance and worshipping God....good.

Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD.

We know the Holy Spirit didn't abide "forever" with the believers as He does since He was given as a Comforter at Pentecost.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

So the Spirit had departed Saul.

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Here Samuel says, "Tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me."
We know where Samuel was...and Jonathan...Samuel says Saul will be there, too.

15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

And here we have the icing on the cake for that dreaded OSAS doctrine.
I'm really glad you brought this up.

Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions.

The promises of God never fail.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

There are some who claim Samson won't be among the elect, either.
I guess faith is everything to God....whatever men might think.

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

 

[glorydaz]

Rev. 17:1-5 (King James) tells of a Mother Whore &

her DAUGHTERS. That Covers all of the false Abomination of the Earth church's. The Leadership are the main false teacher. They have been teaching false [DOCTRINE] for well past any 120 years thar you read about in Gen. 6:3's STRIVING OF THE HOLY GHOST at the time of the world flood. (NO CHANGE, just the same false doctrine! (such as an ETERNAL BURNING HELL)

OK: God/Christ has His very own sincere ones still in this mess! Rev. 18:4 is [REQUIRING] them to leave or else! And leaving the yoked 'membership' even of these church's where CHRIST IS NOT, (Matt. 23:38-Rev. 3:9) is like pulling teeth! You were brought up in them, your family is in them, [BUT CHRIST IS NOT!] (Josh. 7:12's last part of the verse='s FALSE Doctrine + teachers...READ THE FORUMS!)

If that helps?? then go to the K.J. on Eze. 9 for what the TRUE ONES OF GOD/CHRIST are doing at PRESENT and what is being seen in the last day. There are just two class seen here, and the issue is not about O.S.A.S. huh?

--Elijah

LOL OSAS is not a false doctrine no matter how many warning of hellfire you post.
The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal. I know how much that pains you to hear, but the Word is very clear.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 9My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The forgiveness of God through Christ is sufficient to cover all of our sins... past, present, and future.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Even grieving the Holy Spirit does not break the "seal"...only blaspheming Him is unpardonable.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

There is nothing too difficult for the Lord. I'm afraid hell won't be quite as full as some would like.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Praise His wonderful name. :amen

 

[Elijah674]

OK: Christ gave them promised Eternal life on [CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE]. They HAD IT until they gave it up. Then we see only the ones who DIED IN THE FAITH had a done deal.

OK: The other stuff of King Saul that another post stated that he would play along with God's Word.

It was not until Saul committed the Sin against the Holy Ghost and that God would NO LONGER ANSWER Saul, that he then went against God to bring a witch to counsel with. And there were several times in which saul disobeyed God before this one. (see the great transgression of full fruitage in Psalms 19:13 + James 1:15) The Word states that SAUL PRECEIVED THAT IT WAS SAMUAL..1 Sam. 28:3-15 And that 'God is departed from me.' And if you know anything about death as you teach, what was he doing deceding up out of the earth + if God would not 'hear' him, why would a dead Samuel??

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

OK: Christ gave them promised Eternal life on [CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE]. They HAD IT until they gave it up. Then we see only the ones who DIED IN THE FAITH had a done deal.

OK: The other stuff of King Saul that another post stated that he would play along with God's Word.

It was not until Saul committed the Sin against the Holy Ghost and that God would NO LONGER ANSWER Saul, that he then went against God to bring a witch to counsel with. And there were several times in which saul disobeyed God before this one. (see the great transgression of full fruitage in Psalms 19:13 + James 1:15) The Word states that SAUL PRECEIVED THAT IT WAS SAMUAL..1 Sam. 28:3-15 And that 'God is departed from me.' And if you know anything about death as you teach, what was he doing deceding up out of the earth + if God would not 'hear' him, why would a dead Samuel??

--Elijah

 

[glorydaz]

OK: Christ gave them promised Eternal life on [CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE]. They HAD IT until they gave it up. Then we see only the ones who DIED IN THE FAITH had a done deal.

OK: The other stuff of King Saul that another post stated that he would play along with God's Word.

It was not until Saul committed the Sin against the Holy Ghost and that God would NO LONGER ANSWER Saul, that he then went against God to bring a witch to counsel with. And there were several times in which saul disobeyed God before this one. (see the great transgression of full fruitage in Psalms 19:13 + James 1:15) The Word states that SAUL PRECEIVED THAT IT WAS SAMUAL..1 Sam. 28:3-15 And that 'God is departed from me.' And if you know anything about death as you teach, what was he doing deceding up out of the earth + if God would not 'hear' him, why would a dead Samuel??

--Elijah

Because Samuel was a prophet.

And David, though he slew Uriah the Hittite, was a man after God's own heart and says Saul and Jonathan were not divided at death. Samuel knew the same and spoke it.

5And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead? 6And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him. 7And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I. 8And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite. 9He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me. 10So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord. 11Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise all the men that were with him: 12And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword. 13And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite. 14And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD's anointed? 15And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died. 16And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have
slain the LORD's anointed. 17And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son: 18(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.) 19The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty fallen! 20Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Askelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph. 21Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew, neither let there be rain, upon you, nor fields of offerings: for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away, the shield of Saul, as though he had not been anointed with oil. 22From the blood of the slain, from the fat of the mighty, the bow of Jonathan turned not back, and the sword of Saul returned not empty. 23Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions. 24Ye daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, who clothed you in scarlet, with other delights, who put on ornaments of gold upon your apparel. 25How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. 26I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. 27How are the mighty fallen, and the weapons of war perished!

There are no conditions of obedience on the blood of Christ.
If that were the case, none would be saved. All men sin and come short of the glory of God.
It's Christ's obedience......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That's the point...that's why Christ came. If man were able to obey, Jesus need not have come.
There is nothing man can do except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he will be saved.

 

[Drew]

There are no conditions of obedience on the blood of Christ.
If that were the case, none would be saved. All men sin and come short of the glory of God.
It's Christ's obedience......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Three problems here (and I know we are digging up an old disagreement)

1. There are several clear statement linking ultimate salvation to ultimate salvation (Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, to name just a few);

2. The "obedience" that Jesus manifests is not "obedience to the Law", it is obedience to the covenantal obligations of Israel;

3. You are using texts about how unregenerate men are unable to live righteously. To this, we all agree. But the scriptures are clear - when one has entered into a faith relationship with Jesus, you are indeed empowered to live righteously. That is what Romans 8 is all about.

 

[glorydaz]

There are no conditions of obedience on the blood of Christ.
If that were the case, none would be saved. All men sin and come short of the glory of God.
It's Christ's obedience......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Three problems here (and I know we are digging up an old disagreement)

1. There are several clear statement linking ultimate salvation to ultimate salvation (Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, to name just a few);

2. The "obedience" that Jesus manifests is not "obedience to the Law", it is obedience to the covenantal obligations of Israel;

3. You are using texts about how unregenerate men are unable to live righteously. To this, we all agree. But the scriptures are clear - when one has entered into a faith relationship with Jesus, you are indeed empowered to live righteously. That is what Romans 8 is all about.

I certainly agree we're empowered to live righteously. However, we don't live righteously or walk in perfect obedience all the time. If we did, our Lord would not speak of chastening. Even the most mature believer will not walk in perfect obedience all the time. Does that mean we'll commit obvious sins seen by men? Of course not. It does mean that we have not yet attained "perfection." If we think we have, we are only fooling ourselves...

The Lord doesn't chasten us for no reason....the Word tells us all true sons are partakers of chastening. That pretty much sums it up. Without beating around the bush...none of us are perfect.

I do have to laugh at a particular word being changed to "sweethearts". The original word must not be politically correct. Too funny. :biglaugh

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[Cornelius]

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye sweethearts, and not sons.

Its the forum that changes that the word b*stards into sweethearts. Bad substitute

 

[glorydaz]

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye sweethearts, and not sons.

Its the forum that changes that the word b*stards into sweethearts. Bad substitute

LOL...very bad substitute. It took me three tries copy and pasting...thinking I'd gotten some other version by accident before I figured it out. :biglaugh

 

[Elijah674]

NO Eternal Covenant some say? But these ones HAVE Very False Teaching +'teachers!'
There is an old post from 05 'i' think, see if any can find the Eternal Covenant in it?? 1 John 4:6 --Elijah


T.J.,
Well what are they going to do with this inspiration? (smile) "And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man." Acts 10:25-26 Where do you suppose that Peter ever heard such inspiration? Maybe he had a N.T. in his shirt pocket, huh? Forget 2 Tim. 3:16's ALL? Never!!

Then there is another thought on this. Earthly man, Peter said? How about heavens folk?
"Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, (thats something! Them O.T. prophets too, huh?) and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." Rev. 22:9 Where do you find anything about Worship in inspiration that would be commanded for angels to observe? Surely Lucifer can be saved by grace, huh? Try Heb. 6:6. Just some reverse spiritual science T.J.!

Have you ever sang the song, coming around the mountain? It reminds me of some folk today 'leaving' there flower beds. Or as the saying goes that they are coming out of the woodwork!
Hay, how about Jude 10? "These speak evil of those things which they know not...Woe unto them....." O' that was angels again? Angels were in the O.T. book & back a space or two perhaps?

Have got to get to bed, but here is one more on an maturely serious note. And in part only:
"For if after they have escaped the pollution's of this world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, [the latter end is worse with them than the beginning]. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the Holy commandment delivered unto them. But it happened unto them according to the proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; (don't miss this one, haw!) and the [sow that was washed to her] wallowing in the mire."
2 Peter 2:21-22.

One thing is for sure T.J., these ones will not have long to wait to find out what law it is that they will be judged by! James 2: 8-12 Sorry friend, but just one more, OK?

"And they shall be as though they had not been." Obad. 16 But this is there own decision that they had made!
If we could just grasp this? Lay in bed & think what it would be like to just not be!? To never, never exist again! Then, maybe 'we' would see just how 'straight talk' needs to be done for these folk while we still have time? (or rather that they still do?)
Pastor N.B.

 

[Elijah674]

There are no conditions of obedience on the blood of Christ.
If that were the case, none would be saved. All men sin and come short of the glory of God.
It's Christ's obedience......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Three problems here (and I know we are digging up an old disagreement)

1. There are several clear statement linking ultimate salvation to ultimate salvation (Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, to name just a few);

2. The "obedience" that Jesus manifests is not "obedience to the Law", it is obedience to the covenantal obligations of Israel;

3. You are using texts about how unregenerate men are unable to live righteously. To this, we all agree. But the scriptures are clear - when one has entered into a faith relationship with Jesus, you are indeed empowered to live righteously. That is what Romans 8 is all about.

There are no conditions of obedience on the blood of Christ.
If that were the case, none would be saved. All men sin and come short of the glory of God.
It's Christ's obedience......

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[/quote]
Three problems here (and I know we are digging up an old disagreement)

1. There are several clear statement linking ultimate salvation to ultimate salvation (Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, to name just a few);

2. The "obedience" that Jesus manifests is not "obedience to the Law", it is obedience to the covenantal obligations of Israel;

3. You are using texts about how unregenerate men are unable to live righteously. To this, we all agree. But the scriptures are clear - when one has entered into a faith relationship with Jesus, you are indeed empowered to live righteously. That is what Romans 8 is all about.[/quote]

Let me get this straight?? Are you saying that with Christ/God in the O.T. Sanctuary Camp of the saints & even with Christ/God/Son in person on earth, that in that one location, that it was not in the full POWER of the Godhead?? Remember that [WHEN CHRIST LEFT] He sent the Holy Spirit [TO NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF BUT TO TESTIFY OF ME], Christ said. The difference is that now CHRIST IS OMNIPRESENT! Mankind was always Saved by the CONDITION OF BEING BORN AGAIN!

And about Obedience to Christ's Eternsal Law?? See Isa. 42:21 for why Christ came. Christ proved that the creation of Adam was not flawed!

--Elijah