What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

It's more clear now why you have invented this 'other' law--a law that justifies--since you believe that 'law of faith' means a literal set of rules, one that earns a person a declaration of righteous by doing them.

Do you believe that a principle of faith is: Faith without works is dead? James 2:26

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:21-24

In the context of what James teaches us, do you understand that the works that James is referring to is the work of obedience?

In other words, Abraham obeyed the Voice of God, who specifically told him to sacrifice his son Isaac.

Abraham received faith when he heard God instruct him to offer Isaac on the altar.

It wasn't until Abraham obeyed God in carrying out His instructions of offering Isaac on the altar, that he was justified by God.

...was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.

Likewise when a person hears the Gospel Message: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand... if they don't obey the command to repent, by confessing with their mouth the Lord Jesus, then they have not obeyed the Gospel.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

If you don't agree with this principle of faith called obedience, then please show me why with scripture.


Please don't "make up" any more stories about some law that I have supposedly made up.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe your under the impression that obeying the Gospel is somehow trying to earn your salvation?

No, I'm under the impression that you think doing a righteous act (as long as it's not in the law of Moses) in and of itself has the power to make a person righteous, because that's how you're coming across. You always come across this way when you talk about justification. You don't make it clear whether you think the believing all by itself, apart from the work it produces, makes the person righteous in God's sight, or whether the work that believing produces makes the person righteous in God's sight. Right now I pretty much see you as the latter.


"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

In the verse above, it's not that a person does nothing when they believe and are justified. It's just that the believing ALL BY IT SELF is what solicits the justification. Work must accompany that faith, not because the work has power to solicit God's justification, or even that you don't really believe until you act, but because of what it means to 'have faith' work is what the faith that justifies does.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you believe that a principle of faith is: Faith without works is dead? James 2:26

I believe the faith that does not eventually produce work is simply not faith. That's all.

The work that faith produces has no power to solicit God's justification. Only faith in God's forgiveness can do that. The problem with your doctrine is you have the work securing the justification. Paul plainly said it is the believing in the heart that does that:

"10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

The actual justification is accomplished by the believing, not by the work the believing produces. I know what you're going to say, but first look up the definition of 'justified' and 'saved' before you go there. They are NOT one and the same thing.

It wasn't until Abraham obeyed God in carrying out His instructions of offering Isaac on the altar, that he was justified by God.

Then God was a liar when he said he was justified long before that when he believed in Genesis 15.

"6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. " (Genesis 15:6 NASB)

I'm going to go with the Bible on this one. And don't tell me he did righteous work before that and that's why God declared him righteous at that time, because you just got done saying he wasn't declared righteous until he offered up Isaac.

...was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.

This has been explained to you at length several times. What will it take for you to admit the fact that 'justify' has two meanings in scripture and that it's IMPOSSIBLE that James is using the same meaning of 'justify' as Paul? Because if he is using the same exact meaning of 'justify' as Paul then he is directly contradicting Paul's teaching. This has been explained to you.

 

[JLB]

No, I'm under the impression that you think doing a righteous act (as long as it's not in the law of Moses) in and of itself has the power to make a person righteous, because that's how you're coming across.

Hopefully now you see the difference in obeying the Gospel and doing righteous works.

No, I'm under the impression that you think doing a righteous act (as long as it's not in the law of Moses) in and of itself has the power to make a person righteous, because that's how you're coming across. You always come across this way when you talk about justification. You don't make it clear whether you think the believing all by itself, apart from the work it produces, makes the person righteous in God's sight, or whether the work that believing produces makes the person righteous in God's sight. Right now I pretty much see you as the latter.


"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

In the verse above, it's not that a person does nothing when they believe and are justified. It's just that the believing ALL BY IT SELF is what solicits the justification. Work must accompany that faith, not because the work has power to solicit God's justification, or even that you don't really believe until you act, but because of what it means to 'have faith' work is what the faith that justifies does.

Work must accompany faith ?
What work?

I have said obedience, you are talking work.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hopefully now you see the difference in obeying the Gospel and doing righteous works.

18'You shall not...bear any grudge against the sons of your people..." Leviticus 19:18 NASB

In your doctrine, when a person does the above, have they done a righteous work, or are they being obedient?

When Jesus got baptized by John, was Jesus doing a righteous work, or was he being obedient (Matthew 3:15 NASB)?

 

[JLB]

This has been explained to you at length several times. What will it take for you to admit the fact that 'justify' has two meanings in scripture and that it's IMPOSSIBLE that James is using the same meaning of 'justify' as Paul? Because if he is using the same exact meaning of 'justify' as Paul then he is directly contradicting Paul's teaching. This has been explained to you.

I have explain this to you many times. Paul refers to the works of the law, while James refers to the obedience of faith.

You have yet to actually address my post, as you have not addressed the explanation I gave concerning REPENT and The action of obedience of confessing with your mouth.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

Salvation is realized when the action of obedience is made, of confessing Jesus as Lord.

Likewise, we see this same principle of faith in action in the life of Abraham.

Was not our father Abraham justified WHEN he offered Isaac up on the altar?

In both cases it was the action of obedience, that brings about the divine result.

Please actually address what I've said about repent and confessing Jesus as Lord, concerning obedience.

JLB

 

[JLB]

18'You shall not...bear any grudge against the sons of your people..." Leviticus 19:18 NASB

In your doctrine, when a person does the above, have they done a righteous work, or are they being obedient?

When Jesus got baptized by John, was Jesus doing a righteous work, or was he being obedient (Matthew 3:15 NASB)?

Is either of these examples a persons response to the Gospel Message?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you saying the Abrahamic covenant is a covenant of law?

I'm saying there were God's laws that were a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, that were being transgressed by the children of Israel.

These laws were kept by Abraham, and kept by faith, as Abraham heard the Voice of God, and walked before Him.

So the law was added, BECAUSE these commandments were being violated [transgressed].

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions... Galatians 3:19


What I see, from the scriptures, both old and new testament, is the command to "walk before Me and be blameless" is the primary commandment, that enables a person to keep the laws and precepts and commandments... the way Abraham did.

The way it is taught to us in the new covenant is; walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

In the act of walking with God, in His presence, one must first turn to God, then the relationship begins.

David said it this way - Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me... when we stay within the reach of the rod and staff of our Shepherd, we find comfort.



JLB

 

[JLB]

In the verse above, it's not that a person does nothing when they believe and are justified.

That would be your opinion, but it certainly is not scripture.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

He saved us... the way we are saved is by our response to the Gospel. He does the saving, not us by any righteous thing we have done, but by our obedient response to obey the Gospel, which is to believe in our heart and confess with our mouth.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Is believing made unto salvation or is the act confession made unto salvation?

...both believing and the act of confession with the mouth. = obedience.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is either of these examples a persons response to the Gospel Message?

Yes, both of these are responses to the gospel message:

18 'You shall not...bear any grudge against the sons of your people..." Leviticus 19:18 NASB

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" 15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him." (Matthew 3:13-15 NASB)

So what are they, works of righteousness, or obedience?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm saying there were God's laws that were a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, that were being transgressed by the children of Israel.

These laws were kept by Abraham, and kept by faith, as Abraham heard the Voice of God, and walked before Him.

So the law was added, BECAUSE these commandments were being violated [transgressed].

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions... Galatians 3:19

Opinions are fine of what Paul meant by saying the law was added because of transgressions, but your's doesn't actually match what Paul said himself in Romans about why the law was added:

"20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase" (Romans 5:20 NASB)

"19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no * flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:19-20 NASB)

You see the law was added in order to make it obvious to the world that they are sinful, and thus, in need of a savior. The law was added because man is sinful and God wanted to make it apparent and without argument just how sinful we really are. The law brings to light the sinfulness of mankind. That's what it means for the law to be added because of man's transgression.

 

[JLB]

Opinions are fine of what Paul meant by saying the law was added because of transgressions, but your's doesn't actually match what Paul said himself in Romans about why the law was added:

"20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase" (Romans 5:20 NASB)

No opinion to it.

This is the scripture Paul wrote -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions... Galatians 3:19

Please read what the scripture says, so you don't get confused with what is opinion and what is scripture.

God's law was being transgressed 430 years before the law was added.

The laws and commandments that Abraham kept, as he walked with God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You see the law was added in order to make it obvious to the world that they are sinful, and thus, in need of a savior.

The law of Moses was added to teach the children of Israel, what God taught Abraham as he walked with Him.

The law of Moses was for the children of Israel, and made them distinct from the nations, thus creating a "middle wall" separating the children of Israel from the Gentiles.

If the law of Moses was for the world, then there would be no distinction or separating wall, defining the people of God from the nations.


14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-15


The law of Moses was added to define the commandments and laws of God that Abraham kept, as he was taught by God.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

//

No opinion to it.

This is the scripture Paul wrote -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions... Galatians 3:19

Just curious, what translation adds 'it was because the descendants of Abraham were sinning against the covenant so God gave them the law' to the verse? The passage itself defies this explanation. It talks about law NOT being able to deal with the problem of transgression, contrary to what you're saying. And the passage actually says what I said it means, that the law was given to condemn men further in their transgressions:

"But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:22 NASB)

 

[JLB]

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:22 NASB)

Sorry Brother,

The law of Moses is not mentioned in this verse.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions... Galatians 3:19

God's law was being transgressed 430 years before the law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

Transgression means there was law!


JLB

 

[JLB]

"But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:22 NASB)

Scripture has shut up everyone under sin.

That would be Genesis, Adam's sin brought sin unto all mankind, 2000 years before the law of Moses was added.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- Romans 5:12


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of God is the law of Moses. We know this by the fact that Paul said when we love others as ourselves we fulfill, not destroy, all the law of Moses.
Through our obedient faith all the law of Moses is continually upheld and fulfilled, not destroyed by our obedient faith:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB capitals in original)

What our faith did remove in the law of Moses was the WAY we continually uphold and fulfill the law of Moses:

"we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NASB)

That old way being the literal way to serve God in the old covenant (days, weeks, months, race, etc.), and the old way of serving in the powerlessness of just written words, in the flesh.

But even the laws of days, and weeks, and months, and race, etc., etc. of the law of Moses are upheld and fulfilled, not destroyed and violated, by this new way of faith in God--just not upheld literally in the old way of the letter of the law. Thus ALL the law is fulfilled, not destroyed by "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6 NASB).

 

[JLB]

The law of God is the law of Moses.

The law of Moses was a complete law that required the children of Israel to obey all of the commandments contained in ordinances such as clothing laws, food laws, Sabbath commandments, feast days, animal sacrifices, Levitical Priest Requirments for the Tabernacle/Temple... Every single one of these requirements together made up the law of Moses.

The Abrahamic Covenant nor the New Covenant have these ordinances as requirments for the covenant people to obey.

The 10 Commandments however were Gods Commandments before the law of Moses, during the law of Moses and after the law of Moses was declared obsolete and abolished.


JLB

 

[JLB]

"we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NASB)

We serve in the new way...

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

clothing laws, food laws, Sabbath commandments, feast days, animal sacrifices, Levitical Priest Requirments for the Tabernacle/Temple... Every single one of these requirements together made up the law of Moses.

The Abrahamic Covenant nor the New Covenant have these ordinances as requirments for the covenant people to obey.

Every single one of these remains a requirement for the Covenant people of God. Now we serve these requirements according to the true tabernacle in heaven, not according to the copies (Hebrews 9:11,24 NASB).

It would be grand if we could just say 'law of Moses' only means the parts that got laid aside and this discussion would be over, but even you acknowledge that laws like 'love your neighbor as yourself' are the law of Moses. Paul says those laws remain the outstanding debt of the law of Moses that obedient faith continually pays on a case by case basis and which is never paid in full, but continues:

"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep" (Romans 13:8-11 NASB capitals in original)

I see him plainly saying we fulfill the law of Moses when we keep Leviticus 19:18 NASB, even quoting the very written words of the law of Moses. It's impossible to say we do not 'keep' the law of Moses in this New Covenant when Paul says we do.