What happens at the end when Christ comes.

[Hobie]

You have to understand what will happen when Christ comes, and its purpose, the 'secret rapture' has no purpose but confusion to let Satan apear as a false christ and mislead. Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:40,“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.â€

But people are trying to take it out of context to push the secret rapture when Christ gave a complete picture as shown below...

Matthew 24:27 - Jesus said,“For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even to the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†This verse is clearly describing Christ’s visible and ultra-glorious Second Coming. Very few disagree here.

Matthew 24:30, 31 - Jesus continued,“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.†Once again, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is clearly described. This coming will be literal, visible, loud and glorious. All the world will see and hear it.

Matthew 24:36 -“But of that day [the day of the Second Coming] and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My father only.†Once again, the context is clearly the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:37-39 -“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†Jesus clearly compares His Second Coming with Noah’s flood. This flood came suddenly upon the lost “and took them all away.†In other words, they were lost - with no second chances. Christ said,“...so shall the coming of the Son of man be.â€

Matthew 24:40 -“THEN [capitols added] shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.†This verse clearly is describing how some will be taken up and the wicked left at the salvation of the saints at the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the world?

Hobie, your problem is, you are trying to make verses relate to the rapture of the church, when they were not about the rapture at all. Was Jesus speaking to Paul when He made this discourse? Of course he was not. Much of what He said was related to Daniel's 70th week. Again, it is not Paul's 70th week, as if it related to the church at all. No, it is DANIEL's 70th week because the entire purpose is for the JEWS (Hebrews). People try to insert the church into the Oliviet discourse, when in truth, the church would be years in coming. The truth is, Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received a revelation of the rapture of the church. Therefore, to find out ANYTHING about the rapture, you will have to look at Paul's writings. The verses speaking of the two where one is taken and one is left: sorry, that may be true of the rapture, but Luke tells us where those taken are taken. Those verses are simply not about the rapture. They ARE about the parable of the tares.

That parable is not about the rapture either, but it certainly will happen, when Christ comes on the white horse. The point Jesus was making with Noah was the SUDDENESS of the destruction. People want to add meaning to what Jesus said, and argue about who was taken and who was left - but that was NOT the point Jesus was making. I think you understand this. And when Jesus comes, and the parable of the tares is played out - you are right - no more chances.

As for the elect being gathered: why do you think that is speaking of the rapture? At the rapture, we become LIKE THE ANGELS and will have no need whatsoever for angels to gather us. That verse is speaking of gathering humans in natural bodies. Jesus with gather all the Jews back to Israel. Sorry, no rapture in that verse.

Coop

The Rapture is unbiblical, was never spoken of by Christ, was never believed in by the apostles or Paul or the early church, nor the Reformers, it is a lie invented to fight the truth, to deflect what the Bible teaches showing who is the Antichrist. In order to stop the hemorrhage from Papal Rome , 2 Jesuits invented a counter-interpretation called Futurism. At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bible’s Antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), a brilliant Jesuit priest and doctor of theology from Spain. In 1590, Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem. Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of God—asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers. He set on an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God. The result of his work was a twisting and maligning of prophetic truth.

Robert Bellarmine was an Italian doctor of theology and is best known for his opposition to Galileo and his HELLiocentric theory. He also wrote a book in Latin entitled: Disputationes de controversiis christianae fidei, or Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time. In these lectures, he agreed with Ribera. This book follows the basic outline of Francisco de Ribera's book with the reign of Antichrist limited to a few years way off in the future before the end of time.

In the Futurism system of Ribera and Bellarmine, Antichrist is an evil person who emerges just 7 years before the end of time and causes all kinds of havoc. In the English speaking world, Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby further elaborated on this system by inventing a secret rapture 7 years before the end. Historicism was the primary prophetic viewpoint of the Protestant Reformers which the Catholic church sought to counteract. In direct opposition to Historicism, and rising up as a counterattack on Protestantism, was that of the Jesuits with their viewpoint of Futurism, which basically says, “The Antichrist prophecies have nothing to do with the history of Papal Rome, rather, they apply to only one sinister man who comes at the end.â€

Thus Jesuit Futurism sweeps 1,500 years of prophetic history under the proverbial rug by inserting its theory, which teaches that when Rome fell, prophecy stopped, only to continue again right around the time of the 'rapture'. It is a lie from start to finish...


Here is a good description:
The foundation of the rapture theory was laid over 400 years ago upon the specific orders of the Catholic Church. Every Christian needs to understand how this fabrication of error was designed to neutralize the great Protestant Reformation. If the facts of history were known by Protestants today who defend with such great emotion the rapture theory and the futurist antichrist doctrine, they would be horrified.Luther and his fellow reformers boldly identified the pope as the "man of sin," and labeled the Catholic Church as the antichrist of prophecy. In response to those charges, the hierarchy assigned two Jesuit priests to develop counter-interpretations which would turn the onus away from the Catholic Church. In spite of the fact that the two men founded opposing schools of interpretation, their theories have survived to form the basis of most modern Protestant theology today. Not only did they effectively blunt Luther's assessment of the papacy as the antichrist, but they cleverly divided and diluted the "protest" of all the churches which grew out of the Reformation movement.
http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instruct ... e-rapture/

and this really explains it good:
What is the Secret rapture theory?
According to those teaching the secret rapture theory, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate stages. The first will be a secret rapture of the Church at the beginning of a seven year tribulation period followed by a glorious, triumphant return of Christ to the Earth accompanied by the Church at the end of the seven year period. They believe that during this seven year period the Antichrist is going to come into power and God will select and seal 144,000 literal Jews who will take the Gospel to the whole world converting immeasurable souls to Christ. They also believe the battle of Armageddon is a literal national war against literal Israel, which occurs near the end of the seven years and is brought to a halt by Christ’s return with His Church. Then literal Israel accepts the Lord as the Messiah and enters with Him as His covenant people into the 1,000 year (millennial) reign on earth known as the Kingdom Age. Christ will rule directly over the earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem, where the typical temple services function again. Those who ultimately reject Christ’s rule are eventually judged and destroyed at the end of the Millennium. The new believers will then receive immortality and eternity will begin.

However, the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings and the word “rapture†is also an invention of theologians and occurs nowhere in the Bible. The deception does not stop there, Christians also debate whether we will be taken before the tribulation or in the middle of the seven years or at the completion of the seven year tribulation. These are called pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation and post tribulation. Now for the most amazing part of these views in regards to the seven year tribulation period; are you ready for this? It was manufactured by a Jesuit Priest who was commissioned to come up with this false interpretation of Bible Prophecy. This raises many questions, such as why was this done and how could so many be drawn into this lie. I hope you will read on as we cover all aspects of this topic and reveal the Bible truth.
http://www.secret-rapture.com/

 

[lecoop]

You have to understand what will happen when Christ comes, and its purpose, the 'secret rapture' has no purpose but confusion to let Satan apear as a false christ and mislead. Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:40,“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.â€

But people are trying to take it out of context to push the secret rapture when Christ gave a complete picture as shown below...

Matthew 24:27 - Jesus said,“For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even to the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†This verse is clearly describing Christ’s visible and ultra-glorious Second Coming. Very few disagree here.

Matthew 24:30, 31 - Jesus continued,“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.†Once again, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is clearly described. This coming will be literal, visible, loud and glorious. All the world will see and hear it.

Matthew 24:36 -“But of that day [the day of the Second Coming] and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My father only.†Once again, the context is clearly the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:37-39 -“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†Jesus clearly compares His Second Coming with Noah’s flood. This flood came suddenly upon the lost “and took them all away.†In other words, they were lost - with no second chances. Christ said,“...so shall the coming of the Son of man be.â€

Matthew 24:40 -“THEN [capitols added] shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.†This verse clearly is describing how some will be taken up and the wicked left at the salvation of the saints at the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the world?

Hobie, your problem is, you are trying to make verses relate to the rapture of the church, when they were not about the rapture at all. Was Jesus speaking to Paul when He made this discourse? Of course he was not. Much of what He said was related to Daniel's 70th week. Again, it is not Paul's 70th week, as if it related to the church at all. No, it is DANIEL's 70th week because the entire purpose is for the JEWS (Hebrews). People try to insert the church into the Oliviet discourse, when in truth, the church would be years in coming. The truth is, Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received a revelation of the rapture of the church. Therefore, to find out ANYTHING about the rapture, you will have to look at Paul's writings. The verses speaking of the two where one is taken and one is left: sorry, that may be true of the rapture, but Luke tells us where those taken are taken. Those verses are simply not about the rapture. They ARE about the parable of the tares.

That parable is not about the rapture either, but it certainly will happen, when Christ comes on the white horse. The point Jesus was making with Noah was the SUDDENESS of the destruction. People want to add meaning to what Jesus said, and argue about who was taken and who was left - but that was NOT the point Jesus was making. I think you understand this. And when Jesus comes, and the parable of the tares is played out - you are right - no more chances.

As for the elect being gathered: why do you think that is speaking of the rapture? At the rapture, we become LIKE THE ANGELS and will have no need whatsoever for angels to gather us. That verse is speaking of gathering humans in natural bodies. Jesus with gather all the Jews back to Israel. Sorry, no rapture in that verse.

Coop

The Rapture is unbiblical, was never spoken of by Christ, was never believed in by the apostles or Paul or the early church, nor the Reformers, it is a lie invented to fight the truth, to deflect what the Bible teaches showing who is the Antichrist. In order to stop the hemorrhage from Papal Rome , 2 Jesuits invented a counter-interpretation called Futurism. At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bible’s Antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), a brilliant Jesuit priest and doctor of theology from Spain. In 1590, Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem. Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of God—asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers. He set on an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God. The result of his work was a twisting and maligning of prophetic truth.

Robert Bellarmine was an Italian doctor of theology and is best known for his opposition to Galileo and his HELLiocentric theory. He also wrote a book in Latin entitled: Disputationes de controversiis christianae fidei, or Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time. In these lectures, he agreed with Ribera. This book follows the basic outline of Francisco de Ribera's book with the reign of Antichrist limited to a few years way off in the future before the end of time.

In the Futurism system of Ribera and Bellarmine, Antichrist is an evil person who emerges just 7 years before the end of time and causes all kinds of havoc. In the English speaking world, Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby further elaborated on this system by inventing a secret rapture 7 years before the end. Historicism was the primary prophetic viewpoint of the Protestant Reformers which the Catholic church sought to counteract. In direct opposition to Historicism, and rising up as a counterattack on Protestantism, was that of the Jesuits with their viewpoint of Futurism, which basically says, “The Antichrist prophecies have nothing to do with the history of Papal Rome, rather, they apply to only one sinister man who comes at the end.â€

Thus Jesuit Futurism sweeps 1,500 years of prophetic history under the proverbial rug by inserting its theory, which teaches that when Rome fell, prophecy stopped, only to continue again right around the time of the 'rapture'. It is a lie from start to finish...


Here is a good description:
The foundation of the rapture theory was laid over 400 years ago upon the specific orders of the Catholic Church. Every Christian needs to understand how this fabrication of error was designed to neutralize the great Protestant Reformation. If the facts of history were known by Protestants today who defend with such great emotion the rapture theory and the futurist antichrist doctrine, they would be horrified.Luther and his fellow reformers boldly identified the pope as the "man of sin," and labeled the Catholic Church as the antichrist of prophecy. In response to those charges, the hierarchy assigned two Jesuit priests to develop counter-interpretations which would turn the onus away from the Catholic Church. In spite of the fact that the two men founded opposing schools of interpretation, their theories have survived to form the basis of most modern Protestant theology today. Not only did they effectively blunt Luther's assessment of the papacy as the antichrist, but they cleverly divided and diluted the "protest" of all the churches which grew out of the Reformation movement.
http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instruct ... e-rapture/

and this really explains it good:
What is the Secret rapture theory?
According to those teaching the secret rapture theory, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate stages. The first will be a secret rapture of the Church at the beginning of a seven year tribulation period followed by a glorious, triumphant return of Christ to the Earth accompanied by the Church at the end of the seven year period. They believe that during this seven year period the Antichrist is going to come into power and God will select and seal 144,000 literal Jews who will take the Gospel to the whole world converting immeasurable souls to Christ. They also believe the battle of Armageddon is a literal national war against literal Israel, which occurs near the end of the seven years and is brought to a halt by Christ’s return with His Church. Then literal Israel accepts the Lord as the Messiah and enters with Him as His covenant people into the 1,000 year (millennial) reign on earth known as the Kingdom Age. Christ will rule directly over the earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem, where the typical temple services function again. Those who ultimately reject Christ’s rule are eventually judged and destroyed at the end of the Millennium. The new believers will then receive immortality and eternity will begin.

However, the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings and the word “rapture†is also an invention of theologians and occurs nowhere in the Bible. The deception does not stop there, Christians also debate whether we will be taken before the tribulation or in the middle of the seven years or at the completion of the seven year tribulation. These are called pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation and post tribulation. Now for the most amazing part of these views in regards to the seven year tribulation period; are you ready for this? It was manufactured by a Jesuit Priest who was commissioned to come up with this false interpretation of Bible Prophecy. This raises many questions, such as why was this done and how could so many be drawn into this lie. I hope you will read on as we cover all aspects of this topic and reveal the Bible truth.
http://www.secret-rapture.com/

Hobie, I am going to make a supposition here: that you can read and have at least some understand of what you read.

Hebrews 9
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is written in quite plain English: Jesus will come and appear a second time ONLY unto those that are looking for Him. WHY is He coming here? To bring salvation to those looking for Him.

Read it in the Amplified version:

28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and [a]once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.

Now, please compare that with this:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Sorry, but if Christ returns ONLY ONCE, then God is a liar. These two verses simply cannot be compared, because they are describing TWO DIFFERENT COMINGS. In the first coming, He appears ONLY to those that are LOOKING for Him. Here every eye sees Him. The truth is, these two comings are about 7 years apart. If you understood John's chronology in Revelation, I would not even be discussing this with you, for you would already KNOW that the huge crowd too large to number, seen in heaven in chapter 7 IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH. Rosenthal and Van Kampen got that part right in their books. John shows us this great crowd, BEFORE HE EVEN BEGINS the 70th week. Therefore, it is most certainly a PRE-TRIB rapture.

My question to you is, WHY are you fighting this so much? Everything you wrote above is MYTH. PAUL was the first man to write about a pretrib rapture. Go back and read it again: 1 Thes, 4:17 & 18.

Then turn to chapter five and read it: for Paul makes it quite clear: for US it is salvation and NO Appointment with wrath, but for THEM, it is sudden destruction. If you want to read more about Paul's sudden destruction, go and read about the world wide earthquake at the 6th seal. You will notice that the huge crowd in heaven are seen right AFTER the 6th seal. So why do the US and WE in 1 Thes. 5 NOT see the sudden destruction? Becuase we are RAPTURED just before the sudden destruction.

In fact, the world wide earthquake will be CAUSED by the dead in Christ rising from their graves. THAT is what causes the sudden destruction Paul is speaking about.

Finally, do you understand that you are on a public forum, teaching FALSE DOCTRINE, and that God will hold you responsible?

Coop

 

[veteran]

It's true, the word "rapture" does not appear anywhere in God's Word, including the manuscripts. It's from a Latin rendering of the Greek word harpazo, translated as "caught up" in the KJV Bible. With the idea of being "caught up" in 1 Thess.4, it does signify the resurrection that is to happen at Christ's return, His second coming.

Nor is there any idea of a "secret rapture" written in God's Word. Hobie is very correct on that point too, and correct on the history of the "secret rapture" theory origins with Ribera, Edward Irving, John Darby, et al.

Many verses often used by pre-trib secret rapture folks are taken out of the Biblical context where they appear, with the "secret rapture" theory being added on top of them. In Rom.5:9, Paul mentions that being justified through Christ's Blood we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Paul does not go into detail of what "wrath" he was speaking of there, nor gives any more detail there than saying Christ will save us from wrath. It's impossible to get a "secret rapture" from that.

In 1 Thess.5, Paul says God has not appointed us to wrath. He goes into more detail of what wrath he was speaking of there, for he mentions about the "sudden destruction" that is to come upon the deceived who refuse to remain sober and watching the endtime "times and the seasons". He even gives the timing of Christ's return with the day of The Lord linked with Christ coming as a thief in the night in which many will be suddenly surprised at His return. The context of the wrath he spoke of is the cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked at Christ's coming. Per Rev.16, Zeph.3:8, and examples Adam posted earlier, that wrath happens at the END of the tribulation when Christ returns. There's no way to get a pre-tribulational "secret rapture" doctrine out of that, except by wrongly adding it to the Scripture.

In 1 Thess.1:10, we are simply admonished to wait for Christ when He comes, Whom Paul says has delivered us from the wrath to come. Once again, that wrath is about His cup of wrath to be poured out upon the wicked at His coming, and is a marker for the end of the tribulation. There is no "secret rapture" idea being given by Paul there. It is being added or assumed by those on the pre-trib secret rapture theory.

In John 14:3, Christ reveals to HIs disciples that He will prepare a place for them, to receive them to Himself where He is. Again, there is no timing given there when that will be, only He says, "I will come again". His coming again means a return, just one other coming, a second coming. Christ's first coming was to die on the cross. His return is HIs only other coming written of in God's Word. To know 'when', other Scriptures that do give direct statement of His return must be heeded, like in Matt.24 when our Lord showed His coming to gather the saints is after the tribulation. But in John 14:3, we are only given the idea that He will come again. There's no way to discern a pre-trib secret rapture from that verse unless one simply adds... it to the Scripture.

In the previous John 14:2 verse, Christ tells them He goes to prepare a place for His disciples, that in His Father's house are many mansions. The KJV word "mansions" means abodes per the Greek, and that is a direct reference to the Millennial House written of in Ezekiel 40 through 48. Per the layout of God's House in Ezekiel, the abodes of the priests are lined around the sanctuary and oblation. Christ is pointing directly to the time of His Milennial reign when speaking of those "mansions" and The Father's House, which is to be established during Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth. In other words, that's not going to be manifested until after His return and after His wrath upon the wicked, pointing once again to after the tribulation. And it's to be manifested upon the earth, which is where Rev.5:10 says His elect kings and priests will rule with Him from.

Likewise with the Rev.19:7-9 Scripture, there is no specific timing of a pre-trib "secret rapture" given within that. John is given a vision of many people in Heaven, and it is said God "hath judged the great whore" and "hath avenged the blood of His servants". That's a past tense pointer to after God's wrath and judgment upon the great whore Babylon. So the vision is pointing to AFTER Christ's judgment for this world, and after His second coming. That's why those many people are seen in Heaven, because that past tense points to the end of this world already being over, and Christ's coming and gathering of His saints already having happenned too. That's why those are seen in Heaven with Him at the first part of the Rev.19 chapter. But at Rev.19:11, the subject changes to Christ's coming on a white horse for war, to defeat the kings and mighty men of the earth, covering back to the time of His wrath upon the wicked just prior to His avenging of His servants.

 

[veteran]

Concerning Hebrews 9:28, the phrase "unto them that look for Him". That points to warnings like Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 with those of Christ's servants who remain spiritually sober and watching the times and the seasons, vs. those who are drunken in the night and will be deceived. Believers who don't watch the times won't be looking for Christ's return. This is why Christ's Salvation will only be for those who remain spiritually sober and watching the times and the seasons God's Word gives about the events leading up to Christ's return.

Thus, that Hebrews 9:28 verse is not pointing to any such pre-trib secret rapture theory. The "second time" He will appear is His second coming, not a third nor fourth coming. His first coming was when He came to die on the cross. His second coming will be to pour out His wrath upon the wicked and gather His saints to Him. There are no other comings of The LORD. One return only is what's written. But the pre-trib "secret rapture" theory preaches a secret coming to gather His saints BEFORE the tribulation, and then another or third coming back to earth at the end of the tribulation. That's more than one return. The Heb.9:28 verse is ACTUALLY pointing to only one other coming of our Lord Jesus, His return. It's not difficult to count, one (first coming and ascension) then two (second coming or return). And that's what the phrase "second time" means. This reveals how those on the pre-trib "secret rapture" lie are the ones spiritually drunken in the night with their false doctrine. They are so drunken with it spiritually, they refuse to believe the simplicity of the Scriptures.

Concerning what the Reformers understood in their day about the coming of the antichrist; yes, they thought it was the pope in their day. That also means they would not be looking for another antichrist after that. But today we have newer signs being given us. The sign of today's nation state of Israel did not appear in their days, nor the plan to build another temple in Jerusalem. Nor did the signs of one world globalism and the joining of all nations under a one world government system appear in their days. These latter signs have only begun appearing since the late 1800's to today. So staying on the Reformer's doctrines about the antichrist they saw in their day is only another way to be deceived for the end of days. It can become just as much a drunken in the night doctrine as the pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine, going to the other extreme in wrongly thinking that Christ's second coming has already happened.

 

[lecoop]

It's true, the word "rapture" does not appear anywhere in God's Word, including the manuscripts. It's from a Latin rendering of the Greek word harpazo, translated as "caught up" in the KJV Bible. With the idea of being "caught up" in 1 Thess.4, it does signify the resurrection that is to happen at Christ's return, His second coming.

Nor is there any idea of a "secret rapture" written in God's Word. Hobie is very correct on that point too, and correct on the history of the "secret rapture" theory origins with Ribera, Edward Irving, John Darby, et al.

Many verses often used by pre-trib secret rapture folks are taken out of the Biblical context where they appear, with the "secret rapture" theory being added on top of them. In Rom.5:9, Paul mentions that being justified through Christ's Blood we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Paul does not go into detail of what "wrath" he was speaking of there, nor gives any more detail there than saying Christ will save us from wrath. It's impossible to get a "secret rapture" from that.

In 1 Thess.5, Paul says God has not appointed us to wrath. He goes into more detail of what wrath he was speaking of there, for he mentions about the "sudden destruction" that is to come upon the deceived who refuse to remain sober and watching the endtime "times and the seasons". He even gives the timing of Christ's return with the day of The Lord linked with Christ coming as a thief in the night in which many will be suddenly surprised at His return. The context of the wrath he spoke of is the cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked at Christ's coming. Per Rev.16, Zeph.3:8, and examples Adam posted earlier, that wrath happens at the END of the tribulation when Christ returns. There's no way to get a pre-tribulational "secret rapture" doctrine out of that, except by wrongly adding it to the Scripture.

In 1 Thess.1:10, we are simply admonished to wait for Christ when He comes, Whom Paul says has delivered us from the wrath to come. Once again, that wrath is about His cup of wrath to be poured out upon the wicked at His coming, and is a marker for the end of the tribulation. There is no "secret rapture" idea being given by Paul there. It is being added or assumed by those on the pre-trib secret rapture theory.

In John 14:3, Christ reveals to HIs disciples that He will prepare a place for them, to receive them to Himself where He is. Again, there is no timing given there when that will be, only He says, "I will come again". His coming again means a return, just one other coming, a second coming. Christ's first coming was to die on the cross. His return is HIs only other coming written of in God's Word. To know 'when', other Scriptures that do give direct statement of His return must be heeded, like in Matt.24 when our Lord showed His coming to gather the saints is after the tribulation. But in John 14:3, we are only given the idea that He will come again. There's no way to discern a pre-trib secret rapture from that verse unless one simply adds... it to the Scripture.

In the previous John 14:2 verse, Christ tells them He goes to prepare a place for His disciples, that in His Father's house are many mansions. The KJV word "mansions" means abodes per the Greek, and that is a direct reference to the Millennial House written of in Ezekiel 40 through 48. Per the layout of God's House in Ezekiel, the abodes of the priests are lined around the sanctuary and oblation. Christ is pointing directly to the time of His Milennial reign when speaking of those "mansions" and The Father's House, which is to be established during Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth. In other words, that's not going to be manifested until after His return and after His wrath upon the wicked, pointing once again to after the tribulation. And it's to be manifested upon the earth, which is where Rev.5:10 says His elect kings and priests will rule with Him from.

Likewise with the Rev.19:7-9 Scripture, there is no specific timing of a pre-trib "secret rapture" given within that. John is given a vision of many people in Heaven, and it is said God "hath judged the great whore" and "hath avenged the blood of His servants". That's a past tense pointer to after God's wrath and judgment upon the great whore Babylon. So the vision is pointing to AFTER Christ's judgment for this world, and after His second coming. That's why those many people are seen in Heaven, because that past tense points to the end of this world already being over, and Christ's coming and gathering of His saints already having happenned too. That's why those are seen in Heaven with Him at the first part of the Rev.19 chapter. But at Rev.19:11, the subject changes to Christ's coming on a white horse for war, to defeat the kings and mighty men of the earth, covering back to the time of His wrath upon the wicked just prior to His avenging of His servants.

When one feels the need to rearrange John's chronology, or just not pay any attention to it, one could have Jesus coming anytime. But it is a fact that John does not show Jesus on the white horse returning to earth, until AFTER the wedding in heaven. But, it seems Veteran can rearrange according to his theory, instead of forming his theory from John's chronology.

How amazing that chapter 19 starts with the phrase, "And after these things," which John uses frequently or one similar to show us that he is being chronological. But after WHAT things? Of course, after the 7th vial and world wide earthquake that shakes the islands back into the ocean, and the mountains back into the earth. This is AFTER the destruction of every city on earth, including the great whore, Babylon. But, it is NOT before Jesus' return on the white horse. Speaking of horses, it is good that we don't still live in the age of horses and carts, for with Veteran's propensity to rearrange, he would always have the cart before the horse. What it does say, is "he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication." Why would anyone think that this is some time later, after Jesus has returned, when John shows him on the horse returning to earth AFTER this?

Next, John writes, "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." What can we make of this? Why not just what it says, the TIME HAS COME for the wedding. Then the wedding supper. Then, and only then, does John show Jesus on the white horse, heading for the battle of Armageddon.

Romans 5:9
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

What we see is that from Paul's perspective, the wrath was "to come." In verse 9, we have no appoinment with wrath, but instead "to obtain salvation." This is just a FEW VERSES AFTER the famous rapture verses of 1 Thes. 4:17. Therefore it is HIGHLY LIKELY that the salvation Paul is mentioning is the rapture of the previous verses. Paul makes it clear that "they" get the sudden destrucion, while "we" and "us" get salvation. Where do we first find the word wrath in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal. And where does John show us the great crowd, too large to number, in heaven? Right AFTER the 6th seal event. So Paul and John together make it quite clear that "they" get the sudden destruction of the world wide earthquake, while WE, the church, get raptured. And this is BEFORE John even begins the 70th week.

There you have it, readers: two totally different views of the rapture and the chronology of Revelation.

Coop

 

[adam332]

Coop,
regarding the OT prophecies of the regathering of Israel in endtimes. How and where do you think it fits in your time line? Thanks.

 

[veteran]

When one feels the need to rearrange John's chronology, or just not pay any attention to it, one could have Jesus coming anytime. But it is a fact that John does not show Jesus on the white horse returning to earth, until AFTER the wedding in heaven. But, it seems Veteran can rearrange according to his theory, instead of forming his theory from John's chronology.

The grammatical tense of Christ's judgments is what gives the time of their appearance in heaven.

Rev 19:2
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
(KJV)

Coop simply doesn't want to heed the past tense of the grammer there. John is shown Christ's judgments upon the great whore and the avenging of His servants is past at that point. That's why these appear in heaven at that point, because the tense shows they are with Christ AFTER His judgments upon the great whore and wicked. This shows Coop doesn't know how grammar works, or he simply denies the tense of those passages on purpose in favor of believing a lie (pre-trib "secret rapture"). I believe it's the latter case.

How amazing that chapter 19 starts with the phrase, "And after these things," which John uses frequently or one similar to show us that he is being chronological.

That's one of Coop's problems with discerning the times of prophecy. He treats Scripture the way secularists do when studying a subject, thinking everything should follow in progressive order, EXCEPT where he wishes to change it to fit a pre-trib view, like moving the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe events of Christ's return to the middle of the tribulation as he's done on other threads.

Next, John writes, "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." What can we make of this? Why not just what it says, the TIME HAS COME for the wedding. Then the wedding supper. Then, and only then, does John show Jesus on the white horse, heading for the battle of Armageddon.

Coop can't understand that those John sees in heaven is only AFTER Christ has already judged the great whore and avenged the blood of His saints. Nor can he understand that John is shown another vision starting at Rev.19:11 and AFTER he had spoken with the angel.

Rev 19:10-11
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He That sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
(KJV)

John is seeing another vision starting at verse 11. It's about Christ's actual coming on a white horse to defeat the great whore and enemies of God, to avenge His servants. That's what that "war" is about, and it happens prior to the gathering of His saints. Thus the first vision John saw of much people in heaven is not chronological with the second vision of Christ coming on a white horse.

Zechariah 14 also confirms this, with Christ's feet first touching down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem to cause a great earthquake and cleaving in two of that mount, forming a great valley there which is where we then flee to on the last trump. That great earthquake and splitting of the Mount of Olives is this "war" that happens at Christ's coming on the white horse. The "war" to defeat His enemies happens there at Jerusalem first, then our gathering to Christ, in that order. Pre-trib theorists have forgotten to study the OT prophecy of just 'where' it is that those in Christ still alive on earth are gathered to be with Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:9
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,[/color]

What we see is that from Paul's perspective, the wrath was "to come." In verse 9, we have no appoinment with wrath, but instead "to obtain salvation." This is just a FEW VERSES AFTER the famous rapture verses of 1 Thes. 4:17. Therefore it is HIGHLY LIKELY that the salvation Paul is mentioning is the rapture of the previous verses. Paul makes it clear that "they" get the sudden destrucion, while "we" and "us" get salvation. Where do we first find the word wrath in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal. And where does John show us the great crowd, too large to number, in heaven? Right AFTER the 6th seal event. So Paul and John together make it quite clear that "they" get the sudden destruction of the world wide earthquake, while WE, the church, get raptured. And this is BEFORE John even begins the 70th week.

Of course God's cup of wrath was yet "to come" in Paul's days. But those verses do not say just 'when' His wrath was to come. And THAT'S WHY those verses cannot be used for support of a Pre-Trib "secret rapture".

In Rev.6 on the 6th seal, a great earthquake happens, and heaven is rolled up like a scroll, and the time of wrath upon the wicked comes. That's the time of the "war" with Christ's coming on a white horse of Rev.19:11 forward to defeat His enemies. It's also the very end of the 2nd woe and start of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe per Rev.11. The saints shown in heaven given white robes is about the 5th seal, not the 6th seal; and they are told to REST for a little season, until their brethren and fellowservants still on earth are killed as they were, which is about their Testimony for Christ Jesus DURING THE TRIBULATION (Matt.10:21; Rev.7:14; Rev.13:15; Rev.20:4; Rev.12:17). The 5th seal shows the tribulation is still going on until the 6th seal. Maybe Coop has gotten mixed up, and thought he was talking about the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward which also came out of great tribulation, having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb? All these Scripture evidences are NOT looking good for a Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory at all.

 

[precepts]

So silly, so simple, it's the 'wheat and tares' parable that happens. The earth will be reaped, the good into the barn which is the new Jerusalem, and the bad into the lake of fire (tares).

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[precepts]

It's undeniable that it's the "wheat and tares" parable because in the 1st heavenly ressurection only the righteous are ressurected and reign with Christ the 1,000yrs. The 2nd heavenly ressurection is the "great white throne" judgements where the bad and the good will rise, the good that died on earth between the time after the 1st ressurection to the end of the 1,000yrs, and all the bad to that time.


Obviously the 2nd ressurection where the good and bad are judged after the 1,000yrs:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And the 3rd ressurection is distinquishable from the others because the dead righteous rises 1st and are carried into the new Jerusalem (the barn), there's no throne judgement, the earth is reaped.

 

[precepts]

To prove that the first 2 ressurections happen in heaven:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

This parallels Revelations account of Christ being brought before the Ancient of Days and the slaying of the false prophet, the 11th horn, the 2nd beast of Revelation.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

On the earth means the garden of Eden where the "tree of life" is, the heavenly Jerusalem, and the heavenly temple.

 

[lecoop]

Coop,
regarding the OT prophecies of the regathering of Israel in endtimes. How and where do you think it fits in your time line? Thanks.

There are no verses that pin it down exactly. But I think it will happen the day Jesus returns to earth. However, it may be a day or two later, for He will certainly be busy the first day. But, in reality, Armegeddon will only take Him a few seconds. So, maybe there will be plenty of time.

Many on different forums have written that all they have to do is count 1260 days from the abomination to know what day Jesus returns. But again, I cannot find that either in scripture. God does give us two words: "Immediately after" the tribulation of those days the signs will appear. How many days will they be seen before He returns? I certainly don't know. Immediately tells us it will not be delayed long, but after tells us it will definitely be after. However, "those days" of great tribulation will be shortened, and will not last the full 42 months of the Beast's authority. So perhaps He could come on the 1260th day. But since He said that no man would know the day, I doubt it.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

When one feels the need to rearrange John's chronology, or just not pay any attention to it, one could have Jesus coming anytime. But it is a fact that John does not show Jesus on the white horse returning to earth, until AFTER the wedding in heaven. But, it seems Veteran can rearrange according to his theory, instead of forming his theory from John's chronology.

The grammatical tense of Christ's judgments is what gives the time of their appearance in heaven.

Rev 19:2
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
(KJV)

Coop simply doesn't want to heed the past tense of the grammer there. John is shown Christ's judgments upon the great whore and the avenging of His servants is past at that point. That's why these appear in heaven at that point, because the tense shows they are with Christ AFTER His judgments upon the great whore and wicked. This shows Coop doesn't know how grammar works, or he simply denies the tense of those passages on purpose in favor of believing a lie (pre-trib "secret rapture"). I believe it's the latter case.

It is a simple fact that MOST of what John wrote is in the past tense iin the KJV, even speaking of events that are still in our future. It is also a simple fact that John wrote this AFTER He saw the destruction of of the great whore Babylon, and the destruction of all the cities of the world, at the 7th vial. However, EVERYTHING that has been accomplished during the vials, has been done with Jesus still in heaven. At the beginning of chapter 19 He is still in heaven. Let's look:

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

So WHO are these great many people? Well, to start out, it is the great crowd, too large to number, as seen in chapter 7. That is the church, seen right after the rapture. Then the 144,000 will be there, as they are raptured shortly after the midpoint of the week. So at this time there are a huge number of people already in heaven.

The verbs in question are "krin?" translated "he hath judged," and "ekdike?" translated "hath avenged."
Both of these verbs are Greek aorist tense which in reality show NO TIMING AT ALL. They simply do not have any information about timing in them. We cannot therefore go by the tense of these verbs, but MUST go by the context. The context is that this is AFTER the 7th vial has destroyed the cities of the world, and after the vials of God's wrath. Those in heaven have a perfect right to say that He has judged the great whore, and avenged his servants.

Therefore, it is very plain that Veteran is reading into these verses things that are simply not there. All John is telling us is - this is AFTER the 7th vial and all the vials. And reading ahead tells us that it is BEFORE Jesus returns to earth. After all, He has a wedding to attend, IN HEAVEN.

How amazing that chapter 19 starts with the phrase, "And after these things," which John uses frequently or one similar to show us that he is being chronological.

That's one of Coop's problems with discerning the times of prophecy. He treats Scripture the way secularists do when studying a subject, thinking everything should follow in progressive order, EXCEPT where he wishes to change it to fit a pre-trib view, like moving the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe events of Christ's return to the middle of the tribulation as he's done on other threads.

It appears that Veteran will never understand that it is HE that has moved the 7th trumpet to the END of the week, when John put it as the marker for the MIDDLE of the week. After all, John did put it in chapter 11, just before the woman flees into the wilderness. That is right where it should be. It is a simple fact, John DID write things in a very chronological manner. Again, Veteran wants to ADD to scripture, and find Jesus coming (actually found in Rev 19) back to the 7th trumpet - when there is simply NOTHING written there that tells us of His coming.

Next, John writes, "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." What can we make of this? Why not just what it says, the TIME HAS COME for the wedding. Then the wedding supper. Then, and only then, does John show Jesus on the white horse, heading for the battle of Armageddon.

Coop can't understand that those John sees in heaven is only AFTER Christ has already judged the great whore and avenged the blood of His saints. Nor can he understand that John is shown another vision starting at Rev.19:11 and AFTER he had spoken with the angel.

Of course God has judged the great whore, WITH THE VIALS OF HIS WRATH. Sorry Veteran, but they did not require either the Father's presense or Jesus' presense on earth. All the vials are done while the Father and Jesus remain in heaven. You did read that they are done with and by angels?

I don't know if Rev 19:11 starts another vision of a continuation of the same vision. But it does not matter, because John wrote of Jesus on the white horse AFTER He wrote of the wedding. And really, for the readers, what sense would it make for Jesus to MISS His own wedding? Of course He will not. There is simply NO REASON to rearrange what John wrote, for it is all in the proper place as it is.

Rev 19:10-11
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He That sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
(KJV)

John is seeing another vision starting at verse 11. It's about Christ's actual coming on a white horse to defeat the great whore and enemies of God, to avenge His servants. That's what that "war" is about, and it happens prior to the gathering of His saints. Thus the first vision John saw of much people in heaven is not chronological with the second vision of Christ coming on a white horse.

Zechariah 14 also confirms this, with Christ's feet first touching down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem to cause a great earthquake and cleaving in two of that mount, forming a great valley there which is where we then flee to on the last trump. That great earthquake and splitting of the Mount of Olives is this "war" that happens at Christ's coming on the white horse. The "war" to defeat His enemies happens there at Jerusalem first, then our gathering to Christ, in that order. Pre-trib theorists have forgotten to study the OT prophecy of just 'where' it is that those in Christ still alive on earth are gathered to be with Christ Jesus.

It seems that Veteran MUST rearrange. I will never understand his great need to rearrange what is already in perfect order. Sorry Veteran, but the great whore is ALREADY DEFEATED before Jesus is seen on the white horse. He is coming for the battle of Armageddon. And sorry again, but WE come back WITH HIM on white horses. So WE will NOT be fleeing. We already will be in resurrection bodies and will have NO NEED to flee. Therefore, most of what Veteran adds to chapter 19, is MYTH.

Becauase Veteran has missed the rapture as seen in chapter 7, everthing else he understands from that time on will be flawed. And John wrote of the 7th trump, in chapter 11, because it sounds at the MIDPOINT, not at the end.

In Rev.6 on the 6th seal, a great earthquake happens, and heaven is rolled up like a scroll, and the time of wrath upon the wicked comes. That's the time of the "war" with Christ's coming on a white horse of Rev.19:11 forward to defeat His enemies. It's also the very end of the 2nd woe and start of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe per Rev.11. The saints shown in heaven given white robes is about the 5th seal, not the 6th seal; and they are told to REST for a little season, until their brethren and fellowservants still on earth are killed as they were, which is about their Testimony for Christ Jesus DURING THE TRIBULATION (Matt.10:21; Rev.7:14; Rev.13:15; Rev.20:4; Rev.12:17). The 5th seal shows the tribulation is still going on until the 6th seal. Maybe Coop has gotten mixed up, and thought he was talking about the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward which also came out of great tribulation, having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb? All these Scripture evidences are NOT looking good for a Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory at all.

For the readers, do you see the rearranging? Now Veteran wants to move chapter 19 back to chapter 6! How silly is that? No no, Veteran! The 6th seal is the SIGNS that the day of the Lord and 70th week are about to begin - that is to say the BEGINNING of God's wrath. The 6th seal is also the time of the rapture of the church, so we ESCAPE - because we have no appointment with His wrath. John sees the raptured church at the throne in heaven, in chapter 7.

Veteran misses it again with the 5th seal martyrs. They are CHURCH AGE martyrs. And they are told they must wait until the last one is martyred. So what would make the last martyr of the church age? Of course, the END of the church age. What comes next after the 5th seal? Of course the 6th seal, where the church age ENDS at the rapture. For the readers, do you see that it is in perfect order and needs no rearranging? We are taken OUT and the 144,000 are sealed, BEFORE the Day of the Lord and the 70th week begins.

For the readers: there you have it. One theory must rearrange half the book, or more. The other theory says that any rearranging is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Scripture in God's Word often jumps back and forth between past, present, and future tense. Our Lord's Book of Revelation is no exception.

Revelation's prophetic style is more aligned to how God gave His Old Testament prophets to write down His Word. That's why so many who don't study the Old Testament prophets see such a difference of how Revelation was written compared with the rest of the New Testament Books.

Here's an OT example written in the same fashion as the Rev.19 chapter, with a future view given first, and then a move back to a time just prior...

Isa 2:1-13
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

What time is the above Scripture pointing to folks? It says "in the last days", with people saying let's go up to the mountain of The LORD, to His house, to Zion in Jerusalem. In that time He is judging among the nations, rebuking them, meaning His direct reign, people not learning or doing war anymore, etc. It's Millennium timing with Christ's reign with a rod of iron with His elect priests and kings, with God's House of Ezekiel 40 forward present at Jerusalem. That prophecy is still FUTURE even to us today, simply because those events have not come on the earth yet.


Now note what timing the next verses in that same Isaiah chapter move to...

6 Therefore thou hast forsaken Thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:
8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
(KJV)

With the very next Isaiah verse, God moves the subject timeline back to a point just prior to the day of The LORD. He gives reasons why He is going to bring that day to end this present world.


Rev.19 does the same thing. The first vision John saw was of much people already in heaven, Salvation timing. In Rev.19:3 they are even saying Alleluia at the smoke that is rising up that results from Christ's judgment upon the great whore. That's clearly past Christ's coming, showing He had already acted against the great whore, defeated her, battle over.

But at Rev.19:11, the time moves back to a view just prior to Christ's judgment of the great whore. That next vision John sees is Christ's actual coming with His angels to bring that judgment and defeat upon the great whore and those with her. The battle is just getting ready to happen in that timing.

---------------------------

This is why we MUST pay attention to the events given in prophecy, what they are actually revealing which is how we rightly divide their timelines. This is what Apostle Paul meant when he admonished Timothy and us to study to become a workman, rightly dividing God's Word (2 Tim.2:15).

 

[lecoop]

Scripture in God's Word often jumps back and forth between past, present, and future tense. Our Lord's Book of Revelation is no exception.

Revelation's prophetic style is more aligned to how God gave His Old Testament prophets to write down His Word. That's why so many who don't study the Old Testament prophets see such a difference of how Revelation was written compared with the rest of the New Testament Books.

Here's an OT example written in the same fashion as the Rev.19 chapter, with a future view given first, and then a move back to a time just prior...

Isa 2:1-13
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

What time is the above Scripture pointing to folks? It says "in the last days", with people saying let's go up to the mountain of The LORD, to His house, to Zion in Jerusalem. In that time He is judging among the nations, rebuking them, meaning His direct reign, people not learning or doing war anymore, etc. It's Millennium timing with Christ's reign with a rod of iron with His elect priests and kings, with God's House of Ezekiel 40 forward present at Jerusalem. That prophecy is still FUTURE even to us today, simply because those events have not come on the earth yet.


Now note what timing the next verses in that same Isaiah chapter move to...

6 Therefore thou hast forsaken Thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:
8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
(KJV)

With the very next Isaiah verse, God moves the subject timeline back to a point just prior to the day of The LORD. He gives reasons why He is going to bring that day to end this present world.


Rev.19 does the same thing. The first vision John saw was of much people already in heaven, Salvation timing. In Rev.19:3 they are even saying Alleluia at the smoke that is rising up that results from Christ's judgment upon the great whore. That's clearly past Christ's coming, showing He had already acted against the great whore, defeated her, battle over.

But at Rev.19:11, the time moves back to a view just prior to Christ's judgment of the great whore. That next vision John sees is Christ's actual coming with His angels to bring that judgment and defeat upon the great whore and those with her. The battle is just getting ready to happen in that timing.

---------------------------

This is why we MUST pay attention to the events given in prophecy, what they are actually revealing which is how we rightly divide their timelines. This is what Apostle Paul meant when he admonished Timothy and us to study to become a workman, rightly dividing God's Word (2 Tim.2:15).

For the readers:
This is a theory. It seems everyone that reads Revelation has a theory. It is easy to see what Veteran has pointed out in Isaiah; and indeed, that was common in Old Testament prophecies. However, Revelation is a different book written at a much later time. And what Veteran wants us to see in Revelation 19 is simply NOT THERE. John does NOT fly all over the place, so to speak, when it comes to his chronology. How many times does he used numbers to show us that he is very chronological? He numbers the seals, the trumpets, the woes, the vials, and the thunders - although he does not tell us what each thunder is about. Does Isaiah, or Ezekiel or Zechariah or others number their events as John did? If so please find them, for I have not. Revelation is a very unique book. There is none other like it. It is only a mistaken theory that Revelation must be like the Old Testament prophecies. It is not.

WHO is in heaven in Rev. 19:1?

Rev 5
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

First, we see that there are hundreds of thousands of angels.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Here we see the martyrs of the church age. They are in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

All saints that have died are in heaven at this time; Old Testament saints and New Testament saints.

Rev. 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Here we see the raptured church in heaven, at the throne.

Rev 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Now we see, added to the church are the 144,000 firstfruits. They have been raptured to heaven.

Therefore, when John gets to chapter 19, is there any lack of people in heaven? In fact, there is TOO MANY to count! Does not John confirm this?

Rev 19
Revelation 19
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Please note, readers, one does not have to rearrange the book, to come to this conclusion; just follow along with John's chronology.

2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore...

Is this past tense? Had the whore been judged?

Rev 16
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev. 18
15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Does this sound past tense?

Therefore, by 19:1, the whore HAS BEEN destroyed and those in heaven cry out "he hath judged the great whore."

So there is no need to rearrange the book or the order of the book. John has it right: by the time of Rev 19:1, the 7th vial has destroyed all the cities of the world. End of story. And God did it while He was still in heaven. AFTER the marriage, Jesus will finally return to earth to face the battle of Armageddon.

Coop

 

[veteran]

The Rev.19:1-10 Scripture is very clear at what time much people are in heaven, it's AFTER Christ's coming and judgment upon the great whore, even with the smoke of her defeat rising and the people saying Alleluia when seeing the smoke rise.

But the Pre-trib "secret rapture" teaches even beginning after Rev.4 the Church is raptured and no more mentioned until that Rev.19 chapter. It's dangerous to pull out only verses one wants to use in support of an idea while discarding other verses that go with it which give a different picture to the whole.

Rev 5:10
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

Note a condition about the redeemed mentioned in Rev.5. What timing is that "hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth"? Rev.20:6 answers that...

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(KJV)

IT"S MILLENNIUM TIMING! For that's when Christ's elect will reign on earth as kings and priests, and not before. Those Rev.5 Scriptures are a FUTURE VIEW after Christ's coming, after the resurrection, and at the start of His thousand years reign. It is NOT the result of a Pre-trib "secret rapture".

With the Rev.6 example on the 5th seal, notice there's more verses that go with that particular seal than what Coop quoted. Again, anyone can push wild doctrines just by leaving out verses that give more info on a matter...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Verse 9 is what Coop quoted; but what about the other two verses that go with that? Notice verse 11, where those killed are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren should be killed as they were. It would be crazy to appy that to a Pre-trib "secret rapture" now wouldn't it? Those are the saints that sleep in Jesus being shown under the altar. Eccl.12 shows that after flesh death our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That's why they're "souls" are there, for they were killed, not raptured. 2 Cor.5 Paul reveals the same thing Eccl.12 does of what happens after flesh death. The point still is, there's no evidence of a pre-trib rapture on that 5th seal, for those saints were KILLED.


With the Rev.7:9 example, let's see what other verses there Coop's pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine causes him to omit...

Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)

That great multitude John saw standing before Christ's Throne came out of great tribulation and washed their robes, made them white in the Blood of The Lamb. And therefore, that's why they are before the throne of God. The reason they are before the throne is because they washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb, having overcome through Christ. That's how they came out of great tribulation, by making a stand for Christ through it, and not by seeking to escape the tribulation like the false pre-trib "secret rapture" teaches. Then we're given a picture of Milennium time events with that "living fountains of waters" with no more tears and no more hunger. That whole section from Rev.7:9 forward is Milennium timing after Christ's coming to gather His elect and they begin to reign with HIm and directly serve Him and are before His Throne. Ezekiel 44 gives more detail on that future event. So once again, a lot more is given along with that Rev.7:9 verse which paints a much different picture than a secret rapture.


The 144,000 of Rev.14 is not that difficult either. All one need do is keep reading and note what is said in Rev.15 with these...

Rev 15:2-3
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
(KJV)

Notice those came out of tribulation becuse they had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, etc. That's why they sing the song of Moses and the song of The Lamb Jesus Christ. Got another picture of those in Rev.20:4 about those who had gotten the victory over the beast and his mark. They're shown reiging with Christ as kings after His coming and start of the Milennium. So how is that about a pre-tribulational secret rapture? It isn't, not even close. Afterall, with those in Rev.14 the Scripture does say they were "redeemed from the earth" which points to a specific time after Christ gathers all His saints. The rewards by Christ are not handed out until after His coming to defeat His enemies of this world.


Did anyone notice how Coop left out the end of Rev.19:2 in his post above? He also left out that Rev.19:3 verse about the smoke of the great whore's defeat rising up for ever too.

Rev 19:1-3
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
(KJV)

It doesn't take much common sense to know those verses are after the fact of Christ's defeat of the great whore. Afterall, will the great whore live again out of that smoke that rises there showing her defeat? The timing of that is clear; it's after Christ's coming to defeat the great whore, and after His gathering of the His saints. Definitely pointer to after the tribulation. No pre-trib secret rapture evidence in that at all, just as there is none in the previous examples either.

There's nothing to prove a pre-trib rapture with Coop's later quotes of Rev.16 and 18 either. On the 6th vial of Rev.16, the Euphrates river is dried up in prep for the battle of Armageddon on the 7th vial, which is when Christ comes to defeat His enemies on earth, which is the same timing of Rev.19:11 forward with His coming on a white horse with a sword out of His mouth that cuts both ways.

 

[lecoop]

The Rev.19:1-10 Scripture is very clear at what time much people are in heaven, it's AFTER Christ's coming and judgment upon the great whore, even with the smoke of her defeat rising and the people saying Alleluia when seeing the smoke rise.

This is a theory that comes only from Veteran's imagination: there is NO verses that show Christ has already come; NONE. There are verses later in chapter 19, that show WHEN Jesus comes; AFTER the marriage. Did Jesus have to have come to earth, to effect any of the trumpet judgements? How about trumpet 6 that kills 1/3 of the earth's population? No, Jesus did not have to come to earth for that: it was all done while He was in heaven. Jesus did not have to come to earth for the great earthquake of the 6th seal either. Why then does Veteran insist that Jesus had to come for the 7th vial that destroyed not only Babylon but ALL the cities of the world?

But the Pre-trib "secret rapture" teaches even beginning after Rev.4 the Church is raptured and no more mentioned until that Rev.19 chapter. It's dangerous to pull out only verses one wants to use in support of an idea while discarding other verses that go with it which give a different picture to the whole.

Praise God Forever!! Finally Veteran has written something I can agree with! It is VERY poor exegesis to make Rev. 4:1 be the rapture. Truthfully, it is NOT. Not one beginning reader in 100 or 1000 would EVER come up with that idea. The rapture in 4:1 is just as wild as many of Veteran's ideas. Rev. 4:1 was JOHN being called up to heaven. Plain and simple.

Rev 5:10
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

Note a condition about the redeemed mentioned in Rev.5. What timing is that "hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth"? Rev.20:6 answers that...
Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(KJV)

IT"S MILLENNIUM TIMING! For that's when Christ's elect will reign on earth as kings and priests, and not before. Those Rev.5 Scriptures are a FUTURE VIEW after Christ's coming, after the resurrection, and at the start of His thousand years reign. It is NOT the result of a Pre-trib "secret rapture".

No no no. Quote the entire verse:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We were made kings and priests at the same time we were redeemed to God, when Jesus was slain. The "shall reign" is future tense, because it is in the Millennium that we shall reign. This verse has nothing to do with the rapture. In fact, it is before the rapture. What is the correct timing of this verse? It is when Christ FIRST ascended into heaven, right after telling Mary Magdalene not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. So it was about 33 AD when the 24 elders sang this song. Again, this has nothing to do with any rapture. It is only a strawman argument.

With the Rev.6 example on the 5th seal, notice there's more verses that go with that particular seal than what Coop quoted. Again, anyone can push wild doctrines just by leaving out verses that give more info on a matter...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Verse 9 is what Coop quoted; but what about the other two verses that go with that? Notice verse 11, where those killed are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren should be killed as they were. It would be crazy to appy that to a Pre-trib "secret rapture" now wouldn't it? Those are the saints that sleep in Jesus being shown under the altar. Eccl.12 shows that after flesh death our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That's why they're "souls" are there, for they were killed, not raptured. 2 Cor.5 Paul reveals the same thing Eccl.12 does of what happens after flesh death. The point still is, there's no evidence of a pre-trib rapture on that 5th seal, for those saints were KILLED.

This is one more strawman argument. The rapture has not happened in John's narrative at this time. Veteran has not real clue of John's chronology. God shows John a "history lesson" in chapters 4 and 5; and glimpse into the throne room of John's past, to a time BEFORE Jesus had risen from the dead - or even before He was nailed to the cross. Then God allowed John to see, in this vision, the very moment that Jesus ascended, around 33 AD. So the first seal timing is made very clear by John - it is moments after Jesus ascended into heaven, in 33 AD. The first five seals were broken very shortly after Jesus ascended into heaven. It is ONLY at the 5th seal where we are told that there will be a long wait for the next. They have to wait until the last church age martyr. In fact, if Veteran only understood, HERE is the first clue as to the timing of the rapture. What will make the last martyr of the church age? Of course, the END of the church age. That will be when God decides that the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. What is the next major event shown AFTER the 5th seal? Of course, it is the 6th seal. It is the 6th seal that Paul is speaking of when he writes "sudden destruction." No one will suspect a world wide earthquake. It comes suddenly, exactly as a thief on the night - UNEXPECTED.

What does Matthew tell us of an earthquake associated with a resurrection?

Matt 27:51-52 "The earth did quake.....and the graves were opened.

Did you catch that? Matthew goes on to say, "and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

This was a resurrection of people that had been dead for many thousands of years. And what did their resurrection cause? A mighty earthquake.

Can we expect a mighy earthquake - a WORLDWIDE earthquake - at the resurrection of the church? Many of them will have been dead for almost 2000 years. Their atoms will be scattered far and wide. So when God instantly brings those atoms back together to form the body that once existed, it will cause a mighty earthquake - a worldwide earthquake, because the church age saints have died around the world.

What do we read at the 6th seal? Of course, the FIRST world wide earthquake. Friends, THIS IS THE DEAD IN CHRIST being resurrected. It is the first half of the rapture of the church. And it takes place at the 6th seal, NOT in Rev 4:1. The church is then seen in heaven, just a few verses later, in chapter 7.

Coop
to be continued

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote:

With the Rev.7:9 example, let's see what other verses there Coop's pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine causes him to omit...

Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)

That great multitude John saw standing before Christ's Throne came out of great tribulation and washed their robes, made them white in the Blood of The Lamb. And therefore, that's why they are before the throne of God. The reason they are before the throne is because they washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb, having overcome through Christ. That's how they came out of great tribulation, by making a stand for Christ through it, and not by seeking to escape the tribulation like the false pre-trib "secret rapture" teaches. Then we're given a picture of Milennium time events with that "living fountains of waters" with no more tears and no more hunger. That whole section from Rev.7:9 forward is Milennium timing after Christ's coming to gather His elect and they begin to reign with HIm and directly serve Him and are before His Throne. Ezekiel 44 gives more detail on that future event. So once again, a lot more is given along with that Rev.7:9 verse which paints a much different picture than a secret rapture.

I don't omit anything that changes the picture. But to keep things short, I only include what is necessary.
First, WHERE ARE THEY when John sees them?

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Answer: they are in heaven, where John is. They are before the throne, and IN THE PRESENSE of Jesus Christ the Lamb. Now, what does Paul tell us?

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

From the moment of the rapture will will ever be with Him. Where do we go at the rapture, after being caught up into the air?

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

A beginning reader could understand this! We go to where Christ is: at the throne in heaven, and to the mansions He has prepared for us. This is not rocket science: if we just read what is written, without preconceived glasses, it is plain and simple. John saw the great crowd too large to number, around the throne, because that is exactly where we are to go.

Every member of the true church have made their robes white by the blood of the Lamb. Please note, there is not even ONE hint that these have died or been martyred. Therefore there is NO REASON to assume that they have been martyred. No, the truth is, they have been raptured.

Now, what about the two words, "great tribulation?" So many have been brainwashed by continually hearing and assume that Jesus put that title on the last half of the 70th week. But that is a myth. In the first place, those two words, "great tribulation," were simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH for Jesus to describe those days, so He had to add that never before and never after would there ever be such days. Next, Jesus mentioned those two words together, "great tribulation" in speaking to one of the churches that John was to send the book to, back in 95 AD. Of course God knew that those people would not live 2000 years to be alive today! No, what Jesus meant there, is that He could created "great tribulation" for anyone any time He chose to. If they did not repent back in 95 AD, He certainly could have given them "great tribulation" back then.

Next, what makes "tribulation" great? Could it get any greater than one being put to death for their testimony? No, no one can be killed TWICE. So if people are dying for their stand on Jesus Christ, they were in "great tribulation. Please take note: today in almost all Muslim nations, Christians are being killed for thier testimony! So right now, today, there is great tribulation for Christians living in Muslim nations.

Finally, John has not yet started the day of the Lord, OR the 70th week in His narrative. Therefore, it would be EXTREMELY strange for these to have come OUT of something that has not yet begun.

Therefore, the conclusion is this: all John is telling us is that at the time of the 6th seal, there will be people dying for their stand on Jesus Christ, around the world. To tell you the truth, we are not far from those days here in the US today, and we are FAST moving in that direction. It is great tribulation right now in half the world.

There should be NO DOUBT then, that this great crowd, is indeed, the raptured church. Don't let those two words throw you off. This geat crowd NEVER SAW THE BEAST. It is about 3 1/2 years before the Beast will be revealed. We are the restraining force that PREVENTS the Beast from being revealed; but after we are "taken out of the way," via rapture, THEN the beast can be revealed. Paul has explained these things to us.

The 144,000 of Rev.14 is not that difficult either. All one need do is keep reading and note what is said in Rev.15 with these...

Rev 15:2-3
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
(KJV)

Notice those came out of tribulation becuse they had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, etc. That's why they sing the song of Moses and the song of The Lamb Jesus Christ. Got another picture of those in Rev.20:4 about those who had gotten the victory over the beast and his mark. They're shown reiging with Christ as kings after His coming and start of the Milennium. So how is that about a pre-tribulational secret rapture? It isn't, not even close. Afterall, with those in Rev.14 the Scripture does say they were "redeemed from the earth" which points to a specific time after Christ gathers all His saints. The rewards by Christ are not handed out until after His coming to defeat His enemies of this world.

Did anyone notice how Veteran attempts to put two verses together, as if they are related, WHEN THEY ARE NOT AT ALL RELATED? The 144,000 were RAPTURED into heaven, BEFORE "those days" of "great tribulation." Again, Veteran wants to REARRANGE to fit his theory, instead of establishing his theorys on what is written. WHERE ARE the 144,000 in chapter 14? One verse makes this clear:

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

HOW did they (the 144,000) get before the throne? It should be obvious that they were raptured. If one thinks they were martyred, they don't understand John's Chronology. In chapter 14, "those days" of "great tribulation" have not yet begun, or BARELY begun. It is right after the midpoint of the week. One of the three angels will warn every living human NOT to take the mark. OF COURSE this warning will come BEFORE the mark is set up. They were raptured because they are "firstfruits," meaning they get there FIRST. They are raptured very near the MIDPOINT of the week, NOT at the end. Veteran is up to rearranging again. Therefore, those in 15:2-3 are a DIFFERENT GROUP.

Now, where is JOhn in his narrative in chapter 15?

Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

By this time those days of great tribulation will have gotten intense, and it is time for God to start pouring out the vials of His wrath. So at this time, people are being beheaded at an alarming rate.

HOW did these get victory over the beast? It is not explicity stated, but it is without much doubt that these are martyrs of the Beast.

Did anyone notice how Coop left out the end of Rev.19:2 in his post above? He also left out that Rev.19:3 verse about the smoke of the great whore's defeat rising up for ever too.

Rev 19:1-3
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
(KJV)

It doesn't take much common sense to know those verses are after the fact of Christ's defeat of the great whore. Afterall, will the great whore live again out of that smoke that rises there showing her defeat? The timing of that is clear; it's after Christ's coming to defeat the great whore, and after His gathering of the His saints. Definitely pointer to after the tribulation. No pre-trib secret rapture evidence in that at all, just as there is none in the previous examples either.

OF COURSE it is after the great whore has been judged. We read of that judement in great detail in chapter 18. By chapter 19, it is a done deal, history, over with. And it was done BEFORE Jesus got on the white horse to descend to earth. Again, more rearranging. John shows the coming AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem, the Great Whore. The destruction is done first by the great earthquake at the 7th vial, then by the 10 nations that join with the beast for one hour. And still, this is BEFORE Jesus returns. Yes, CERTAINLY after the "tribulation" or 70th week, for that ended at the 7th vial. And certainly AFTER the rapture which happened at the 6th seal.

There's nothing to prove a pre-trib rapture with Coop's later quotes of Rev.16 and 18 either. On the 6th vial of Rev.16, the Euphrates river is dried up in prep for the battle of Armageddon on the 7th vial, which is when Christ comes to defeat His enemies on earth, which is the same timing of Rev.19:11 forward with His coming on a white horse with a sword out of His mouth that cuts both ways.

I was really not trying to prove a pretrib rapture - only that Veteran's take on Rev. 19 was WRONG.
The rapture will take place at the sudden destruction of the world wide earthquake at the 6th seal. No amount of rearranging Revelation will change that. We, the church, will be a part of that great crowd shown in Rev. 19: 1 and 6.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Evidently Coop has forgotten about those of Rev.14 that sing a new song being the 144,000.

Rev 14:1-3
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(KJV)

And these are also those of Rev.15 that are before God's throne that had gotten victory over the beast, over his mark, over his image, and over the number of his name, meaning - they went through the tribulation. Rev.20:4 is another look at these 144,000 that reign with Christ during the thousand years. That's the same picture back at Rev.7:9 forward too about the great multitude that came out of great tribulation having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb, making them white. John being asked where those came from in the Rev.7 chapter is an essential part of Christ's Message there, especially since it gives the 'timing' they appear before His Throne being after they had come out of great tribulation. No secret rapture there at all. Nor is that a mid-trib rapture either.

The 1 Thess.4:17 verse is also a favorite single one verse charlie quote by the pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrinists. It's easy to quote just that verse by itself and then throw it in with the doctrines of men. But what about a very important verse just before it that goes with it, which again Coop failed to quote?

1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Got a different picture now with that 16th verse, even info of the timing when that is to occur. When that archangel sounds that "trump", it's the 7th trump of Revelation, the "last trump" Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about Christ's coming and the resurrection of the dead, and the saints still on earth at that moment being changed at the "twinkling of an eye" and gathered with the asleep saints He brings with Him.

Then we're supposed to remember what events occur on that "last trump" which are given in Rev.11 about the 7th angel sounding on the 3rd woe. That's when Christ's only return and our gathering happens, which is shown there to end the tribulation, the great earthquake of Zech.14 happens in Jerusalem, and Christ's wrath upon the wicked happens, and His servants are then handed out their reward, and Christ physically takes rule over all the nations. And of course all that aligns with what our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.24 that His coming would be after the tribulation upon His saints. That's not a pre-trib rapture of the saints, nor a mid-trib rapture, but after the tribulation is when Christ gathers His saints.

I've already covered the John 14 idea of "mansions" in my previous posts, which is misused as another single verse quote by the pre-trib rapture folks taken totally out of Biblical context. Here's an example of how Coop does that...

Rev 15:1-3
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
(KJV)

Does anyone see two different timings being given between those Rev.15:1 and 15:2 verses? You should, because the saints in verse 2 are shown having gotten victory over the beast, over his image, over his mark, and over the number of his name, meaning they had to go through the tribulation to do that. In other words, they were in no way raptured before the tribulation, but went through it and overcame through Christ Jesus. But what timing is the 1st verse, since it's about Christ's wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked? If you paid any attention at all to the times given back in Rev.11 on the 7th angel sounding, the 7th trumpet when Christ returns and gathers His saints, you should notice that's also when His time of wrath is poured upon the wicked...

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

The time of Christ's wrath doesn't happen until He comes to gather His saints. That's what the Rev.11:15 forward verses are showing, because it's linked with the last trumpet sounding, that same "trump" of 1 Thess.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:52 remember?

This means the Rev.15:1 verse is the time of Christ's coming on the day of The LORD, which is the same time He pours out His wrath upon the wicked and gathers His saints. But Rev.15:2 is just after that, a picture of those who went through the tribulation and had gotten (past tense) victory over the Rev.13 beast, over his image (idol setup for false worship per end of Rev.13), and over his mark (Rev.13), and over the number of his name (Rev.13).

But the Pre-trib secret rapture doctrine would have you believe that Christ comes in secret before that tribulation and raptures out a select group of saints, leaving all the rest behind on earth to go through the tribulation. That's why Coop wants to think Christ hands out His rewards to His saints early, even before the tribulation, or even while it's still going on, and are in heaven with Him even before the tribulation or while it's still going on.

Our Lord Jesus sealed His Truth that we His servants will go through the tribulation when He showed John about those of Rev.15 that had gotten victory over the beast, and the great multitude from all nations that came out of great tribulation having washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of The Lamb (Rev.7:9 forward).

 

[lecoop]

Evidently Coop has forgotten about those of Rev.14 that sing a new song being the 144,000.

Rev 14:1-3
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(KJV)

And these are also those of Rev.15 that are before God's throne that had gotten victory over the beast, over his mark, over his image, and over the number of his name, meaning - they went through the tribulation. Rev.20:4 is another look at these 144,000 that reign with Christ during the thousand years. That's the same picture back at Rev.7:9 forward too about the great multitude that came out of great tribulation having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb, making them white. John being asked where those came from in the Rev.7 chapter is an essential part of Christ's Message there, especially since it gives the 'timing' they appear before His Throne being after they had come out of great tribulation. No secret rapture there at all. Nor is that a mid-trib rapture either.

How can VEteran say I forgot? I guess he is so determined to write his theories, he does not read mine. Here is a direct quote of what I just wrote of this subject:

quote:
Did anyone notice how Veteran attempts to put two verses together, as if they are related, WHEN THEY ARE NOT AT ALL RELATED? The 144,000 were RAPTURED into heaven, BEFORE "those days" of "great tribulation." Again, Veteran wants to REARRANGE to fit his theory, instead of establishing his theorys on what is written. WHERE ARE the 144,000 in chapter 14? One verse makes this clear:

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

HOW did they (the 144,000) get before the throne? It should be obvious that they were raptured. If one thinks they were martyred, they don't understand John's Chronology. In chapter 14, "those days" of "great tribulation" have not yet begun, or BARELY begun. It is right after the midpoint of the week. One of the three angels will warn every living human NOT to take the mark. OF COURSE this warning will come BEFORE the mark is set up. They were raptured because they are "firstfruits," meaning they get there FIRST. They are raptured very near the MIDPOINT of the week, NOT at the end. Veteran is up to rearranging again. Therefore, those in 15:2-3 are a DIFFERENT GROUP.
end quote.

If Veteran at all understood John Chronology, he would not write such nonsense. These 144,000 are surely the SAME 144,000 that were sealed in chapter 7. But here, they are around the throne. There is NOT ONE WORD of them "getting victory over the Beast." Why is that? It is because they were RAPTURED TO HEAVEN before those days of great tribulation. I believe they were raptured to heaven VERY NEAR the time of the abomination that divides the week. John can not write everything that happens at the midpoint in the same verse, so it had to be in chapter 14. But John PROVES that this is very soon after the abomination, for notice what he writes just after:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Would anyone DARE to say that God gives the warning AFTER THE FACT? Of course He would not: this warning will come BEFORE the mark is set up. Therefore, it will be BEFORE the Beast will be beheading people that refuse the mark. Therefore, in chapter 14, John is still VERY CLOSE to the midpoint of the week. And therefore it is PLAIN that the 144,000 are raptured to heaven BEFORE they even know about the mark. So of course John does not write if them getting victory over the beast - they may not have even seen the beast - and surely did not face days of great tribulation.

Therefore, when Veteran writes: "And these are also those of Rev.15 that are before God's throne that had gotten victory over the beast, over his mark, over his image, and over the number of his name, meaning - they went through the tribulation."

He is only showing his ignorance of John's chronology. The 144,000 are ALWAYS mentioned as the 144,000. But by the time John gets to chapter 15, the mark HAS BEEN set up, and days of GT have come: people are being beheaded. This group in chapter 15 is NOT THE SAME PEOPLE. They are a DIFFERENT group.

Veteran next writes: "Rev.20:4 is another look at these 144,000 that reign with Christ during the thousand years."

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Does ANYONE read "144,000" here in these words? I certainly don't. Yes, there are thrones. yes, some people are seated on those thrones. But is the 144,000? It is FAR MORE LIKELY to be the church. Then we read of "the souls of them that were beheaded." Does Veteran mean these? Was the 144,000 beheaded? Veteran is trying to add to scripture again: NO WHERE does John tell us that the 144,000 were beheaded. They were sealed for their protection! Is Veteran telling us that God's protection is worthless? In truth, John does not tell us that the 144,000 are in either of these groups.

Next, Veteran writes: "That's the same picture back at Rev.7:9 forward too about the great multitude that came out of great tribulation having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb, making them white."

I just may agree with Veteran here, if he is saying that that huge group seen around the throne in 7:9 are in this group in 20:4. I believe that we, the church, are those seated on the thrones, and will be judges during the 1000 years. But I am not sure if that was Veteran's meaning.

Sadly, Veteran goes on to write: "John being asked where those came from in the Rev.7 chapter is an essential part of Christ's Message there, especially since it gives the 'timing' they appear before His Throne being after they had come out of great tribulation. No secret rapture there at all. Nor is that a mid-trib rapture either."

Veteran does not realize that these are in heaven at the throne BEFORE the 70th week has even begun. But that is understandable, for Veteran simply does not understand John's chronology. But how could one, if they think John wrote everything in the wrong place and it must be rearranged? Veteran does not realize that those two words together, "great tribulation" is NOT a title for the last half of the week, but can mean ANY TIME where people are dying because of there testimony. Veteran does not understand that John wrote in chapter 1 of Revelation that he was in "the tribulation." (See verse 9 in any of the Greek texts, the "the" is there in all Greek texts: John was in "the tribulation" way back in 95 AD.)

Next, Jesus told John to write this to the church at Thyatira:

22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Here there was a harlot, Jezebel, at this church in 95 AD. And she was committing adultery with the men in the church. Does Veteran think God was to keep these men alive for 2000 years so they could face the REAL "great tribulation?" NO! NO! NO! All Jesus is saying here is that God can make GREAT TRIBULATION any time He wants. Therefore, the "great tribulation" as seen in this verse has NO RELATION to any time of the 70th week at all. And the truth is, neither does the "great tribulation in Rev. 7:14 relate to ANY TIME during the 70th week. It is a simple fact: John has not yet started the week. In fact, John does not get the the Beast who CAUSES the GT until chapter 13! Therefore, this huge group too large to number DOES speak of the rapture of the church. It fits perfectly with Paul's "thief in the night," his "day of the Lord," and his "sudden destruction."

The 1 Thess.4:17 verse is also a favorite single one verse charlie quote by the pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrinists. It's easy to quote just that verse by itself and then throw it in with the doctrines of men. But what about a very important verse just before it that goes with it, which again Coop failed to quote?

1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Got a different picture now with that 16th verse, even info of the timing when that is to occur. When that archangel sounds that "trump", it's the 7th trump of Revelation, the "last trump" Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about Christ's coming and the resurrection of the dead, and the saints still on earth at that moment being changed at the "twinkling of an eye" and gathered with the asleep saints He brings with Him.

Sorry, but people have been trying, unsuccessfully, to associate Paul's "last trump" with the 7th trump of Revelation ever since John wrote - but even today it WILL NOT WORK. Even a beginning reader can understand the difference between a the "trump of God" and a trumpet blast sounded by an angel. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

Coop
continued...

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote

Then we're supposed to remember what events occur on that "last trump" which are given in Rev.11 about the 7th angel sounding on the 3rd woe. That's when Christ's only return and our gathering happens, which is shown there to end the tribulation, the great earthquake of Zech.14 happens in Jerusalem, and Christ's wrath upon the wicked happens, and His servants are then handed out their reward, and Christ physically takes rule over all the nations. And of course all that aligns with what our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.24 that His coming would be after the tribulation upon His saints. That's not a pre-trib rapture of the saints, nor a mid-trib rapture, but after the tribulation is when Christ gathers His saints.

This is all myth and human reasoning, not backed up by anything. Christ does not come back at the 7th trump. That is myth. Neither is there ANY "gathering" at the 7th trumpet. Of course Veteran has tried over and over to move the 7th trump to the END Of the week, to chapter 19 - but it will not work. John wrote it in chapter 11, a MIDPOINT chapter. Men have also tried to make the Matt 24 gathering the rapture too - but that fails. It is not the same gathering. AT the rapture we will have supernatural bodies and will FLY up into the air. We will need no angels, for we will have bodies similar to theirs.

I've already covered the John 14 idea of "mansions" in my previous posts, which is misused as another single verse quote by the pre-trib rapture folks taken totally out of Biblical context.

Veteran has no end of trying to explain away simple verses that a child could understand. It is a fact that God has been preparing mansions for us. SO MANY people that have been allowed to see into heaven have SEEN with their own eyes, the mansions John wrote of. They are there. They are real. No matter how bad Veteran don't want them there. He is overruled by Christ.

Here's an example of how Coop does that...

Rev 15:1-3
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
(KJV)

Does anyone see two different timings being given between those Rev.15:1 and 15:2 verses? You should, because the saints in verse 2 are shown having gotten victory over the beast, over his image, over his mark, and over the number of his name, meaning they had to go through the tribulation to do that. In other words, they were in no way raptured before the tribulation, but went through it and overcame through Christ Jesus. But what timing is the 1st verse, since it's about Christ's wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked? If you paid any attention at all to the times given back in Rev.11 on the 7th angel sounding, the 7th trumpet when Christ returns and gathers His saints, you should notice that's also when His time of wrath is poured upon the wicked...

It seems there is NO END to Veteran's need to rearrange. In Revelation 15:1, John sees the angels with the plagues and vials of God's wrath, because it is NOW TIME for them to be poured out. The abomination happened in chapter 11, and time has been moving on. By chapter 15 the mark has been set up and IS BEING ENFORCED. In other words, the TIMING of 15: 1 is "those days" of "Great tribulation" as spoken by Jesus. God will use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN "those days." So there is no difference in timing between verse one and two. Again Veteran does not like John's chronology, so must REARRANGE.

Always remember, readers, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect and WILL BE PROVEN WRONG.

Verse 15:2 shows SOME of those beheaded by the Beast, but not all of them. They are being beheaded through some of the vials, until the shortening is completed and the beheading comes to a halt. In other words, 15:2 is just a snapshot in time, after SOME of those that the Beast kills are in heaven.

Worse, Veteran thinks those are PROOF that the rapture did not yet take place. Of course they are NOT proof of this: This is perhaps 4 to 6 years after the rapture at the 6th seal - so there has been PLENTY OF TIME for millions to turn to Christ AFTER the rapture. And of course there will be those like Veteran that COULD go up in the rapture if he only believed in it. But since he does not, God will give him exactly what he is believing for - he will be left behind to face the Beast.

For the readers: it DOES MATTER what you believe concerning the rapture. It is written that He will come for those LOOKING for His coming. For those not looking, I believe God will give them exactly what they are believing for.

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

The time of Christ's wrath doesn't happen until He comes to gather His saints. That's what the Rev.11:15 forward verses are showing, because it's linked with the last trumpet sounding, that same "trump" of 1 Thess.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:52 remember?

This means the Rev.15:1 verse is the time of Christ's coming on the day of The LORD, which is the same time He pours out His wrath upon the wicked and gathers His saints. But Rev.15:2 is just after that, a picture of those who went through the tribulation and had gotten (past tense) victory over the Rev.13 beast, over his image (idol setup for false worship per end of Rev.13), and over his mark (Rev.13), and over the number of his name (Rev.13).

This is more of Veteran's misunderstanding of the time of God's wrath. John makes it clear that God's wrath is seen at the 6th seal, and will certainly be felt at the Day of the Lord that starts soon after the signs at the 6th seal. Therefore, God's wrath will have been ongoing for 3 1/2 years by the time of this verse in 11:18. Veteran does not understand that this is a Greek AORIST verb in "thy wrath is come." MOST of the verbs John uses are Greek Aorist tense verbs, which simply include NO TIMING INFORMATION. As Thayers says, "not inflected to show tense." Therefore, we must understand the timing from the CONTEXT, not from the Greek verbs. Certainly God's wrath HAS come, for it began in the trumpet judgements in chapter 8. That is why the rapture must take place BEFORE the first trumpet is sounded; and indeed it does, as shown in Rev. 7. Again, Veteran is confused about the trumpets: The "trump of God" CANNOT be compared with a trumpet of an angel.

But the Pre-trib secret rapture doctrine would have you believe that Christ comes in secret before that tribulation and raptures out a select group of saints, leaving all the rest behind on earth to go through the tribulation. That's why Coop wants to think Christ hands out His rewards to His saints early, even before the tribulation, or even while it's still going on, and are in heaven with Him even before the tribulation or while it's still going on.

In truth, Jesus DOES come first, before the "tribulation" or 70th week begins. John proves this by the great crowd, seen in Rev. 7. This is BEFORE any trumpet is sounded. John shows us the great crowd immediately after the sealing of the 144,000, but the actual rapture to GET them into heaven, happened before the sealing, at the 6th seal. It is a simple fact: we are in heaven during the 70th week. We are there for the marriage and marriage supper just before Jesus gets on the white horse. It IS a select group of saints, for it is "to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven." But even then, of that group, it is ONLY those that are looking for His coming. If someone has convinced themselves that they will see the Beast, I believe God will give them exactly what they are believing for.
Why would ANYONE DESIRE to make an apppointment with God's wrath, when God Himself has made no such appointment? Why would ANYONE desire to stay, when God has made a way of escape?

You can BET that Satan is ever ready to push a prewrath and post trib rapture doctrine - for it is his hope to put as many people that love Christ into the pressure cooker: FORCE them to either lose their head or deny Christ. He DELIGHTS in doing this, as seen by the fiery furnace. He has done it before and will do it again, but on a world wide scale.

Our Lord Jesus sealed His Truth that we His servants will go through the tribulation when He showed John about those of Rev.15 that had gotten victory over the beast, and the great multitude from all nations that came out of great tribulation having washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of The Lamb (Rev.7:9 forward).

What Jesus really shows us is all those that were LEFT BEHIND at the rapture. This will be many fence sitters; it will be many that are playing church but have never been born again; and too bad, it will also be some that are truly born again, but believe against the scriptures that they must face the Beast. They are determined to keep an appointment never set by God. They are determined to scoff at God's planned way of escape.

For the readers: it DOES MATTER what you believe.

As Paul wrote:

Heb 9
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

WHO will see Him? Only those that "look for Him." Therefore this cannot be the same coming where "ever eye shall behold Him."

What does Paul write AFTER he writes "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation...?"
He writes, "Wherefore comfort yourselves together..." Why are we to be comforted? Because we have no appointment!! Paul writes, instead of facing His wrath, we "obtain salvation!" It is "they" who face the "sudden destruction," that we MISS by way of rapture. Always remember, Paul write these things JUST AFTER he wrote of the catching away of those who are alive and remain.

Just ask yourself WHICH IDEA gives the most "comfort:" being left behind to face a beheading - - or leaving with the rest of the church in the rapture?

Coop