What Happens at the Moment of Death?

[John the Baptist]

Lewis says: "I just want to hear some opinions on this."

Well, as the post on 'death' was rather lengthly, (as Vic told me in another thread about mine :wink: ) and it seems that three replies at least, here are mods? Let me just reply to [your] above question?
with how I very simply, see your question?

I see Adam created perfect up to the point of being laid out on the ground. Perfect?? Well, he was not alive as of yet, to be called a Living Soul, OK?

Now I reason:
How old was he? If some of these educated creationist were around and had seen him, they would need to study his height, weight, (what ever else they do??) and say what? maybe 30? 40? But, we know that God spake, and it stood fast, huh? (at least the heavens & earth)

OK, back to dead Adam! Could he think yet, did he remember the day before, was he a 'living soul' yet???

I think that he was quite a dead giant myself, perhaps 16 ft. tall??
But anyway Lewis, Adam, we are told had God to 'breath the breath of life into his nostrils' Gen. 2:7

Now, I do not see that God put any 'soul' into his 'nostrils' or lungs?? But really now, I have for even some 35+ years ago, believed the simple statements of God's Word. It does say 'breath of life' in my K.J. And then I see that Adam 'became a living soul'!

Well, that is how I have always believed it. And at death the breath leaves the body & the 'soul'? It ceased to be living and the person became once again a dead soul!. And yes, the devil was a liar from the beginning! And I do not believe him!Genesis 3:4

---John

 

[Oscar3]

Great topic but easy answer for Christians who have taken Jesus as their Lord and Saviour (must be the triune GOD) Not this created Jesus.

As My Jesus told the theif on the cross. Today you will be with me in paradise.. Come to think of it, would it be fair to say the thief on the cross was the first to see and be in heaven????

Thanks and God bless you. Oscar

Hi Oscar,

Ho, this is not as easy to answer as some think it is. I addressed this very verse in my post above. In case you missed it, here, I will repost it.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise. (LITV)

Is Paradise Heaven? If one says it is, did Jesus go there right after His death?

Hi Vic.
I will look into this further. What you say does make sense.
Why do some people say Jesus went to hell for three days. Is that in the bible?
What is (LITV).
Thanks Vic
Oscar

 

[Vic C.]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (King James Version)

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You'll get no arguments from me, since this is scripture, hence scriptural. I do notice one thing about this verse and I don't know if it makes a difference;

It says, "the spirit" and not "your spirit", nor does it say soul and spirit. So I "wonder" whether this Spirit carries with it all the "traits" of the person it inhabited. Also, this verse makes no distinction between those who are to enter Heaven and those who do not. I can only conclude that this Spirit is void of anything characteristic of the body it inhabited.

Anyways, I am uncomfortable telling people they are going to Heaven as soon as they die. For me, this bypasses any Judgement, since I believe all Judgement is in the future and not at the moment of death. It also doesn't take into consideration the fact that we mere mortals have no idea whether of not a person is truely saved.

We may believe as individuals that we are saved, but do we know without a shadow of a doubt if another person is saved or not?

I too believe the body and soul are somehow seperated at death, but I'm not so certain about the "fate" of our souls, given the many metaphorical references to the soul in Scripture.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic.
I will look into this further. What you say does make sense.
Why do some people say Jesus went to hell for three days. Is that in the bible?
What is (LITV).
Thanks Vic
Oscar

Thanks Oscar. As you can see, I am really on the "fence" with this doctrine of an immortal soul. I'm not even certain it is an essential belief, though it is a deep and interesting study.

LITV is a literal translation of the Textus Receptus, which has it's roots in the Byzantine Text. The Textus Receptus was the primary source of the KJB and Young's Literal Trabslation. (YLT)

http://www.litvonline.com

and

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=15;

Why do some people say Jesus went to hell for three days. Is that in the bible?

It comes frome here:

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

And here:

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Oscar3]

Vic
O wow
ThAnks Oscar

 

[John the Baptist]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (King James Version)

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You'll get no arguments from me, since this is scripture, hence scriptural. I do notice one thing about this verse and I don't know if it makes a difference;

It says, "the spirit" and not "your spirit", nor does it say soul and spirit. So I "wonder" whether this Spirit carries with it all the "traits" of the person it inhabited. Also, this verse makes no distinction between those who are to enter Heaven and those who do not. I can only conclude that this Spirit is void of anything characteristic of the body it inhabited.Anyways, I am uncomfortable telling people they are going to Heaven as soon as they die. For me, this bypasses any Judgement, since I believe all Judgement is in the future and not at the moment of death. It also doesn't take into consideration the fact that we mere mortals have no idea whether of not a person is truly saved.

We may believe as individuals that we are saved, but do we know without a shadow of a doubt if another person is saved or not?

I too believe the body and soul are somehow separated at death, but I'm not so certain about the "fate" of our souls, given the many metaphorical references to the soul in Scripture.

**
We are to be Born Again to 'get' started. And Acts 5:32 tells us who has gotten the Holy Ghost. Surely we can see that He is in us & is not us or we in Him??? But still is conditional, huh?

In Romans 8:26-27 we see that one is Born Again Spiritual. Such as Romans 8:1 & Romans 8:14 finds the rebirth ones IN CHRIST & LED by the Holy Spirit. Yet, as in Genesis 6:3 the STRIVING of the Holy Spirit does not mean that the Holy Spirit is in everybody! And surely the evil spirit can be in some? At least Christ was speaking to Peter and said get behind me satan.

But if one does research, perhaps they would find something more out on the breath of life & a living soul?

 

[gingercat]

When we die, we go to sleep until resurrection time if we are Jesus' followers. Others who were wicked, unrigheouse or rejected Jesus stay dead. Some never had chance to hear good news they will be given chance in 1000 years of Jesus' raign.

 

[gingercat]

BTW,

soul is breathing beings. Animals and humans have souls and when they die, souls die too.

spirit is the power of God.

 

[Vic C.]

Others who were wicked, unrigheouse or rejected Jesus stay dead. Some never had chance to hear good news they will be given chance in 1000 years of Jesus' raign.

Just for the record, can we see Scripture for that?

Thanks. 8-)

 

[John the Baptist]

Vic
O wow
ThAnks Oscar

****
Hi Oscar, just wondering if that answers your question, or does it now have you believing what some folks say that the verses mean?

And Vic, is that enough in just giving the scripture to him, (her) without your conviction of what they truthfully mean??

Perhaps, the 66 Books that teach me, I have misunderstood? For I would need to follow through some at least while there was still sincere interest.

And the thread subject is death, and ALL of those folk were & are dead.
One best read all of the above again with these verses.

Vic stated..
It comes from here:

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

And here:

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
__________

---John

 

[gingercat]

Others who were wicked, unrigheouse or rejected Jesus stay dead. Some never had chance to hear good news they will be given chance in 1000 years of Jesus' raign.

Just for the record, can we see Scripture for that?

Thanks. 8-)

Vic,

I am just giving you something to think about. So far not many have been taking me seriousely, and my learning hasn't been taken seriousely. This topic takes considarable open mindedness and seriouse studying. My English skill is not sufficient enough for complete information.

thank you

 

[Johny]

If Jesus preached to the Saints who had died before He had came, then it would seem that when we die we do not "sleep".

Paradise is not Heaven. It was where the Saints who had died before Christ's death and resurrection.

The "Bosom of Abraham" seems to indicate that we do not "sleep". If not, then what did it mean?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

 

[John the Baptist]

Well, I can prove that Luke 16 is a parable if a person can really believe the Christ God? The proof is very easy to understand, if one truly believes Christ's Word.
And I do understand that even a Christian goes from milk to meat in their spiritual diet of growth. And not to sound bigoted, 'i' also know that we [all] grow strong in different parts of our spiritual body.

And my friend Vic, Gingercat? she (?) is just mistaken with her theology as most here are, according to Revelation 18:4. But you know that, huh?

Surely the Striving of the Holy Ghost as seen in Genesis 6:3 could leave no one without a opportunity to accept Christ. And what was that message? see what the first thing that Noah did upon leaving the Ark! Genesis 8:20. And the Gentile ones of Romans 2:14-15 did not need us even, huh? :wink:
And yes, these will be saved without even ever hearing of Christ as a person the way that we had the opportunity. Yet, notice where the Required (see Hebrews 8:10) Christ Epistle Eternal Covenant Law is located! And where His Message came from. (compare 2 Cor. 3:3)

Quote:
Others who were wicked, unrigheouse or rejected Jesus stay dead. Some never had chance to hear good news they will be given chance in 1000 years of Jesus' raign.

But yes, any ['fold'] who teach this false doctrine as Truth, are among the one's of Revelation 17:5

---John

 

[gingercat]

John, It seems to me you are one of those spreading false teachings.

 

[gingercat]

Lewis,

If you don't get rid of traditional protestants' and Catholic's teachings, you cannot connect all your findings, my friend.

 

[gingercat]

There are some who were never part of the RCC from the beginning. They have been keeping the truth and passing it along to faithful ones. so they are not confused like most protestants.

 

[Vic C.]

And Vic, is that enough in just giving the scripture to him, (her) without your conviction of what they truthfully mean??...

... And my friend Vic, Gingercat? she (?) is just mistaken with her theology as most here are, according to Revelation 18:4. But you know that, huh?

Baby steps, N.B. Her Scripture first; our convictions about the meaning after scripture is provided. Unfortunately, no scripture was provided, instead I was told to think about it and have an open mind. Is Scripture (most) open-minded amyway?

 

[charlesj]

I just want to hear some opinions on this.


Written by: B. L. Cocherell.
(Originally titled What is the state of the DEAD?)
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/state-dead.html

Hello Lewis:

Are you a Sabbath keeper? Most of the time Sabbath keepers (or Jehovah Witnesses) present this doctrine. (No offense, just curious)

Most of the time when you try to prove the "state of the dead" you must go to the Old Testament scriptures to prove you points. In the New Testament
we find different thoughts on the state of the dead.
Since the time of Christ and His death I feel things have changed. We are not held in "sleep mode", but are changed. Like my brother Paul, he would rather be absent from the flesh and in the presence of the LOrd.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

When one becomes a Christian, their whole being is changed.

your servant in Messiah,
charlesj

p.s. if you want to email me on this I would be glad to discuss it more with you. cjemeyson@satx.rr.com

 

[John the Baptist]

It is interesting to me that when a person makes a statement like I did about Luke 16, that there is not anyone who wants the proof?

The quote was: Well, I can prove that Luke 16 is a parable if a person can really believe the Christ God? The proof is very easy to understand, if one truly believes Christ's Word.

So, one hears nothing? What is a person suppose to think??? Perhaps they wonder who around here believes the Word of God? :roll:

---John

 

[Vic C.]

It is interesting to me that when a person makes a statement like I did about Luke 16, that there is not anyone who wants the proof?

The quote was: Well, I can prove that Luke 16 is a parable if a person can really believe the Christ God? The proof is very easy to understand, if one truly believes Christ's Word.

So, one hears nothing? What is a person suppose to think??? Perhaps they wonder who around here believes the Word of God? :roll:

---John

Who's going to argue it is a parable when Jesus' dissertation starts off with:

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

:wink: