What Happens at the Moment of Death?

[John the Baptist]

:fadein:

 

[John the Baptist]

Hay, You don't believe Webster's definition on purgatory??

I was just reading over on another site :wink: After reading this below, I wonder if the jesuits are not everywhere? How do you explain Revelation 17:5 I even hear that B.B. Beach of the General Conf. (life/time appointee?) of SDA gave the pope a gold medallion.

Some very cruel people, keep coming here and posting porno site links here. In the past I have just deleted them. But now because they don't seem like that they want to stop. I am going to report the next ones to their Internet Provider, their internet provider number is visible everytime that they post. And I will also copy and paste just what they have posted and send them to their internet provider. I try to give people a chance, but this has gone to far. This is a Christian site, and to do what they do is very disrespectful and cruel. But I have had it, and I will report who ever does this again.

Lewis E Williams IV
Site Founder

And to stay on the thread of death? Consider Ezekiel 37, huh? Or the ALL SLEEPING of Matthew 25

 

[Lewis]

Hay, You don't believe Webster's definition on purgatory??

I was just reading over on another site :wink: After reading this below, I wonder if the jesuits are not everywhere? How do you explain Revelation 17:5 I even hear that B.B. Beach of the General Conf. (life/time appointee?) of SDA gave the pope a gold medallion.

Some very cruel people, keep coming here and posting porno site links here. In the past I have just deleted them. But now because they don't seem like that they want to stop. I am going to report the next ones to their Internet Provider, their internet provider number is visible everytime that they post. And I will also copy and paste just what they have posted and send them to their internet provider. I try to give people a chance, but this has gone to far. This is a Christian site, and to do what they do is very disrespectful and cruel. But I have had it, and I will report who ever does this again.

Lewis E Williams IV
Site Founder

And to stay on the thread of death? Consider Ezekiel 37, huh? Or the ALL SLEEPING of Matthew 25

Yes John I have to get tuff.

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="John the Baptist":7ea5b]Hay, You don't believe Webster's definition on purgatory??

I was just reading over on another site :wink: After reading this below, I wonder if the jesuits are not everywhere? How do you explain Revelation 17:5 I even hear that B.B. Beach of the General Conf. (life/time appointee?) of SDA gave the pope a gold medallion.

Some very cruel people, keep coming here and posting porno site links here. In the past I have just deleted them. But now because they don't seem like that they want to stop. I am going to report the next ones to their Internet Provider, their internet provider number is visible everytime that they post. And I will also copy and paste just what they have posted and send them to their internet provider. I try to give people a chance, but this has gone to far. This is a Christian site, and to do what they do is very disrespectful and cruel. But I have had it, and I will report who ever does this again.

Lewis E Williams IV
Site Founder

And to stay on the thread of death? Consider Ezekiel 37, huh? Or the ALL SLEEPING of Matthew 25

Yes John I have to get tuff.[/quote:7ea5b]

****
:wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Darn Jesuits are everywhere. :shocked!:

LMBO!

I like that smiley face. :-D

 

[thessalonian]

Re: Death?

[quote="John the Baptist":4d95c]purgatory

'an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification'
'a place or state of temporary punishment'

So says Webster's New Dictionary

I don't buy it.[/quote:4d95c]

Lewis,

I think I posted my imputed righteousness question to you didn't I? Do you think snow covered dung gets to heaven. If someone who is unsanctified or has barely started the sanctification process dies, what happens to them? Let's say a man gets on a bus. Now this man is a very severe alcoholic, drug addict, and has a live in girlfriend who he cheats on for starters. Okay so he sits down next to of all people Billy Graham and of course Billy hits him over the head with the Gospel. The man is repents and puts his trust in Jesus. The process of sanctification has begun for him. Billy of course has gone through years of working for the Lord. Never been drunk or cheated on his wife. He has been through much sanctification. Well as luck would have it the bus goes off a cliff and both die. Now they both are saved according to protestant theology, but are they both at the same state of purity? You know, nothing unclean shall enter. The new convert, had he gone home would still be tempted to smoke the bag of pot in his drawer and drink the booze in the liquor cabinet. He might even fall. He would still have stuggles in his relationship with the women he is involved with. His thoughts are still in lust mode. Billy of course never thinks of cheating on his wife. His mind is trained, though I wouldn't claim he is perfect. It's obvious that something has to give here for the person who believes in imputed righteousness. Between death and resurrection to new life, something has to change.


John,

Perhaps you can prove your jesuit/porn accusations or stop posting stupid biggotry. Thanks.

 

[John the Baptist]

Some posts sure sound like 'personal' gentile dog attacking to me folks? :fadein: Matthew 10:25.

But then, by their fruits ye shall know them. And my 'old buddy' has quite sending me warnings I guess?

But back to the thread topic? So, where was the scripture for that 1/2 way house 'purgatory' found... while one is DEAD????

---John

 

[thessalonian]

Is it that the word purgatory isn't in the bible that bothers you John? What does God have to do, tatoo it on your head? 1 Cor 3:15 for starters. When do the works of the new convert get burned up John? You do believe in sanctification don't you? It would seem that you think it is unneccessary for the new convert.

Back up your accusations John. That's all I ask. YOu keep posting inuendo and accusations against men of the cloth without any substantial support for what you say. You are guilty of bearing false witness unless you can back them up. That's a commandment John. Something your evidently not too interested in.

 

[thessalonian]

gentile dog

Why John was this aimed at me? Seems so. I thought you were above name calling and personal attacks. Apparently not. :-?

 

[John the Baptist]

1 Corinthians 3:15 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

****
Well here is something I will respond to.
If one knows about the work to be done by any professed minister as is seen in Ezekiel 33:6-9 they might see a corelation there with your one verse above? But Zero in on the K.J. on Ezekiel 33:8-9. That should help? (If not, try Ezekiel 18:24-28)

Now, just supposing that most (some?) people understand that a minister of God is what Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians 3:2-15 which you left out. They (the ministers) are accountable for 'seed' sowing. (Matthew 28:20 in particular!) And it is God that gives the harvest increase!! Got that?

Ezekiels warning in Eze. 33 is because of it being their *required duty!

OK: If it is faithfully done, your above verse applied to Paul or whoever God uses? (even the stones would cry out if need be! 'me') Yet, the 'seed' soul is accountable for himself, and not against the preachers salvation, unless he is unfaithful as most are!. (or there would be no Rev. 17:5 ones, huh?) Compare Luke 12:47-48 with your 1 Corinthian 3:13-15.

Think of it this way. Noah preached for 120 years. Was he accountable for only 8 souls being saved??? Surely his message was a Christ Centered one, for the first thing that he did upon leaving the Ark, was offer the required Offering as Hebrews 11:13 shows. And if Paul could have right then have spoken to him, perhaps the next thing he did might have been avoided? Yet, God's choosen have very heavy hearts for the lost! So Noah was depresed with himself & went out and got drunk.
Yet, I can relate to this evil act. I suspect that at times we seem to think that the message that one preaches falls on deaf ears, and is our fault? (check the forums)
But, be that as it may,(?) this is what Paul was teaching!

---John

 

[thessalonian]

Thx for a traditional interpretation John. I'll file it with the rest of the theories on what that passage means. You seem to neglect the FACT that Paul applies what he says to "ANY MAN".

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 1

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Thess,

What's your thought on Mt 20 and how do you regard that to your statment about being purified?

 

[thessalonian]

Hey Thess,

What's your thought on Mt 20 and how do you regard that to your statment about being purified?

Catholicism does not teach imputed righteousness, but infused righteousness and so the passage in our framework makes sense. When we become Christians our souls are perfectly cleansed, ie. sanctified (we are hired). Along the way we sin and we work for God. Someone who is hired later (becomes a Christian) is fully sanctified, i.e. he is given full wage of a clean conscience that the others have who have been laboring for some time in Christ. However this "new Christian" will sin along the way and go through the sin and sanctification process.

Your trying to apply the passage as an arguement from my understanding is problematic on a couple of fronts. First of all it seems to me that it negates sanctification as having any real eternal purpose. Secondly it seems to me that it implies equal position in heaven, ie. equal reward for everyone. This is not scriptural. I also think it is not consistent with your view and the view of the majority of Protestants.

 

[John the Baptist]

quote: "You seem to neglect the FACT that Paul applies what he says to "ANY MAN"."

Not really, If the stones are needed to cry out , that surely is inclusive, huh? :fadein: !

--John

 

[stovebolts]

Lewis,
I sure wish people would study the book of Job a bit more. It is a wealth of glory.
I won't claim to fully understand the book of Job, but it really is one of my favorite books. Matter of fact, I've been studying it verse by verse on and off for about 2 weeks, not to mention that I've got it on CD, NIV Dramatized version. I've listened to it a few times and everytime I do, I get a little bit better at descerning the arguments.

But anyway, I'd like to post a few comments from the NET Bible on Job 14:14

14:14 If a man dies, will he live again?38
All the days of my hard service 39 I will wait 40
-until my release comes. 41

38tc The LXX removes the interrogative and makes the statement affirmative, i.e., that man will live again. This reading is taken by D. H. Gard (“The Concept of the Future Life according to the Greek Translator of the Book of Job,†JBL 73 [1954]: 137-38). D. J. A. Clines follows this, putting both of the expressions in the wish clause: “if a man dies and could live again…†(Job [WBC], 332). If that is the way it is translated, then the verbs in the second half of the verse and in the next verse would all be part of the apodosis, and should be translated “would.†The interpretation would not greatly differ; it would be saying that if there was life after death, Job would long for his release – his death. If the traditional view is taken and the question was raised whether there was life after death (the implication of the question being that there is), then Job would still be longing for his death. The point the line is making is that if there is life after death, that would be all the more reason for Job to eagerly expect, to hope for, his death.

39tn See Job 7:1.

40tn The verb אֲיַחֵל (’ayakhel) may be rendered “I will/would wait†or “I will/would hope.†The word describes eager expectation and longing hope.

41tn The construction is the same as that found in the last verse: a temporal preposition עַד (’ad) followed by the infinitive construct followed by the subjective genitive “release/relief.†Due, in part, to the same verb (חָלַף, khalaf) having the meaning “sprout again†in v. 7, some take “renewal†as the meaning here (J. E. Hartley, Alden, NIV, ESV).

Job 7:1 “Does not humanity have hard service 1 on earth?
Are not their days also
like the days of a hired man?2

1tn The word צָבָא (tsava’) is actually “armyâ€Â; it can be used for the hard service of military service as well as other toil. As a military term it would include the fixed period of duty (the time) and the hard work (toil). Job here is considering the lot of all humans, not just himself.

2tn The שָׂכִיר (sakhir) is a hired man, either a man who works for wages, or a mercenary soldier (Jer 46:21). The latter sense may be what is intended here in view of the parallelism, although the next verse seems much broader.

 

[John the Baptist]

Well it seems that you need to come on back & rescue the thread? ---John



Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: What Happens at the Moment of Death?

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I just want to hear some opinions on this.

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Thess,

What's your thought on Mt 20 and how do you regard that to your statment about being purified?

Catholicism does not teach imputed righteousness, but infused righteousness and so the passage in our framework makes sense. When we become Christians our souls are perfectly cleansed, ie. sanctified (we are hired). Along the way we sin and we work for God. Someone who is hired later (becomes a Christian) is fully sanctified, i.e. he is given full wage of a clean conscience that the others have who have been laboring for some time in Christ. However this "new Christian" will sin along the way and go through the sin and sanctification process.

Your trying to apply the passage as an arguement from my understanding is problematic on a couple of fronts. First of all it seems to me that it negates sanctification as having any real eternal purpose. Secondly it seems to me that it implies equal position in heaven, ie. equal reward for everyone. This is not scriptural. I also think it is not consistent with your view and the view of the majority of Protestants.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Actually, I wasn't trying to imply anything. I just wanted to know how you applied that passage.

Cheers

 

[John the Baptist]

Well it seems that you need to come on back & rescue the thread? ---John



Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: What Happens at the Moment of Death?

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I just want to hear some opinions on this.

____________________________________

What do you make of John 11:11-15 and John 11:32-36 & John 11:39-43 & verse 44??? Then of course there is Luke 16:31! Which brings up the thought in my 'early days' of hearing antichrist folks saying that Christ was an created angel/son. And here we would see that angels can raise the dead then, huh? Even satan is an 'created' angel. A permanently DEAD one shortly though, huh? Obadiah 1:16

---John

 

[Oscar3]

Well after reading all the differant theological opinions from many people this is my expert opinion that means nothing.
Now I can only speak of myself.
When I die I am going to heaven. Its that simple.

 

[John the Baptist]

Well after reading all the differant theological opinions from many people this is my expert opinion that means nothing.
Now I can only speak of myself.
When I die I am going to heaven. Its that simple.

********
Hay Oscar,
I hope to die 'in' the faith too & be there. Hebrews 11:13 Even this verse has only said that these ones are dead, & met the conditions of their baptismal agreement with the Godhead. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 All ten! James 2:8-12

So, when Christ comes again He has said that He would bring His reward with Him, for these only who DIED IN THE FAITH. The others? They stay DEAD untile the 1000 years are past.

But your post did not make it simple for me, (just for you and other who believe as you do) when are you going to go to heaven is the question? Are we not both going to heaven when we die, just perhaps not at the same time???

So far as I see it, the 'post' has said only that you plan to be "IN THE FAITH" at death? Great, and me too! :fadein: (unless Christ comes before we see death) Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9

---John