What Happens When You Die...

[stovebolts]

Sorry, was multi tasking and that wasn't very clear.

About the Parable.

Clearly Lazurus was conscious in Abraham's bosom. Why would Jesus tell a story about two people who were dead having a conversation if in Jewish thought they thought that once you died your conscience slept?

 

[Butch5]

The link I provided gives us a Jewish understanding of death. Also, the parable of Lazurus in Abraham's bosom is derived from Jewish thought. Why would Jesus make up a parable where the deceased are "sleeping" and not concience if it wasn't a jewish idea that the jewish thought couldn't relate to?

Hi,

He may have been appealing to Jewish thought. However, I don't believe He is teaching that when one dies there is a consciousness the lives on. I think the parable is a rebuke to the Pharisees. If we look at the context of the story Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom. Jesus told the Jewish leadership that they would see people coming from the east and the west to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom, but they themselves would be cast out. This is what we see with Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus is with Abraham and the rich man cast out. I think Jesus is using this parable to show the Jewish leadership this. Notice the rich man asks that Lazarus be sent to his brothers. Abraham said, they have Moses and the Prophets. The Pharisees and leadership had Moses and the prophets. Abraham said, if they don't believe Moses and the Prophets they will not believe if one rises from the dead. Jesus knew He was going to do this very thing and He knew they still would not believe even though He rose from the dead. I believe this parable is speaking of this very thing.

 

[stovebolts]

Please read the link I provided. If one simply slept when one died, why would Jesus affirm a false idea with his parable? Also, what does it mean to be born again?

 

[Webb]

The Bible is its best commentary. "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it", Eccl. 12:7.

 

[Butch5]

Please read the link I provided. If one simply slept when one died, why would Jesus affirm a false idea with his parable? Also, what does it mean to be born again?

I don't think he's affirming it. I think He's using something they understood. Just as Paul made mention of the Greek poets. He wasn't affirming Greek poetry, he was using something they already understood to make a point. If we understand Jesus to be teaching of consciousness after death we're opposed to the OT teaching on the creation and death of man. In Genesis we have the creation of man. God formed the body from the dust and breathed His breath/spirit into it and it became a living soul. In the book of Job Scripture says if God retrieves His breath/spirit all flesh will die. The book of Ecclesiastes says there is one breath/spirit in a man and that he is like the animals. We know from Genesis that that one breath/spirit is God's. There's nothing that teaches a consciousness after death. I just don't see Jesus overturning the whole of OT teaching on the subject, especially when that teaching doesn't even fit the context of what He's saying.

 

[stovebolts]

The Bible is its best commentary. "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it", Eccl. 12:7.

Hi Webb,
Yes, I do believe that is the case. However, what do you think scripture means when we are "Born Again". Certainly we don't crawl back into our mothers womb.

 

[Webb]

Nicodemus apparently thought one did ( and thats what many sectarians today think to escape obedience to the gospel) but Jesus set him straight on that.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't think he's affirming it. I think He's using something they understood. Just as Paul made mention of the Greek poets. He wasn't affirming Greek poetry, he was using something they already understood to make a point. If we understand Jesus to be teaching of consciousness after death we're opposed to the OT teaching on the creation and death of man. In Genesis we have the creation of man. God formed the body from the dust and breathed His breath/spirit into it and it became a living soul. In the book of Job Scripture says if God retrieves His breath/spirit all flesh will die. The book of Ecclesiastes says there is one breath/spirit in a man and that he is like the animals. We know from Genesis that that one breath/spirit is God's. There's nothing that teaches a consciousness after death. I just don't see Jesus overturning the whole of OT teaching on the subject, especially when that teaching doesn't even fit the context of what He's saying.

When Paul quotes Greek Poetry (Acts 17 at mars hill) or even a creation prophet (Titus 1:12) he is affirming what is true and what is known by all, even the Gentiles. Truth is truth where ever you find it.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

You and I will have to start another topic on the breath of God. It is a very interesting study. A study I rather enjoy. Perhaps next week in the Bible study forum? Should be fun!

But anyway, why would David write: Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.

Or:

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.

 

[stovebolts]

Nicodemus apparently thought one did ( and thats what many sectarians today think to escape obedience to the gospel) but Jesus set him straight on that.

Yes he did didn't he.

John 3:18-19 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

As Christians, when are we judged?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Butch5]

When Paul quotes Greek Poetry (Acts 17 at mars hill) or even a creation prophet (Titus 1:12) he is affirming what is true and what is known by all, even the Gentiles. Truth is truth where ever you find it.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

You and I will have to start another topic on the breath of God. It is a very interesting study. A study I rather enjoy. Perhaps next week in the Bible study forum? Should be fun!

But anyway, why would David write: Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.

Or:

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.

My point is just that He used something they understood. Regarding David's statements, in Psalm 139 he's just saying that there is no getting away from God's presence. Psalm16 is the words of Christ. But even that speaks of the grave not a disembodied spirit or consciousness. Whatever Jesus means it can't contradict what God has stated through the OT. In the OT a soul is "not" a disembodied consciousness it is a complete person. Scripture says that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. Soul is also used of the animals, they are called living souls.

 

[Webb]

In my judgment (no pun intended) a better rendition is not "judged" which the NASV uses but "condemned" which the KJV uses and also the ESV, which (the ESV) I believe is a good translation. Nonetheless, the words are from the same root. In the English the word 'judged" is most often used in the negative sense.

 

[Osgiliath]

Yes he did didn't he.

John 3:18-19 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

As Christians, when are we judged?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But Steve, that proves nothing relative to the question under consideration. It merely establishes the fact of judgment - not the process following judgment, nor exactly WHEN judgment occurs after one dies. After the resurrection, those who died still only died once. In fact, the Great White Throne Judgment doesn't occur until the Thousand Year Kingdom has expired, long after the first resurrection.


Also, we must remember the following, as it especially applies to the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man; due to the fact that Christ was still on Earth when the parable was given. No one has ever ascended to heaven:

• John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

This Scripture above from the lips of our Lord says it all. Many will use Ephesians 2:6 to try and get around this truth, but it is moot because:

• Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
  Ephesians 2:7 That in the 'AGES' to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Yes, we "are seated with Christ in the heavens" even now, but when we die we are dead until the resurrection. And without that resurrection then "they which are asleep in Christ are perished":

• 1 Corinthians 15:17 "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
  1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

And there is so much Scripture that must be ignored to get around this fact:

• John 5:28-29 - "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."
  
  
  [*]Matthew 27:52 - "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
  
  
  [*]Psalms 6:5 - "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
  
  
  [*]Daniel 12:13 - "As for you, go your way till the end. You will sleep, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance. "
  
  
  [*]John 11:11-14 - "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."
  
  
  [*]Mark 5:39 - "And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth."
  
  
  
  [*]1 Kings 2:10 - "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
  
  
  [*]2 Chronicles 9:31 - "And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead."
  
  
  [*]2 Chronicles 12:16 - "And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead."
  
  
  [*]2 Kings 24:6 - "So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead."

 

[Butch5]

But Steve, that proves nothing relative to the question under consideration. It merely establishes the fact of judgment - not the process following judgment, nor exactly WHEN judgment occurs after one dies. After the resurrection, those who died still only died once. In fact, the Great White Throne Judgment doesn't occur until the Thousand Year Kingdom has expired, long after the first resurrection.


Also, we must remember the following, as it especially applies to the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man; due to the fact that Christ was still on Earth when the parable was given. No one has ever ascended to heaven:

• John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

This Scripture above from the lips of our Lord says it all. Many will use Ephesians 2:6 to try and get around this truth, but it is moot because:

• Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
  Ephesians 2:7 That in the 'AGES' to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Yes, we "are seated with Christ in the heavens" even now, but when we die we are dead until the resurrection. And without that resurrection then "they which are asleep in Christ are perished":

• 1 Corinthians 15:17 "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
  1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

And there is so much Scripture that must be ignored to get around this fact:

• John 5:28-29 - "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."
  
  
• Matthew 27:52 - "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
  
  
• Psalms 6:5 - "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
  
  
• Daniel 12:13 - "As for you, go your way till the end. You will sleep, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance. "
  
  
• John 11:11-14 - "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."
  
  
• Mark 5:39 - "And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth."
  
  
  
• 1 Kings 2:10 - "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
  
  
• 2 Chronicles 9:31 - "And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead."
  
  
• 2 Chronicles 12:16 - "And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead."
  
  
• 2 Kings 24:6 - "So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead."

Good points. Another thing to note about Ephesians 2:6 is that "heavenly" is an adjective and it's in the neuter gender. It should be rendered "heavenly things" not places. Places is a noun.

 

[Osgiliath]

Good points. Another thing to note about Ephesians 2:6 is that "heavenly" is an adjective and it's in the neuter gender. It should be rendered "heavenly things" not places. Places is a noun.

This is true. I use the KJV in this forum because the JavaScript pop-up for Scripture in here uses the 1900 KJV, and most people use it (unfortunately). I'm guessing it's the same for you ;). I've been scourged by members in here for correcting bogus KJV translations (just yesterday actually), so beware :p

 

[Butch5]

This is true. I use the KJV in this forum because the JavaScript pop-up for Scripture in here uses the 1900 KJV, and most people use it (unfortunately). I'm guessing it's the same for you ;). I've been scourged by members in here for correcting bogus KJV translations (just yesterday actually), so beware :p

Yeah, I've been there. However, I actually like the KJV. I find it's about the only one that gets the "Seed" right in Genesis. Many translate it descendants instead of seed, however, Paul makes one of his most important arguments based on the "Seed" being singular.

 

[Shannon H]

Originally Posted by Osgiliath:

Jesus told us exactly how it works, so we need not guess:


Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is GIVEN UNTO YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them IT IS NOT GIVEN.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


Jesus said: "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

You are either GIVEN eyes to see by God, or you are NOT GIVEN eyes to see - there is no 'in-between' (fence). No amount of studying or formal college degrees can give one eyes to see, only God can GIVE that to someone.



Faith does not come by physically hearing, or physically seeing (studying, reading). Faith comes when we are GIVEN ears to hear with spiritual ears, and GIVEN eyes to see with spiritual eyes. That is how the Holy Spirit teaches:

1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely GIVEN TO US of God.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Christ's words "are spirit," and "the Holy Spirit teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual," and "the natural man receives not the things of the spirit... for they are foolishness to him and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned."

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life."

I say AMEN to that !

 

[Osgiliath]

Yeah, I've been. However, I actually like the KJV. I find it's about the only that gets the "Seed" right in Genesis. Many translate it descendants instead of seed, however, Paul makes one of his most important arguments based on the "Seed" being singular.

I enjoy it too. But many are not aware of the many, many really lousy translations that are in there. If you know where they are, that's a different story - and I agree that it is the most poetic and beautiful sounding translation. But our culture is already fixated on outward beauty as it is, so I prefer to know what the Word of God truly says, rather than how beautiful it sounds.

 

[Butch5]

I enjoy it too. But many are not aware of the many, many really lousy translations that are in there. If you know where they are, that's a different story - and I agree that it is the most poetic and beautiful sounding translation. But our culture is already fixated on outward beauty as it is, so I prefer to know what the Word of God truly says, rather than how beautiful it sounds.

I agree, I use several others also. However, when a question arises I look at the Greek text. I also use the Septuagint for OT study.

 

[n2thelight]

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.
The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place.

Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.


And the below verses from Revelation,should get rid of the soul sleep thingy

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord ,holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

 

[John 8:32]

I agree John 8:32. There are however, some who believe that paradise is in Hades. This is what I used to believe, that Hades had two parts, Abraham's bosom or Paradise and the place of torment. However, after an in depth study of this issue I came to realize that this completely contradicted the OT teaching on the creation and death of man.

Where is Paradise? Paul plainly tells us...

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is the third heaven where God's throne is.