What if HIV doesn't cause AIDS?

[Christ_empowered]

Please don't kick me off for being a "denialist" or whatever. I'm just saying that, as a former gay dude, I've always had my doubts. Anti-retrovirals clearly kill people. So, I did some reading and stumbled upon Peter Duesberg.

It goes like this: AIDS isn't caused by HIV. AIDS is a behavioral issue. Too many drugs, too much sex with too many people, the immune system shuts down.

Ever wondered why we've spent billion$ on HIV/AIDS and not gotten any results? What if the disease/syndrome is a behavioral issue, not a virus issue? What if the solution is to follow a (get ready for this...) Christian approach to sexuality? Moderation, monogamy, celibacy, no drugs, etc. ?

Just a random posting, to get some convo going. I'm posting a link to Duesberg's website. Keep in mind, this man works at UC Berkeley. He's not some random crack pot just making things up.

http://www.duesberg.com/

 

[Claudya]

- Are there people that have AIDS without a HIV infection?
- Are there people that get AIDS even though they live a lifestyle of moderation and celibacy?
- Do anti-retroviral drugs prevent an outbreak of AIDS even though they have HIV?
- By what biological mechanism can frequent sex shut down the immune system, if we leave infections aside?

 

[TOG]

It goes like this: AIDS isn't caused by HIV. AIDS is a behavioral issue. Too many drugs, too much sex with too many people, the immune system shuts down.

I see one big problem with this theory. There are people who have lived a moderate lifestyle with no drugs and been in a monogamous relationship who haev contracted aids when their spouse cheated on them. How can a spouses lifestyle give a person a disease, if there is no infection involved?

TOG
​

 

[TOG]

It goes like this: AIDS isn't caused by HIV. AIDS is a behavioral issue. Too many drugs, too much sex with too many people, the immune system shuts down.

I see one big problem with this theory. There are people who have lived a moderate lifestyle with no drugs and been in a monogamous relationship who have contracted aids when their spouse cheated on them. How can a spouses lifestyle give a person a disease, if there is no infection involved?

TOG
​

 

[Christ_empowered]

The way Duesberg's theory works, AIDS could be the result of the medications used to treat HIV/AIDS. Oxidative stress is the real problem, so high dose antioxidants would be called for, no matter how one contracted HIV.

 

[Sinthesis]

The way Duesberg's theory works, AIDS could be the result of the medications used to treat HIV/AIDS. Oxidative stress is the real problem, so high dose antioxidants would be called for, no matter how one contracted HIV.

How then did AIDS appear before the medications were developed to treat it?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Duesberg thinks the initial AIDS cases were caused by high level promiscuity and heavy drug use. The patients' immune systems shut down from abuse.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Just a random posting, to get some convo going. I'm posting a link to Duesberg's website. Keep in mind, this man works at UC Berkeley. He's not some random crack pot just making things up.

I thought all quacks came from Berkeley.
I wouldn't worry about it, Christ is in control of your life.

 

[Barbarian]

So far, Koch's Postulates have applied every time. So no, this is just a weird belief, not a serious theory.

Also, it's hard to explain how very promiscuous societies in the past have never experienced AIDS, if promiscuity causes it.

And yes, it doesn't explain how people who are not promiscuous got it from blood transfusions.

 

[Claudya]

I thought it was well known and accepted that the US government created Aids as a viral infection the late 60's early 70's? The documentation is out there.

If the internet says so then it must be true. :D

 

[Classik]

To the OP: then immorality will abound

 

[turnorburn]

So did HIV come from an SIV: I was always led to believe it started with man doing the O Key Doke with monkeys

It is now generally accepted that HIV is a descendant of a Simian Immunodeficiency Virus because certain strains of SIVs bear a very close resemblance to HIV-1 and HIV-2, the two types of HIV.

HIV-2 for example corresponds to SIVsm, a strain of the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus found in the sooty mangabey (also known as the White-collared monkey), which is indigenous to western Africa.

The more virulent, pandemic strain of HIV, namely HIV-1, was until recently more difficult to place. Until 1999, the closest counterpart that had been identified was SIVcpz, the SIV found in chimpanzees. However, this virus still had certain significant differences from HIV.

http://www.avert.org/origin-aids-hiv.htm

tob

 

[Vaccine]

What if the solution is to follow a (get ready for this...) Christian approach to sexuality? Moderation, monogamy, celibacy, no drugs, etc. ?

Even if Peter Duesberg isn't necessarily correct about the cause of AIDS, I agree with the point you're making about the christian approach, moderation, monogamy, etc. I'm sure the kind of life stye people have contributes to the improvement or detriment of their immune system.

 

[Christ_empowered]

The reason I agree with Duesbergy, kinda sorta (to the extent that I can process the info, lol), is because I read the Celia Farber book, Serious Adverse Events: An Uncensored History of AIDS (http://www.amazon.com/Serious-Adver...8&qid=1379263133&sr=8-1&keywords=celia+farber). Basically, Farber, a journalist (she' controversial because of her stance on HIV/AID) lay out all the info she unearthed researching HIV, AIDS, HIV testing, AIDS drugs, AIDS in Africa, etc. Its extremely well-researched.

AIDS drugs kill people. Cardio-toxicity, neuro-toxicity, all sorts of problems....liver failure seems to be a big issue. So, it raises the Q: if the drugs that suppress HIV are killing people, is HIV the real problem? Also, I find it interesting that the gay community is so heavily invested in the "Its the virus, stupid" line of thinking. If its a virus, then its not group-level behavior that's the problem. Its an individual problem--dude was promiscuous, did too many IV drugs, etc, that's why he's dead now.

Now, the Bible, when speaking of sodomy, tells us that the individuals involved receive in their bodies recompense for their sins. What if the real issue is immune-system destroying promiscuity and heavy drug use, both of which run rampant in the gay community, along with mental health "issues," suicides and suicide attempts, and violence in relationships? These are all what I' consider "markers" for behaviors/lifestyles that are most certainly "not of God."

I dunno...I guess I just think that HIV=AIDS is a myth that keeps going because the gay community benefits, the pharmaceutical companies benefit, and society as a whole gets to cruise along towards Sodom and Gomorrah because we don't have to/don't want to look at the very real **behavioral** issues that are involved. HIV=AIDS strikes me (an untrained, but intrigued, reader) as a construct that helps maintain the status quo.

 

[jasoncran]

Edward if aids was a type of wmd its very poor at being one. small pox and tb would be the easiest to get that job done.

 

[Lewis]

Please don't kick me off for being a "denialist" or whatever. I'm just saying that, as a former gay dude, I've always had my doubts. Anti-retrovirals clearly kill people. So, I did some reading and stumbled upon Peter Duesberg.

It goes like this: AIDS isn't caused by HIV. AIDS is a behavioral issue. Too many drugs, too much sex with too many people, the immune system shuts down.

Ever wondered why we've spent billion$ on HIV/AIDS and not gotten any results? What if the disease/syndrome is a behavioral issue, not a virus issue? What if the solution is to follow a (get ready for this...) Christian approach to sexuality? Moderation, monogamy, celibacy, no drugs, etc. ?

Just a random posting, to get some convo going. I'm posting a link to Duesberg's website. Keep in mind, this man works at UC Berkeley. He's not some random crack pot just making things up.

http://www.duesberg.com/

I am not buying that at all period.

 

[Claudya]

Now, the Bible, when speaking of sodomy, tells us that the individuals involved receive in their bodies recompense for their sins. What if the real issue is immune-system destroying promiscuity and heavy drug use, both of which run rampant in the gay community, along with mental health "issues," suicides and suicide attempts, and violence in relationships? These are all what I' consider "markers" for behaviors/lifestyles that are most certainly "not of God."

Then how is it possible that monogamous heterosexuals and young children have died from AIDS?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Duesberg would probably point out that there cases of AIDS w/o HIV. There's a fancy medical term for that, but it escapes me. Also, the vast majority of AIDS cases are 1) men and 2) homosexual men, at least in the US and other industrialized nations. Finally, you can't ignore exposure to anti-AIDS meds. These drugs are highly toxic, and Duesberg writes that they cause AIDS themselves. Young children who were exposed to these drugs, possibly before birth, will undoubtedly have problems.

 

[Claudya]

Well then I wonder why female homosexuals aren't getting the AIDS "punishment"? It makes no sense from the biblical viewpoint, but it does make sense we consider how male homosexual and hetero sexual sex is more suited to transmit deseases than lesbian sex.
And why didn't promoscuity and homosexuality lead to an immune deficiency syndrom for thousands of years, but suddenly does so, coincidentially at the same time when there's a virus around that attacks the immune defense system of its host's body? People have been sleeping around since the beginning of time, but AIDS has been around only since the 20th century.

Of course unprotected sex with frequently changing partners is a risk factor. I'm guessing heterosexual couples
Same goes for sharing drug injection needles with other drug users. However, it's not the sex or the drugs itself causing the desease, but those transmit the cause.

As for the exposure to Anti-AIDS meds: they have been around only since the mid 90s. People died of AIDS before that. And they had the HIvirus. Ever since the anti-retroviral drugs have been available the AIDS death rate as plummeted. Google it, the statistics are out there.
Of course those meds have side effects, but HIV is definitely fatal. Some HIV patients have survived 15 years on those drugs, while their live expectancy after an infection would have been only like 10 years untreated. And they are at a much better health than an untreated patient would be after such a long time, if alive at all. If someone dies on Anti-retroviral meds the question is whether they died because of the meds, or despite them. Medications may be more or less effective on individuals and different strains of the virus. There may be negative effects of insufficient "patient compliance" (i.e. not taking ht medication because of forgetfulness or adverse side effects). People already weakened from their desease when they start taking medication may die despite medication from the damage already done to their body.
And even if the medication does have a slim chance of killing a patient - AIDS has a very good chance of killing the patient. AIDS is definitely fatal.

 

[Sinthesis]

I wonder if those who believe HIV doesn't cause AIDS would be willing to test their theory by infecting themselves with the virus? Surely they must believe that through their own moral behavior and refusal of anti-AIDS medication they would never develop the disease.