What Is Baptism?

[Jim Parker]

I maintain it is us outwardly confirming the faith in us.

Why do you not maintain it is what Paul said it is?

 

[Nathan]

Why do you not maintain it is what Paul said it is?

Specifically?

 

[Jim Parker]

Translations of the text is where we mistake what Jesus said. He did not tell the disciples to baptize in the authority of the Three, rather, He told them to baptize into the name of the three.

COnsider:
Numbers 6:22-27 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: “Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, ‘This is the way you shall bless the children of Israel. Say to them: “The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.” ’
“So they shall put My name on the children of Israel, and I will bless them.”

The priests of Moses’ time, who were Aaron’s sons, used those exact words, that “formula” without deviation or substitution, or foreshortening, to “put God’s name on the Children of Israel."

By doing so they marked the children of Israel spiritually (or sacramentally) with the Name of God.

Note that the name “the LORD” is used three times.

Jesus gave His royal priesthood of believers, His apostles, elders, overseers, deacons, and priesthood of believers, the name of God to use in the baptism of believers.

But this time, in the Baptism commanded by Jesus, the One God in Trinity is revealed as the name to “put on” believers. And that name is: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And, just like the “formula” that Aaron and his sons were required to use had to be said exactly as it was given, so the New Testament priesthood of believers is to use the exact words which God the Logos, Jesus, gave to His disciples.

Difference being, one is primarily directed at what the disciples were to do - the other is what it does to the ones being baptized. We must realize the difference between "in" and "into".

Good point.

 

[Nathan]

COnsider:
Numbers 6:22-27 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: “Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, ‘This is the way you shall bless the children of Israel. Say to them: “The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.” ’
“So they shall put My name on the children of Israel, and I will bless them.”

The priests of Moses’ time, who were Aaron’s sons, used those exact words, that “formula” without deviation or substitution, or foreshortening, to “put God’s name on the Children of Israel."

By doing so they marked the children of Israel spiritually (or sacramentally) with the Name of God.

Note that the name “the LORD” is used three times.

Jesus gave His royal priesthood of believers, His apostles, elders, overseers, deacons, and priesthood of believers, the name of God to use in the baptism of believers.

But this time, in the Baptism commanded by Jesus, the One God in Trinity is revealed as the name to “put on” believers. And that name is: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And, just like the “formula” that Aaron and his sons were required to use had to be said exactly as it was given, so the New Testament priesthood of believers is to use the exact words which God the Logos, Jesus, gave to His disciples.

Good point.

You also make a good point, I would just tweak it a little.

They were not to "put on", but rather "put into". The disciples that is.

That's how we can understand the significant difference between baptism in water, and baptism into the Godhead - which is not a formula but a transforming process.

 

[Jim Parker]

Specifically?

Rom 6:3-7
Or do you not know
that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,
that
just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
knowing this;
that our old man was crucified with Him,
that the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
For he who has died has been freed from sin.

and Gal 3:26-27

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That's what Paul said.
I've posted the Romans passage for you before and for others many times.

I am constantly surprised that many believers just don't seem to care what scripture says baptism is!

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

That's how we can understand the significant difference between baptism in water, and baptism into the Godhead - which is not a formula but a transforming process.

Please cite scriptural support for "Baptism into the Godhead" and clarify what you mean by baptism as a "transforming process."

 

[dirtfarmer]

I agree with you really. Water baptism is definitely something we find done however. I maintain it is us outwardly confirming the faith in us.

Translations of the text is where we mistake what Jesus said. He did not tell the disciples to baptize in the authority of the Three, rather, He told them to baptize into the name of the three.

Difference being, one is primarily directed at what the disciples were to do - the other is what it does to the ones being baptized. We must realize the difference between "in" and "into".

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

To whom is "water baptism" an outwardly confirming of faith?". Only those that were present at that time and most of those are already saved. Would that be a better confirmation of our faith than our daily life? It is my belief that the confirmation of our faith is not to believers but to a lost and dying world. Those that we use to run with in the world will see a difference in our life after salvation and ask what happened to us, then we have an opportunity to tell them about our salvation. This is the greater witness than to those that we are churched with. Church is too ritualized so that we can have praise from those that we are churched with rather than giving Christ the glory for what he has accomplished for us.

There are those that teach foot washing literally. It that an outward confirmation of faith also? We are told that faith is revealed from faith unto faith. It is not what we do in the flesh and it's power but what the Spirit accomplishes through us when we yield to Him. When we are asked, "Why do you do the things that you do"; then we have an eager listener.

 

[Nathan]

Rom 6:3-7
Or do you not know
that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,
that
just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
knowing this;
that our old man was crucified with Him,
that the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
For he who has died has been freed from sin.

and Gal 3:26-27

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That's what Paul said.
I've posted the Romans passage for you before and for others many times.

I am constantly surprised that many believers just don't seem to care what scripture says baptism is!

iakov the fool

I'm not ignorant of your jabs - :wink

Paul is not saying that physical baptism places us physically into Christ death - obviously. So that means there is only one other option correct?

Have we physically put on Christ, the same as physically being baptized?

Seems to me that we often try to connect the spiritual with the carnal. Did the animal sacrifices 'save' the people of the Old Testament - taking away their sin? I venture to say not.

Heb 10:4
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins

It was a representation of Christ and His sacrifice - which would/does take away sins. Water baptism is no different. It represents what the Spirit does to us.

1Co 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body[which is Christ]—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

To whom is "water baptism" an outwardly confirming of faith?". Only those that were present at that time and most of those are already saved. Would that be a better confirmation of our faith than our daily life? It is my belief that the confirmation of our faith is not to believers but to a lost and dying world. Those that we use to run with in the world will see a difference in our life after salvation and ask what happened to us, then we have an opportunity to tell them about our salvation. This is the greater witness than to those that we are churched with. Church is too ritualized so that we can have praise from those that we are churched with rather than giving Christ the glory for what he has accomplished for us.

There are those that teach foot washing literally. It that an outward confirmation of faith also? We are told that faith is revealed from faith unto faith. It is not what we do in the flesh and it's power but what the Spirit accomplishes through us when we yield to Him. When we are asked, "Why do you do the things that you do"; then we have an eager listener.

It is an outward confirmation for ourselves - to God. Much in the same way circumcision was for the Old Testament - but do not think I mean that water baptism replaces circumcision, I am not saying that. In the way circumcision was a somewhat personal thing and physical, so is water baptism. Circumcision was not done to be 'shown around', and certainly not a 'public profession' -

1Pe 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is clear that water baptism is a personal thing - it is between you and God. Does that mean it cannot be done publicly? No, I think its great to do publicly. There is something very nice about seeing someone baptized. There is nothing wrong with showing your faith, and others seeing it, through the baptism in water.

Your correct, when we take baptism and twist it up, it becomes either something super spiritual or completely ritualistic.

When we see that baptism is just a word to describe something that is immersed into something else - then we can start to apply the word in its correct form - in context - and see what was taught about it.

 

[chessman]

Isa 21:4 LEB My mind staggers; fear terrifies me; the twilight I desired brought me fear.

Isa 21:4 NASB My mind reels, horror overwhelms me; The twilight I longed for has been turned for me into trembling.

The Hebrew is baath, Phonetic Spelling: (baw-ath'), Short Definition: terrify
The LXX (greek translation of this verse) is... you guessed it ...baptize).

4 ἡ καρδία μου πλανᾶται, καὶ ἡ ἀνομία με βαπτίζει, ἡ ψυχή μου ἐφέστηκεν εἰς φόβον

 

[dirtfarmer]

It is an outward confirmation for ourselves - to God. Much in the same way circumcision was for the Old Testament - but do not think I mean that water baptism replaces circumcision, I am not saying that. In the way circumcision was a somewhat personal thing and physical, so is water baptism. Circumcision was not done to be 'shown around', and certainly not a 'public profession' -

1Pe 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is clear that water baptism is a personal thing - it is between you and God. Does that mean it cannot be done publicly? No, I think its great to do publicly. There is something very nice about seeing someone baptized. There is nothing wrong with showing your faith, and others seeing it, through the baptism in water.

Your correct, when we take baptism and twist it up, it becomes either something super spiritual or completely ritualistic.

When we see that baptism is just a word to describe something that is immersed into something else - then we can start to apply the word in its correct form - in context - and see what was taught about it.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

So would it be correct to say that when I dived or dove (which ever one you prefer) at the swimming pool, I was baptized: because I was immersed into the water.

It is my belief that since God looks on our heart, which is between God and me, that water baptism is for man to see and not God. So, since man can see a difference when we are "baptized by the Spirit" into the body of Christ, that testimony to the world that we live in is far superior to water baptism and not just the congregation that we attend.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Isa 21:4 LEB My mind staggers; fear terrifies me; the twilight I desired brought me fear.

Isa 21:4 NASB My mind reels, horror overwhelms me; The twilight I longed for has been turned for me into trembling.

The Hebrew is baath, Phonetic Spelling: (baw-ath'), Short Definition: terrify
The LXX (greek translation of this verse) is... you guessed it ...baptize).

4 ἡ καρδία μου πλανᾶται, καὶ ἡ ἀνομία με βαπτίζει, ἡ ψυχή μου ἐφέστηκεν εἰς φόβον

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

I do not read Hebrew, but I understand that "overwhelms" is a good definition of "Baath", or the greek translation. It is just as "ecclesia" is an assembly of citizens that was later translated "Church". The greek word "kuriakos" is the actual word that translates into "Church"

Baptize is a transliteration of "baptizo" not a translation.

 

[chessman]

I do not read Hebrew, but I understand that "overwhelms" is a good definition of "Baath",

Me either. I just read from the people that do.

But yes, my 'baptism' was quite "overwhelming" and "terrifying". Yet, I'm not afraid of the water one bit (or the sharks swimming in it with me).

 

[dirtfarmer]

Me either. I just read from the people that do.

But yes, my 'baptism' was quite "overwhelming" and "terrifying". Yet, I'm not afraid of the water one bit (or the sharks swimming in it with me).

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

If I understand "baptism"; then, if a shark had eaten you while you were under the water, you would not have been resurrected to walk a new life, would you have been saved?

 

[chessman]

if a shark had eaten you while you were under the water, you would not have been resurrected to walk a new life, would you have been saved?

I was not baptized with sharks. I was being tongue in check. Just saying my initial baptism (immersion into Christ) was terrifying and overwhelming way before I ever was dunked in a baptistery filled with H2O.

I was saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit while high'n dry, right there in the pew.

I followed it up with a dunking, of course as commanded, but it wasn't terrifying or overwhelming.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm not ignorant of your jabs - :wink

????????
I am totally ignorant of what ever it is you are talking about.

Paul is not saying that physical baptism places us physically into Christ death - obviously. So that means there is only one other option correct?

Of course it's not physical.
What do you think the "only one other option " is?

I believe that we are spiritually united with Christ in his death and resurrection.
And "spiritually united" is a reality, not some philosophical speculation or some warm fuzzy nonsense.
Paul meant exactly what he said.

Seems to me that we often try to connect the spiritual with the carnal.

Your spirit and your body are not two separate beings.

Did the animal sacrifices 'save' the people of the Old Testament - taking away their sin? I venture to say not.

That's an entirely different subject with no relevance to this discussion.
This thread is about baptism.

Paul said:
In baptism:
(1) we are united to Christ in his death
(2) we are united to Christ in His resurrection
(3) we are raised to new life
(4) our "old man" (the "flesh") was crucified with Christ
(5) our "body of sin" was done away with
(6) we are no longer slaves to sin
(7) if we were baptized into Christ we have "put on" Christ

That's what scripture says.
What scripture does NOT say is anything about baptism being some kind of public statement of faith.


iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

So would it be correct to say that when I dived or dove (which ever one you prefer) at the swimming pool, I was baptized: because I was immersed into the water.

It is my belief that since God looks on our heart, which is between God and me, that water baptism is for man to see and not God. So, since man can see a difference when we are "baptized by the Spirit" into the body of Christ, that testimony to the world that we live in is far superior to water baptism and not just the congregation that we attend.

Actually, I would say no on the swimming pool. The reason why we don't use that Greek word today for things such as that, is because baptism is done for a reason. More specifically, for a transformation. Diving into a pool of water does not accomplish that.

If you go back and read the passage from Peter you will see it is about the heart. That is why we are baptized in water. It's an appeal of our conscience(the heart of man) to God.

If you look at the story of Philip and the ethiopian, Acts 8, you see it was not a fanfare. The Ethiopian was even the one who brought it up. It was his conscience, responding to Gods good news, that made him desire baptism. As far as we know there were only 3 people there.

 

[Nathan]

????????
I am totally ignorant of what ever it is you are talking about.

Of course it's not physical.
What do you think the "only one other option " is?

I believe that we are spiritually united with Christ in his death and resurrection.
And "spiritually united" is a reality, not some philosophical speculation or some warm fuzzy nonsense.
Paul meant exactly what he said.

Your spirit and your body are not two separate beings.

That's an entirely different subject with no relevance to this discussion.
This thread is about baptism.

Paul said:
In baptism:
(1) we are united to Christ in his death
(2) we are united to Christ in His resurrection
(3) we are raised to new life
(4) our "old man" (the "flesh") was crucified with Christ
(5) our "body of sin" was done away with
(6) we are no longer slaves to sin
(7) if we were baptized into Christ we have "put on" Christ

That's what scripture says.
What scripture does NOT say is anything about baptism being some kind of public statement of faith.


iakov the fool

Do you fully read all posts of a person before posting? Did I state that water baptism was just a public statement of faith?

The subject of sin and sacrifice is not totally different than baptism. If you would read it as I posted it, you would see that just as one thing foreshadowed the other, so too does water baptism foreshadow our baptism into Christ.

When we go under the water, when being baptized in physical water, it does not;

(1) we are united to Christ in his death
(2) we are united to Christ in His resurrection
(3) we are raised to new life
(4) our "old man" (the "flesh") was crucified with Christ
(5) our "body of sin" was done away with
(6) we are no longer slaves to sin
(7) if we were baptized into Christ we have "put on" Christ

The above things you posted is when we are baptized by the Spirit.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Actually, I would say no on the swimming pool. The reason why we don't use that Greek word today for things such as that, is because baptism is done for a reason. More specifically, for a transformation. Diving into a pool of water does not accomplish that.

If you go back and read the passage from Peter you will see it is about the heart. That is why we are baptized in water. It's an appeal of our conscience(the heart of man) to God.

If you look at the story of Philip and the ethiopian, Acts 8, you see it was not a fanfare. The Ethiopian was even the one who brought it up. It was his conscience, responding to Gods good news, that made him desire baptism. As far as we know there were only 3 people there.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

So, are you making the statement that there is no "transformation" without water baptism? Also, that unless we are water baptized our conscience can not "appeal" to God?

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

So, are you making the statement that there is no "transformation" without water baptism? Also, that unless we are water baptized our conscience can not "appeal" to God?

No, I'm saying transformation is not dependent on physical water.

I think our conscience can appeal to God without water baptism. However, it is definitely one of those things that can help understanding. I fully believe once you understand baptism, then water baptism is a joyful and desired thing. I believe that is what you see with the Ethiopian, and when Peter asked if water could be withheld from the recent recipients of the Spirit in Acts 10.

Water baptism is a real thing and was done. We don't see it as something people were convinced to do, rather it was something desired by people, even when they were not true converts.