What Is Baptism?

[Jim Parker]

Can I baptise myself in water?

I don't believe that's ever been done.
I don't believe you can as long as there is someone available to do it.

iakov the fool

 

[Corn Pop]

I don't believe that's ever been done.
I don't believe you can as long as there is someone available to do it.

iakov the fool

I have a solution. I ask Jesus to place his hands on my head then i move my head under the water. Then i know my baptism is authentic.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a solution. I ask Jesus to place his hands on my head then i move my head under the water. Then i know my baptism is authentic.

What do you mean Kiwidan? We can't baptize ourselves. It was the Apostles, and those who came after them, that baptized persons.

Are you saying baptism is not necessary?

 

[GodsGrace]

TO ALL IN THIS THREAD​

Here's what Paul said we were doing when we got baptized: Rom 6:3-4 (RSV)

Do you not know that
all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death,
so that
as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
we too might walk in newness of life.

I don't know why so many churches don't teach what the Bible teaches about Baptism.

Baptism is NOT a "public confession of faith in Jesus Christ."
The way to show the world that the "Old man" had died and the "new man" had risen is to ACT LIKE we are the "New, risen, man" who has "put on Christ."
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

We are baptized for a specific purpose which the Bible spells out in so many words.

Rom 6:5-7
For if
we have been united with him in a death like his,
we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
We know that
our old self was crucified with him
so that the sinful body might be destroyed,
and
we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
For he who has died is freed from sin.

And, according to the Bible, THAT why we are Baptized.

iakov the fool

Hi Jim,

I like to understand things.

I understand everything Jesus told us to do.
The beatitudes are concerning an attitude that those of the Kingdom (that starts here on earth) are to have.
These attitudes are for here right now, and also will be compensated later on in heaven. However, they are also for here: The Kingdom can be ours, we will be comforted, WE shall inherit the new earth, etc.

He also said to DO things. What we would call Works, much to the chagrin of many. So I understand why we do works: We take care of our family and those around us, we try to feed the poor, clothe the needy, we try to be nice to everyone, etc.

I've never understood WHY we need to be baptized. Do we just do it because Jesus said to? It's not just a symbol, I agree with you there. It CAN be also an outer sign of an inner change. But it's much more than that.

My favorite scripture for baptism is one you've posted:
Romans 6:1-11

So, if this is the only reason we get baptized, then it would seem that it IS just a symbol. You see? So there has to be more.

For instance, do we receive the Holy Spirit at salvation, but then are INDWELT by the Holy Spirit as baptism?

Do people "feel" different after batpism?

John the Baptist prepared for the baptism of Jesus.

This would be a good place to say that Mathew 28:19 is the FORM by which we must be baptized,
Acts 2:38 is the TYPE of baptism. (that of Jesus and not that of John).

Just trying to get some more input...

 

[Corn Pop]

What do you mean Kiwidan? We can't baptize ourselves. It was the Apostles, and those who came after them, that baptized persons.

Are you saying baptism is not necessary?

I was kind of having a laugh but serious at the same time. Why can't I just ask Jesus directly to baptise me and just dunk my head in water knowing Jesus is with me. See, thats authentic baptism, and on the last day I have a fair reason to give account to God, I had faith Jesus was with me and baptised me, I can't get more faithful than that.

And my other account I would give to God is that only God can be trusted so i only want baptism from God, he must accept my faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was kind of having a laugh but serious at the same time. Why can't I just ask Jesus directly to baptise me and just dunk my head in water knowing Jesus is with me. See, thats authentic baptism, and on the last day I have a fair reason to give account to God, I had faith Jesus was with me and baptised me, I can't get more faithful than that.

And my other account I would give to God is that only God can be trusted so i only want baptism from God, he must accept my faith.

Yes, but it was a command of Jesus.
Why would Jesus command it if we didn't have to do it?
And why do you think He commanded to do this?
He told the APOSTLES to go and preach and baptize in Mathew 28:19.
He told Nicodemus we must be born of water and of spirit.
Did Jesus mean the water of childbirth (the first birth) OR did He mean baptism??

Why did He tell the woman at the well that if she drank from HIS water, she would never thirst again.
Did He mean baptism?

I'll be back later...

 

[Nathan]

Yes, but it was a command of Jesus.
Why would Jesus command it if we didn't have to do it?
And why do you think He commanded to do this?
He told the APOSTLES to go and preach and baptize in Mathew 28:19.
He told Nicodemus we must be born of water and of spirit.
Did Jesus mean the water of childbirth (the first birth) OR did He mean baptism??

Why did He tell the woman at the well that if she drank from HIS water, she would never thirst again.
Did He mean baptism?

I'll be back later...

I'll see your questions, and raise you a few more.

Why did Jesus say to baptize in the "name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit" - and Peter said to be baptized in the "name of Jesus Christ" - and another time it is said people are baptized in the "name of the Lord Jesus"(Acts 8)?

Also, we can see clearly that being dunked in water can be pointless(obviously from what we see around us in churches today).

Act 8:9-24
But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Here was a man who believed, clearly that of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, was baptized(water) - and yet none of them received the Spirit of God at that time. Why?

 

[twinc]

I'll see your questions, and raise you a few more.

Why did Jesus say to baptize in the "name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit" - and Peter said to be baptized in the "name of Jesus Christ" - and another time it is said people are baptized in the "name of the Lord Jesus"(Acts 8)?

Also, we can see clearly that being dunked in water can be pointless(obviously from what we see around us in churches today).

Act 8:9-24
But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Here was a man who believed, clearly that of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, was baptized(water) - and yet none of them received the Spirit of God at that time. Why?

so what do we have here, after this wild goose chase and going round and round in circles, except that unlike odd individuals the Church has the right and authority to update and adapt - twinc

 

[Nathan]

so what do we have here, after this wild goose chase and going round and round in circles, except that unlike odd individuals the Church has the right and authority to update and adapt - twinc

Is there a different way, to say, what you said?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll see your questions, and raise you a few more.

Why did Jesus say to baptize in the "name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit" - and Peter said to be baptized in the "name of Jesus Christ" - and another time it is said people are baptized in the "name of the Lord Jesus"(Acts 8)?

Also, we can see clearly that being dunked in water can be pointless(obviously from what we see around us in churches today).

Act 8:9-24
But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Here was a man who believed, clearly that of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, was baptized(water) - and yet none of them received the Spirit of God at that time. Why?

Hi Nathan,
The answer to your first question is in my post no. 144, down at the end just before the closing sentence.
To be baptized in the name of The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit is the FORM by which we are to be baptized. This is what has to be said when being baptized.

Being baptized in the name of Jesus, is a TYPE of baptism. There is the baptism of John and there is the baptism of Jesus.

One is by water and repentance (John) and one is by water and the Holy Spirit (Jesus).

And yes, it can be pointless if the person does not believe. In fact Wrg1405 post no. 115 he tells us of how he refused to baptise someone in his church and it did turn out that the person did not believe.
Baptism is not magic, perhaps it is what I've mentioned before, a commitment --- since one must be a believer already in order to be baptized.

Then you posted Acts 8:9-24 and asked WHY the Samarians had not received the Holy Spirit.

Here was a man who believed, clearly that of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, was baptized(water) - and yet none of them received the Spirit of God at that time. Why?

What I know is that Peter and John went to Samaria from Jerusalem to lay hands on the new believers there. They seem to already be saved and had received water baptism of Jesus' name type.
So the elders had to lay hands on the believers.

In the O.P. I had said that there were 3 types of baptism:
1. Baptism of conversion - spiritual
2. Water baptism: John's and Jesus'
3. Baptism of fire (Holy Spirit)

I would suppose that Peter and John gave the believers the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
But I'm not sure of the correct answer.

Please comment.

 

[GodsGrace]

so what do we have here, after this wild goose chase and going round and round in circles, except that unlike odd individuals the Church has the right and authority to update and adapt - twinc

That particular church likes to use the terms "update" and "adapt" so that they don't have to use the word
"change".

Change is a difficult word to say when all that it says is supposed to be infallible when stated ex-cathedra.
So if it's infallible, how could it possibly change??

So instead this church likes to say that it has updated revelation.
I have a big problem with this. If a doctrine can be changed, ever --- how do we know they are NOW telling us the correct doctrine? They were "wrong" before, how do we know they're not wrong now??

It seems they've been wrong all along regarding remarried couples. What else is wrong?

And while we're here. let's get to why confession exists.

People were batptized and all their sins were forgiven up to that point.
They were supposed to then change their lives and not sin anymore. But, unfortunately, this did not happen. Persons, even after baptism, kept sinning.

So the problem became How To Deal With Sin AFTER baptism???
Thus we have confession. Which changed a lot over the years. From acceptance into the new religion, to public, to private...

Changes always make me wonder WHICH DOCTRINE is correct... the old one, the new one?

They tell me no doctrine has changed.
LOL
It has.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,
The answer to your first question is in my post no. 144, down at the end just before the closing sentence.
To be baptized in the name of The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit is the FORM by which we are to be baptized. This is what has to be said when being baptized.

Being baptized in the name of Jesus, is a TYPE of baptism. There is the baptism of John and there is the baptism of Jesus.

One is by water and repentance (John) and one is by water and the Holy Spirit (Jesus).

And yes, it can be pointless if the person does not believe. In fact Wrg1405 post no. 115 he tells us of how he refused to baptise someone in his church and it did turn out that the person did not believe.
Baptism is not magic, perhaps it is what I've mentioned before, a commitment --- since one must be a believer already in order to be baptized.

Then you posted Acts 8:9-24 and asked WHY the Samarians had not received the Holy Spirit.

Here was a man who believed, clearly that of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, was baptized(water) - and yet none of them received the Spirit of God at that time. Why?

What I know is that Peter and John went to Samaria from Jerusalem to lay hands on the new believers there. They seem to already be saved and had received water baptism of Jesus' name type.
So the elders had to lay hands on the believers.

In the O.P. I had said that there were 3 types of baptism:
1. Baptism of conversion - spiritual
2. Water baptism: John's and Jesus'
3. Baptism of fire (Holy Spirit)

I would suppose that Peter and John gave the believers the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
But I'm not sure of the correct answer.

Please comment.

Interesting. Why do you feel like it is what you have to say while baptizing someone? Would that put limitations on it? Maybe turn it into a ritual?

Acts 8 is speaking of a specific man who believed and was baptized, not Samarians in general. Later on we read he tried to 'buy' the Holy Spirit and was rebuked for being in the bond of iniquity. Peter told him to repent and pray to the Lord for forgiveness. Interesting.

I am pretty sure that God is who baptizes in the Spirit.

 

[Jim Parker]

Romans 6:1-11
So, if this is the only reason we get baptized, then it would seem that it IS just a symbol. You see?

YES!!!
Baptism is not a "just a symbol." (In the manner which the word "symbol" is commonly used)
It is a reality.
We are IN REALITY united with Christ in His death and burial.
We are IN REALITY united with Him in his resurrection to new life. (Ro 6:5)
(Unless one sees the resurrection also as "symbolic.")
In Baptism we are IN REALITY "born again of water." (John 3:5)

There is a tendency to use the words "symbol" and "spiritual" in a secular manner to mean that the thing we are discussing is not a reality. (Like Peter Pan is a "symbol" of our desire to remain a child without responsibilities and just having fun all day.)
But, unless there is a reality, a symbol has no meaning whatsoever. For example, a national flag is either the symbol of a real nation or a child's toy and there is no such thing as a nation.

Also, things that are "spiritual" are not imaginary or some Platonic ideal.
They are a spiritual reality as opposed to a physical reality.

If "spiritual" does not refer to reality then there really is no Holy Spirit. ( not a good conclusion )

It seems to me that one of the "wiles of the devil" is the clandestine insertion of secular concepts into Christian Biblical truth.
The idea of a "symbol" as an act or artifact which represents an idea but not a reality is one such secular concept.
The realities of God's dealing with mankind which have been consistently attacked by claiming that they are "only symbols" include: the creation, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, miracles, the resurrection, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Eucharist being only a "symbol" of Christ's body and blood, etc.

By getting people to think of these realities as "only symbols", the devil hopes slowly to remove faith in Christ from the Church and he has succeeded in some places.

It is what the devil has always done. It was the very first thing he did to bring death to mankind.
He said, "Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” (Gen 3:1)
In other words, "That's not really what God's word means." or "You don't really believe that, do you?"

The devil isn't stupid; he sticks with what works.
But neither is he creative. If you know what to look for, you'll catch him every time.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

Interesting. Why do you feel like it is what you have to say while baptizing someone? Would that put limitations on it? Maybe turn it into a ritual?

Acts 8 is speaking of a specific man who believed and was baptized, not Samarians in general. Later on we read he tried to 'buy' the Holy Spirit and was rebuked for being in the bond of iniquity. Peter told him to repent and pray to the Lord for forgiveness. Interesting.

I am pretty sure that God is who baptizes in the Spirit.

Of course you have to say the correct words when baptizing!
Do you think you could say whatever you want to?

Jesus said in Mathew 28:19 to baptize in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
So those are the words to be used.

Acts 8. You're speaking of Simon.

I don't understand the question you were asking then...

 

[Jim Parker]

Here was a man who believed, clearly that of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, was baptized(water) - and yet none of them received the Spirit of God at that time. Why?

Simon Magus did not receive the Holy Spirit because he was baptized for the wrong reasons; he thought the Holy Spirit was a "power" by which he would be able to make money by healing and casting out demons and raising the dead. (And for this reason, "selling the Gospel" is called "Simony.") He was a magician ( a real one) and saw that Peter had more power than he could ever hope for by his own methods and wanted what he thought Peter has: bigger magic.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Why do you feel like it is what you have to say while baptizing someone?

Because that's what Jesus said to do.

Would that put limitations on it?

Because that's what Jesus said to do.

Maybe turn it into a ritual?

It only becomes a ritual if the baptizer or the baptized believes it is a ritual. In other words, if one or the other (or the whole congregation) doesn't believe that what he is doing is what the Bible says he is doing, then it becomes a ritual.
That's what happens in church where they teach that being baptized is just a public demonstration of faith in Jesus. That view actually does make baptism a ritual not unlike the ones performed on a pledges who join a fraternity.

 

[GodsGrace]

YES!!!
Baptism is not a "just a symbol." (In the manner which the word "symbol" is commonly used)
It is a reality.
We are IN REALITY united with Christ in His death and burial.
We are IN REALITY united with Him in his resurrection to new life. (Ro 6:5)
(Unless one sees the resurrection also as "symbolic.")
In Baptism we are IN REALITY "born again of water." (John 3:5)

There is a tendency to use the words "symbol" and "spiritual" in a secular manner to mean that the thing we are discussing is not a reality. (Like Peter Pan is a "symbol" of our desire to remain a child without responsibilities and just having fun all day.)
But, unless there is a reality, a symbol has no meaning whatsoever. For example, a national flag is either the symbol of a real nation or a child's toy and there is no such thing as a nation.

Also, things that are "spiritual" are not imaginary or some Platonic ideal.
They are a spiritual reality as opposed to a physical reality.

If "spiritual" does not refer to reality then there really is no Holy Spirit. ( not a good conclusion )

It seems to me that one of the "wiles of the devil" is the clandestine insertion of secular concepts into Christian Biblical truth.
The idea of a "symbol" as an act or artifact which represents an idea but not a reality is one such secular concept.
The realities of God's dealing with mankind which have been consistently attacked by claiming that they are "only symbols" include: the creation, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, miracles, the resurrection, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Eucharist being only a "symbol" of Christ's body and blood, etc.

By getting people to think of these realities as "only symbols", the devil hopes slowly to remove faith in Christ from the Church and he has succeeded in some places.

It is what the devil has always done. It was the very first thing he did to bring death to mankind.
He said, "Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” (Gen 3:1)
In other words, "That's not really what God's word means." or "You don't really believe that, do you?"

The devil isn't stupid; he sticks with what works.
But neither is he creative. If you know what to look for, you'll catch him every time.

iakov the fool

Hi Jim,

Thanks for this post!
It made me realize something.
There is no magic in baptism, but there is a SPIRITUAL REALITY involved with it.

I like very much what you said here:

We are IN REALITY united with Christ in His death and burial.
We are IN REALITY united with Him in his resurrection to new life. (Ro 6:5)
(Unless one sees the resurrection also as "symbolic.")
In Baptism we are IN REALITY "born again of water." (John 3:5)

So just as there is physical reality, baptism is a SPIRITUAL REALITY.
Our SPIRIT dies with Christ when going into the water. We are baptized into His death. We are buried with Him through baptism into death. If we are united with Him in His death, we will also be united with Him in His resurrection. So we will live with Him and will be alive to God IN Christ.
(from Romans 6:1-13)

Since we are already saved when being baptized, our spirit (recd at salvation) both dies and is born again from above.

I believe this is the best I'll understand it -- much like the Trinity cannot really be fully understood but can only be accepted.

It is illuminating, however.

And I agree about satan: If it's ONLY a symbol, how could it have any real importance??!!

 

[Corn Pop]

Scriptures shows The Holy Spirit was given without water baptism, but then other scriptures and Jesus say you must be born of Water and the Spirit.

Maybe there is both material and spiritual water symbolic he is talking about and either or is good enough.

Baptised in spiritual water. The thief on the cross had no water so maybe he just got spiritual water baptism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scriptures shows The Holy Spirit was given without water baptism, but then other scriptures and Jesus say you must be born of Water and the Spirit.

Maybe there is both material and spiritual water symbolic he is talking about and either or is good enough.

Baptised in spiritual water. The thief on the cross had no water so maybe he just got spiritual water baptism.

Kiwidan,

I do agree with Jim Parker that baptism CAN also be a sign of an inner change BUT IT IS MUCH MORE.
If Jesus said to do it, He must have felt it was important. He never said to do something that was not important. And we should pay heed to what He told us to do, even if we don't fully understand why.

I do however, believe in "spiritual baptism". The thief on the cross would be one example.
Another would be if someone became born again, accepted Jesus, salvation, or however you want to say it, and then died on their way to somewhere. Certainly they would receive spiritual baptism.

However, if one has the possibility, water baptism should be desired and understood as much as possible, precisely because Jesus commanded it.

 

[Corn Pop]

Kiwidan,

I do agree with Jim Parker that baptism CAN also be a sign of an inner change BUT IT IS MUCH MORE.
If Jesus said to do it, He must have felt it was important. He never said to do something that was not important. And we should pay heed to what He told us to do, even if we don't fully understand why.

I do however, believe in "spiritual baptism". The thief on the cross would be one example.
Another would be if someone became born again, accepted Jesus, salvation, or however you want to say it, and then died on their way to somewhere. Certainly they would receive spiritual baptism.

However, if one has the possibility, water baptism should be desired and understood as much as possible, precisely because Jesus commanded it.

Does anyone know the reason why Paul thanked God he didn't baptise anymore people. Surely he had the Apostleship to baptise.