What is "GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS"

[Mitspa]

When we understand that Gods righteousness is on our side against satan, and against our own sin, which is in the flesh of all men.

When we realize that we are righteous in Jesus Christ, we relize that we are not slaves to sin anymore. We do not have to dance to sins tune. We have been set free. We have been devilered. we have been washed in the Blood. We have been made clean. We have been made righteous!

Without this truth, no man can attain the promises of the scriptures. For everything in the Kingdom is given by faith, no one can earn any part.

God has this funny way about Him? He is God, and He decides what is righteous and what is not! He has decided that the very best efforts of the very best man, are nothing!

He has decided that Only His Son has every worked any Righteous acts upon this world. He has decided that it IS RIGHTEOUS TO MAKE THE SINNER RIGHTEOUS, BY FAITH IN HIS SON!

NOW WHO CAN AURGUE WITH GOD? HE DID BECAUSE HE SAID THAT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

He is a good and loving God, He made a way for us!
But only those who are proud, and religious fight against His Goodness!

No! one must become as a child, weak and foolish!

God gives grace to humble, but He will resist the proud! even until you are made weak. Wrestle against Him if you will? Fight against the Glory of Christ? Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess!

One thing that will never be found in scripture is permission to sin! God cannot sin and will never have it written in His Word.
What we do find is the way that all men became sinners through Adam. We find the truth of sin in the flesh of all men.
We Find That Christ Jesus paid the price for all sin, with His one sacrifice. We find that by Gods love and mercy we have been forgiven and granted access to all Grace. We find that since all men are sinners, that God made the way of righteousness by Faith in Christ.

We find that Gods Righteousness is seen in His mercy, not in His Anger. We see and know the love of God for us, and we love Him because He first loved us.

The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as we behold Christ Jesus as in His Glory as our own righteousness.

Paul said the mystery of Godliness is great? Then he described the work of Christ?

Its all about Jesus! The world was made to be His Stage! That His Glory might be seen.

For in Him alone, the Father is well pleased.

He is our righteousness! For He became a man to represent us in the court of heaven. Jesus Christ the Righteous!

 

[heymikey80]

When we understand that Gods righteousness is on our side against satan, and against our own sin, which is in the flesh of all men.

When we realize that we are righteous in Jesus Christ, we relize that we are not slaves to sin anymore. We do not have to dance to sins tune. We have been set free. We have been devilered. we have been washed in the Blood. We have been made clean. We have been made righteous!

I'm kinda new to this thread (slowly working my way back).

The situation I see Paul illustrating is pointblank, that we're righteous, yet also continue in our sinful natures. Even given the choice, y'hafta admit that having the choice allows our sin natures to continue on. Otherwise the choice to sin would not be available -- we'd not be capable of being sinners.

But Paul makes it even clearer.

"24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Rom 7:24-8:2

Just looking at the tenses of the verbs y'can see what Paul is getting at: we will be [fut] delivered from death; we currently [pres] serve law with mind, but sin with body; and there is therefore [consequentially] now [present, emphasized] no condemnation for Christians because the law of sin and death doesn't apply where the law of the Spirit of life has freed [past] you.

Salvation from what God has done, in His righteousness He has freed us, He justifies us currently even while we are sinners, and He will save us.

 

[Mitspa]

I'm kinda new to this thread (slowly working my way back).

The situation I see Paul illustrating is pointblank, that we're righteous, yet also continue in our sinful natures. Even given the choice, y'hafta admit that having the choice allows our sin natures to continue on. Otherwise the choice to sin would not be available -- we'd not be capable of being sinners.

But Paul makes it even clearer.

"24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Rom 7:24-8:2

Just looking at the tenses of the verbs y'can see what Paul is getting at: we will be [fut] delivered from death; we currently [pres] serve law with mind, but sin with body; and there is therefore [consequentially] now [present, emphasized] no condemnation for Christians because the law of sin and death doesn't apply where the law of the Spirit of life has freed [past] you.

Salvation from what God has done, in His righteousness He has freed us, He justifies us currently even while we are sinners, and He will save us.

Hello heymikey80! yes I agree with your post. I think the key point In the Rom 7 and 8 is that we turn to THE MAN, we turn from the law of sin and death and walk in the law of LIFE IN CHRIST. we have in fact, legally. been set free from the fallen condition of Adam. We have now entered into the legal contract with God, through Christ Jesus.
I think 1Cor3 helps us to understand that our obedience to God has went from looking at a written code of death. To a living Person, by faith and spirit.

I say this, that no man that has beheld the Glory of Christ can but be changed by that glory! What the law does is veils our heart and mind from seeing Christ , in His Glory! Which is true righteousness!

 

[Mitspa]

Hello heymikey80! yes I agree with your post. I think the key point In the Rom 7 and 8 is that we turn to THE MAN, we turn from the law of sin and death and walk in the law of LIFE IN CHRIST. we have in fact, legally. been set free from the fallen condition of Adam. We have now entered into the legal contract with God, through Christ Jesus.
I think 1Cor3 helps us to understand that our obedience to God has went from looking at a written code of death. To a living Person, by faith and spirit.

I say this, that no man that has beheld the Glory of Christ can but be changed by that glory! What the law does is veils our heart and mind from seeing Christ , in His Glory! Which is true righteousness!

I think if more understood that we are in a legal battle against satan, (the accuser) The law or OLD COVENANT (CONTRACT) was written against us! It is a legal case made against all men! "we know that whatsoever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that the whole world may become guilty before God"

The ministry of condemnation and death 2 Cor 3

Now we have a NEW COVENANT (legal contract with God) written in The Blood of Christ. Based upon faith in Him.

Now when one refuses the righteousness of God, by faith, they are in fact allowing satan to have legal right over them!

The god of this world has blinded their heart and minds? How? By the law of Moses!

Do not reject the Grace of God! do not reject His Righteousness, by attempting to establish your own!

" for they being ignorant of Gods Righteousness and going about to establish their own, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD!" Rom 10:3

 

[heymikey80]

Hello heymikey80! yes I agree with your post. I think the key point In the Rom 7 and 8 is that we turn to THE MAN, we turn from the law of sin and death and walk in the law of LIFE IN CHRIST. we have in fact, legally. been set free from the fallen condition of Adam. We have now entered into the legal contract with God, through Christ Jesus.

I think for the moment I need to return to the bit stated, because the examination of tenses here at once contradicts what you're stating, if the sense of what you're stating happens to be behavior in this creation.

"24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Rom 7:24-8:2

The wording here makes it impossible to escape certain sequences or dependencies that Paul is illustrating. Rom 7:24 says I am delivered through Jesus Christ. Rom 7:25 says "then", that is, as a result of that deliverance, I continue to serve God in mind, but serve sin in my body. This is a very different conclusion from turning from sin! Paul says (in the line of verses preceding it, Rom 7:15-23) that there is something of a barrier to turning with my body. And then Rom 8:1 just skewers any other way to deal with this sequence, when Paul says, "Now (having believed, being still servant of sin in the flesh) there is therefore (because of this situation I'm in) no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Apostle Paul say wha'?). For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus (through death, see the start of Romans 7:1-5) from the law of sin and death (that which would otherwise condemn you for your sinfulness in the flesh)."

So the turning at this point has strictly been in the believer's mind -- his body is still subject to sin. Yet there is no condemnation from God.

All I'm doing at this point is being emphatic about the sequence - or dependency - Paul is stating.

I think 1Cor3 helps us to understand that our obedience to God has went from looking at a written code of death. To a living Person, by faith and spirit.

I say this, that no man that has beheld the Glory of Christ can but be changed by that glory! What the law does is veils our heart and mind from seeing Christ , in His Glory! Which is true righteousness!

Mmm, okay. On the assumption that you're talking about 2 Cor 3, Paul talks about Christians being "in progress" towards glory. That is, there's a lot of present tense going on. And yet one of the past-tense sections, Paul states that we are already "written" by the Hand of the Spirit.

So the Spirit is indeed involved in currently changing our creational lives (Paul actually restates this fact in Romans 8:11). But to say that change is complete rather contradicts the words Paul is using.

As a result, then, faith precedes, and God grants us righteousness on His assertions. Creational change follows, and is very much the work of His Spirit in our lives, and not of us ourselves.

 

[Mitspa]

I think for the moment I need to return to the bit stated, because the examination of tenses here at once contradicts what you're stating, if the sense of what you're stating happens to be behavior in this creation.

"24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Rom 7:24-8:2

The wording here makes it impossible to escape certain sequences or dependencies that Paul is illustrating. Rom 7:24 says I am delivered through Jesus Christ. Rom 7:25 says "then", that is, as a result of that deliverance, I continue to serve God in mind, but serve sin in my body. This is a very different conclusion from turning from sin! Paul says (in the line of verses preceding it, Rom 7:15-23) that there is something of a barrier to turning with my body. And then Rom 8:1 just skewers any other way to deal with this sequence, when Paul says, "Now (having believed, being still servant of sin in the flesh) there is therefore (because of this situation I'm in) no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Apostle Paul say wha'?). For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus (through death, see the start of Romans 7:1-5) from the law of sin and death (that which would otherwise condemn you for your sinfulness in the flesh)."

So the turning at this point has strictly been in the believer's mind -- his body is still subject to sin. Yet there is no condemnation from God.

All I'm doing at this point is being emphatic about the sequence - or dependency - Paul is stating.

Mmm, okay. On the assumption that you're talking about 2 Cor 3, Paul talks about Christians being "in progress" towards glory. That is, there's a lot of present tense going on. And yet one of the past-tense sections, Paul states that we are already "written" by the Hand of the Spirit.

So the Spirit is indeed involved in currently changing our creational lives (Paul actually restates this fact in Romans 8:11). But to say that change is complete rather contradicts the words Paul is using.

As a result, then, faith precedes, and God grants us righteousness on His assertions. Creational change follows, and is very much the work of His Spirit in our lives, and not of us ourselves.

You want to seem to yeild to truth of scripture, yet you seem unable to come to clear conclusion of those scriptures?

As read you post you seem to agree but dissagree?
"ye are complete in Him"
Now I enjoy honest discussion of scripture with those who will look at them in an honest way. None of my post have in any way suggested that we are anything of ourselves, so why you would make a statement that suggest that I did, seems dishonest!

Now I have made many post on this thread, maybe I am trying to make one point, concering righteousness, and you are trying to make another? If so please take the time to lay out your veiw more clearly. I have the whole counsel of scripture and the position I hold Is very easy for me to defend, but I take that time with those who show the williness to look at scripture in an honest way? I do not enjoy that it seems you have attempted to twist my veiw, as in this last post! To the humble I will become a servant, to those who are in pride, I will be a rock they they cannot move. Mitspa

By the way many like to pretend they understand the greek, and talk of "tenses" and "mood", be careful is this, one could be made to look foolish, by those who have studied and been trained in such things.

 

[Mitspa]

Please read the post! but basically it is seen in Christ as we behold Him by faith!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

You may not be able to understand? but continue on in Gods grace and He will reveal Himself to you, through His Word!

It seems that the carnal mind acts and works the same in every man! "did God really say" is at the heart of all unbelief and sin.

Yes! God really said it! Rom 5:17 Those who RECEIVE The abundance of grace and the FREE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, shall reign in Life by Christ Jesus our Lord!

 

[JCitoL]

the righteousness of God is to be provided complete salvation and life to all humans which (provision/life) must last to the end of the eternity, but of course this purpose is not completely achievable to the humans, that is why the Lord Himself came to renew the Covenant/Testament, so that everything which therein was impossible for achieving on the part of the believers/humans (this time) to be achieved easier (even just) by faith in Christ, which thing is the perfect love already, because the righteousness of the true Lord God is the perfection of (the) love, for only He knows and can the best for all humans, while they can conceivably believe in Him, when at least some of them can even be His spiritual servants

Luke 19:25-26 "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.",

Matthew 6:31-33 "take no thought, saying, What shall we eat(i.e. what knowledge should we find/develop)? or, What shall we drink(i.e. or what spirituality should we have/make)? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed(i.e. or what should be our glory)? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek(i.e. because the seeking of resources, means and information is ordinary for the infidel/irreligious people): ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom(i.e. the love) of God, and his righteousness(i.e. and its perfection); and all these things shall be added unto you."

Blessings

 

[Mitspa]

the righteousness of God is to be provided complete salvation and life to all humans which (provision/life) must last to the end of the eternity, but of course this purpose is not completely achievable to the humans, that is why the Lord Himself came to renew the Covenant/Testament, so that everything which therein was impossible for achieving on the part of the believers/humans (this time) to be achieved easier (even just) by faith in Christ, which thing is the perfect love already, because the righteousness of the true Lord God is the perfection of (the) love, for only He knows and can the best for all humans, while they can conceivably believe in Him, when at least some of them can even be His spiritual servants

Luke 19:25-26 "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.",

Matthew 6:31-33 "take no thought, saying, What shall we eat(i.e. what knowledge should we find/develop)? or, What shall we drink(i.e. or what spirituality should we have/make)? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed(i.e. or what should be our glory)? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek(i.e. because the seeking of resources, means and information is ordinary for the infidel/irreligious people): ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom(i.e. the love) of God, and his righteousness(i.e. and its perfection); and all these things shall be added unto you."

Blessings

Not sure of your points? you say such things as "to the end of the eternity" now what does that mean?
Perfection by the glory of Christ seen by the righteousness of faith, is indeed to be sought with all diligence!
I guess to say " we cannot obtain" seems to be the easy way for religion! The "full stature" and of the fulness of Christ, is the purpose of the "church"!

I find you understanding of the scriptures, such as Matt 6 to just be wrong! Did God really say what He said? YES HE DID!

We who are in Christ are indeed made righteous! We are to, in fact, press into perfection by the Spirit, and be conformed by the Image of His Glory! Now if you do not understand these things? Become a fool, and God will make you wise!

 

[heymikey80]

You want to seem to yeild to truth of scripture, yet you seem unable to come to clear conclusion of those scriptures?

One would think that my allusions to what the Scriptures actually prevent makes a pretty clear conclusion as to what interpretations they prevent.

As read you post you seem to agree but dissagree?

But then, that would mean that there is some amount of agreement and some amount of disagreement, I would think. I see this a lot among posts I haven't entirely expected, so I would consider that others would have the same reaction to some of my posts.

"ye are complete in Him"

Hm, the reference here seems to be having been made full.

Now I enjoy honest discussion of scripture with those who will look at them in an honest way. None of my post have in any way suggested that we are anything of ourselves, so why you would make a statement that suggest that I did, seems dishonest!

I don't believe I've suggested this of your position. I've simply pointed out that what's done is done entirely at the Spirit's initiation and power, and not at either from the believer's.

Now I have made many post on this thread, maybe I am trying to make one point, concering righteousness, and you are trying to make another?

Mine is embedded in a wide view of the process of salvation; but we're back to pointing out the state and behavior of the person whom God declares righteous. The implication of Romans 8:1 is that the person is not condemned -in a court of justice, tantamount to "justification", or "righteousness" - yet the person, Paul says in the verse immediately prior (connected with 8:1 by not one but two conjunctions) that the person serves sin in the flesh (Rom 7:25).

Now, as I've said I don't have your view, I'm simply restating what Scripture states. It would seem fairly straightforward to me.

If so please take the time to lay out your veiw more clearly. I have the whole counsel of scripture and the position I hold Is very easy for me to defend, but I take that time with those who show the williness to look at scripture in an honest way? I do not enjoy that it seems you have attempted to twist my veiw, as in this last post! To the humble I will become a servant, to those who are in pride, I will be a rock they they cannot move. Mitspa

By the way many like to pretend they understand the greek, and talk of "tenses" and "mood", be careful is this, one could be made to look foolish, by those who have studied and been trained in such things.

Um, yeah. That would certainly be possible. I am referring to my school books, but should I hit a rusty patch I'm sure someone will bring it to my attention.

 

[Mitspa]

One would think that my allusions to what the Scriptures actually prevent makes a pretty clear conclusion as to what interpretations they prevent.


But then, that would mean that there is some amount of agreement and some amount of disagreement, I would think. I see this a lot among posts I haven't entirely expected, so I would consider that others would have the same reaction to some of my posts.

Hm, the reference here seems to be having been made full.

I don't believe I've suggested this of your position. I've simply pointed out that what's done is done entirely at the Spirit's initiation and power, and not at either from the believer's.

Mine is embedded in a wide view of the process of salvation; but we're back to pointing out the state and behavior of the person whom God declares righteous. The implication of Romans 8:1 is that the person is not condemned -in a court of justice, tantamount to "justification", or "righteousness" - yet the person, Paul says in the verse immediately prior (connected with 8:1 by not one but two conjunctions) that the person serves sin in the flesh (Rom 7:25).

Now, as I've said I don't have your view, I'm simply restating what Scripture states. It would seem fairly straightforward to me.

Um, yeah. That would certainly be possible. I am referring to my school books, but should I hit a rusty patch I'm sure someone will bring it to my attention.

Again you seem to make no clear point, only to agree to disagree?
This is could be what James called "double minded" ?

Now my points and positions are clear and the whole of the New Testament bear witness. Now if you have a position on the righteousness of God, please bring it forward, in a clear way. If you are not sure of your position? Then I suggest you should figure out what you believe before you try to correct others!

I say again, I do not understand any point you have made? It seems you are missing the truth of scripture alltogether? But I leave open the possibility that we are just speaking past each other?

Now Again I say, THE GOSPEL IS THE REVELATION OF GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS! SEEN ONLY IN FAITH AND IN THE GLORY OF CHRIST!
FROM FAITH TO FAITH AND GLORY TO GLORY!
for the Righteous (just) shall live by Faith!

 

[heymikey80]

Again you seem to make no clear point, only to agree to disagree?
This is could be what James called "double minded" ?

Maybe because referring back to the point Paul makes, the point is too clear to avoid, and I assume only needs explanation.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 7:24-8:1

"Now", not later. In flesh the believer still serves the law of sin. But the power of that law is broken, because of what God did in Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

Maybe because referring back to the point Paul makes, the point is too clear to avoid, and I assume only needs explanation.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 7:24-8:1

"Now", not later. In flesh the believer still serves the law of sin. But the power of that law is broken, because of what God did in Christ.

Still I am not sure of your point? No one has made claim that the flesh has no power? The righteousness of God and the spirit of life in Christ has given victory over the flesh and the world!

Again if you are making a point? I cannot see it!

 

[heymikey80]

Still I am not sure of your point? No one has made claim that the flesh has no power? The righteousness of God and the spirit of life in Christ has given victory over the flesh and the world!

Again if you are making a point? I cannot see it!

What does the Scripture itself say -- "with my flesh I am serving the law of sin". Service to the sin principle is sinning.

 

[Mitspa]

What does the Scripture itself say -- "with my flesh I am serving the law of sin". Service to the sin principle is sinning.

I think that one must read more than one scripture to get the complete truth in those passages?

again? I say that the flesh cannot please God and is always sinful, no matter how much religion one tries to practice with it!

The point being we must have the Spirit, and walk in the spirit!

Read on into Roms 8 and gives you the answer to the sin that dwells in the flesh.

Now, I have tried to see your point again? but you still seem to make little or no point? I hope you are not one of those who just seek to watse my time? I will not follow a religious spirit in circles! If you want an honest conversation, I will be glad to have that. If you want to play word games? I suggest you go to another thread. -Mitspa

 

[heymikey80]

I think that one must read more than one scripture to get the complete truth in those passages?

again? I say that the flesh cannot please God and is always sinful, no matter how much religion one tries to practice with it!

The point being we must have the Spirit, and walk in the spirit!

Read on into Roms 8 and gives you the answer to the sin that dwells in the flesh.

Now, I have tried to see your point again? but you still seem to make little or no point? I hope you are not one of those who just seek to watse my time? I will not follow a religious spirit in circles! If you want an honest conversation, I will be glad to have that. If you want to play word games? I suggest you go to another thread. -Mitspa

Once again, Paul's statement demands that the flesh is right there with is, and we are (present) its servants.

The rest of Romans 8 has to be interpreted based on what Paul is already saying. So yes, more than one Scripture. But all Scripture must remain consistent with itself. Especially that verse which is not 15 verses from the rest.

The point is going to come back, re-emphasized with growing vigor, that human beings are subject to the flesh as long as they are in the flesh.

The issue Paul presents is not the absence of the flesh, which is servant of sin; the issue Paul presents is the presence of the Spirit, and His power over our mortal bodies to do what He wants. There is no missing the fact that sin continues with us, as long as we are in the flesh. But Paul points to "Who are you loyal to?" in this fight. Paul has no illusions about the claims both flesh and Spirit hold in the Christian battlefield over the person.

So it's both sinner and righteous.

Paul defines living according to flesh as setting your mind on the flesh (Rom 8:5). But Paul does not define it as never again doing the works of the flesh. In fact, were that true, Paul could not define the Spirit's action as "by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13. Because there would be no deeds of the flesh to put to death.

So the change in our minds toward the spiritual, that enables us to rely on the Spirit, Who has the power to move in us to do what He wishes. The Spirit is really Who decides what happens, and when. And our reliance on Christ brings us the Spirit, Who has both the Power and the initiative to bring about change -- in His time, at His will.

 

[Mitspa]

Once again, Paul's statement demands that the flesh is right there with is, and we are (present) its servants.

The rest of Romans 8 has to be interpreted based on what Paul is already saying. So yes, more than one Scripture. But all Scripture must remain consistent with itself. Especially that verse which is not 15 verses from the rest.

The point is going to come back, re-emphasized with growing vigor, that human beings are subject to the flesh as long as they are in the flesh.

The issue Paul presents is not the absence of the flesh, which is servant of sin; the issue Paul presents is the presence of the Spirit, and His power over our mortal bodies to do what He wants. There is no missing the fact that sin continues with us, as long as we are in the flesh. But Paul points to "Who are you loyal to?" in this fight. Paul has no illusions about the claims both flesh and Spirit hold in the Christian battlefield over the person.

So it's both sinner and righteous.

Paul defines living according to flesh as setting your mind on the flesh (Rom 8:5). But Paul does not define it as never again doing the works of the flesh. In fact, were that true, Paul could not define the Spirit's action as "by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13. Because there would be no deeds of the flesh to put to death.

So the change in our minds toward the spiritual, that enables us to rely on the Spirit, Who has the power to move in us to do what He wishes. The Spirit is really Who decides what happens, and when. And our reliance on Christ brings us the Spirit, Who has both the Power and the initiative to bring about change -- in His time, at His will.

"Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh"
this is OUR PART! God did His when He gave us His Spirit!

I kinda agree that it is a process! that the battle against the flesh is a long hard fight! But we do that by the Power of Righteousness given to us by faith in Christ! Now this thread in focused upon the issue of Gods righteousness. I have a thread on "walking in the Spirit" You are welcome to adress your issues there, but please try to keep this thread on its topic, as much as possible?

 

[JCitoL]

Not sure of your points? you say such things as "to the end of the eternity" now what does that mean?
Perfection by the glory of Christ seen by the righteousness of faith, is indeed to be sought with all diligence!
I guess to say " we cannot obtain" seems to be the easy way for religion! The "full stature" and of the fulness of Christ, is the purpose of the "church"!

I find you understanding of the scriptures, such as Matt 6 to just be wrong! Did God really say what He said? YES HE DID!

We who are in Christ are indeed made righteous! We are to, in fact, press into perfection by the Spirit, and be conformed by the Image of His Glory! Now if you do not understand these things? Become a fool, and God will make you wise!

Hi

we did not refer that the believers must not be righteous, but we just affirmed God's righteousness which is the overall care/provision, and we mean namely the equality in the true God and Jesus, or e.g. as when the parent take care not only of some of its children, but of all, or what would be if only some of its children receive ice cream, while others (can) only see how their brethren eat?!, and what can do the God Who is Father of all people/souls?!, and the good news are, not only that He can do all good things for them, but even that He chooses to provide completely all of them, so that no one to remain destitute as regards the Things that it needs in Him, and of course, the believers ought to be like Him as regards the love for the (other) humans, according to the written:

Matthew 5:43-48 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun(i.e. His benediction/grace) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain(i.e. His purification) on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans(i.e. the unrighteous) the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more |than others|? do not even the publicans(i.e. the unrighteous) so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect(i.e. perfectly loving/regardful)."

because wherever we are, the universe will always be full of humans viz. (of) our neighbours, because we all have one common home, and it is the boundless universe, then (whether or not) the everlasting life also has a cycle with an end after which all souls will again be knocked down on the part of the "darkness", and so in the following beginning they again will come under sin viz. under the system of spiritual/religious iniquity which is concentrated principally in this world

Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.",

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 "The thing that hath been(viz. in this eternity), it is that which shall be(viz. in the subsequent eternity); and that which is done(viz. in the current eternity) is that which shall be done(viz. in the following eternity): and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time(viz. in the previous rotations/repeats of the eternity), which was before us(i.e. before the current eternity). There is no remembrance of former things(viz. there is no remembrance of the things that occurred in the previous eternity); neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after(i.e. neither shall there be any remembrance of the things which will occur during the subsequent eternity with the souls in the subsequent rotation of their roles/characters)."

this shows us that the covetousness is pointless and even increases the vanity

Blessings

 

[Mitspa]

Hi

we did not refer that the believers must not be righteous, but we just affirmed God's righteousness which is the overall care/provision, and we mean namely the equality in the true God and Jesus, or e.g. as when the parent take care not only of some of its children, but of all, or what would be if only some of its children receive ice cream, while others (can) only see how their brethren eat?!, and what can do the God Who is Father of all people/souls?!, and the good news are, not only that He can do all good things for them, but even that He chooses to provide completely all of them, so that no one to remain destitute as regards the Things that it needs in Him, and of course, the believers ought to be like Him as regards the love for the (other) humans, according to the written:

Matthew 5:43-48 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun(i.e. His benediction/grace) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain(i.e. His purification) on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans(i.e. the unrighteous) the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more |than others|? do not even the publicans(i.e. the unrighteous) so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect(i.e. perfectly loving/regardful)."

because wherever we are, the universe will always be full of humans viz. (of) our neighbours, because we all have one common home, and it is the boundless universe, then (whether or not) the everlasting life also has a cycle with an end after which all souls will again be knocked down on the part of the "darkness", and so in the following beginning they again will come under sin viz. under the system of spiritual/religious iniquity which is concentrated principally in this world

Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.",

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 "The thing that hath been(viz. in this eternity), it is that which shall be(viz. in the subsequent eternity); and that which is done(viz. in the current eternity) is that which shall be done(viz. in the following eternity): and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time(viz. in the previous rotations/repeats of the eternity), which was before us(i.e. before the current eternity). There is no remembrance of former things(viz. there is no remembrance of the things that occurred in the previous eternity); neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after(i.e. neither shall there be any remembrance of the things which will occur during the subsequent eternity with the souls in the subsequent rotation of their roles/characters)."

this shows us that the covetousness is pointless and even increases the vanity

Blessings

I think for a "non-christian" you have a valid veiw! But for those of us who have received the Spirit of God, we have in fact received the very divine nature of God! We have a part of God living to us and in us! The Holy Spirit has made us True children of God. I am just sorry to have to tell you that until you have the Holy Spirit, you are not His Children, but you are in fact under the rule of satan, the god of this world.

Now God has shown His mercy and Love for all men, through the death of His Son. All who will accept His unconditional love and righteousness must accept His Son and the price He paid for our sins. There is no other way!

So the issue then, is not that God is good, for He is! The issue is that will men bow their knee to The Glory of Christ and be saved from their sins? FOR ALL MEN ARE SINNERS AND NEED SALVATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH!

 

[JCitoL]

I think for a "non-christian" you have a valid veiw! But for those of us who have received the Spirit of God, we have in fact received the very divine nature of God! We have a part of God living to us and in us! The Holy Spirit has made us True children of God. I am just sorry to have to tell you that until you have the Holy Spirit, you are not His Children, but you are in fact under the rule of satan, the god of this world.

Now God has shown His mercy and Love for all men, through the death of His Son. All who will accept His unconditional love and righteousness must accept His Son and the price He paid for our sins. There is no other way!

So the issue then, is not that God is good, for He is! The issue is that will men bow their knee to The Glory of Christ and be saved from their sins? FOR ALL MEN ARE SINNERS AND NEED SALVATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH!

some of us just do not presume to think or present themselves as believers, because regard themselves as undeserving therein, however in the previous reply we were meaning the love towards the (other) humans, because it has been written that "God is love"(1 John 4:7-21), or is it feasible the true God to be worse than the doctors who always aim to heal each of their patients completely?!, or is He worse parent than the good humans are?!, but what if it turns out that God the Father was not able to save completely all people/souls of the universe because when all Creature/Creation has been made in six days(144 hours) He felt (Himself) languorous and fell into a state of millennial somnolence/drowse on the seventh day which continues even till now(Genesis 2:2-3)?!, and what if He has left the spiritual servants to sanctify the Creature/Creation until He wakes up completely and permanently(Exodus 20:8-11)?!, and what if it turns out that He has made to have two categories of people, spiritual servants and most ordinary users?!, and why the true God to be guilty if some people chose to be spiritual servants, but did not fulfil their obligations as pleaders for the salvation of humankind before Him?!, and why the ordinary users to be guilty for the fact that He has not made them spiritual servants?!

Romans 2:14-29 "when the Gentiles, which have not the law(i.e. when the infidel/non-occult people, viz. the ordinary users who do not practice faith/occultism), do by nature the things contained in the law(i.e. do not violate by nature the things in the Holy Law of (the) faith), these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law(i.e. of the Holy Law) written in their hearts(i.e. in their spirits), their conscience also bearing witness, and |their| thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men(i.e. the human spiritual/religious activities) by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Behold, thou art called a Jew(i.e. a cleric/believer), and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest |his| will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal(i.e. do you bereave against the Will of God)? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery(i.e. do you intrude)? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege(i.e. do you do unrighteousness in the faith)? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law(i.e. the Holy Law of (the) faith) dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. For circumcision(i.e. faith) verily profiteth, if thou keep the law(i.e. the Holy Law of (the) faith): but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision(i.e. is come spiritual/religious iniquity). Therefore if the uncircumcision(i.e. if the infidel/non-occult human) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision(i.e. its unbelief) be counted for circumcision(i.e. for faithfulness)? And shall not uncircumcision which is(i.e. infidel/non-occult human that is such) by nature, if it fulfil the law(i.e. if it does not violate the Holy Law of (the) faith), judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law(i.e. the Holy Law of (the) faith)? For he is not a Jew(i.e. a righteous cleric/believer), which is one outwardly; neither |is that| circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he |is| a Jew(i.e. a righteous cleric/believer), which is one inwardly; and circumcision |is that| of the heart(i.e. in the faith), in the spirit, |and| not in the letter; whose praise |is| not of men, but of God.",

2 Timothy 2:16-26 "shun profane |and| vain babblings(i.e. avoid the unrighteous and ineffectual creeds): for they will increase unto more ungodliness(viz. for they are in the direction of (the) spiritual/religious iniquity). And their word will eat as doth a canker(i.e. and the spiritual/religious activity of (the) unrighteous spiritual servants/workers may only cause ills to many humans): of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth(i.e. the right faith) have erred, saying that the resurrection(viz. the complete salvation of all humans) is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ(i.e. everyone that become/are spiritual servants/workers must) depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these(i.e. from the spiritual/religious iniquity), he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, |and| prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts(i.e. ruffianly actions): but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart(i.e. of a pure love/faith). But foolish and unlearned(i.e. pointless and illicit) questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all |men|, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And |that| they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

and how is it possible God the Father not to be Heavenly Father to all humans, but only to some of them?!, and how is it possible some human being not to be our brother for as much as all humans are made of Him?!, because what make the man and woman therein except the process of copulation, while the true God makes all biological processes during and after (the) pregnancy?!, isn't it inequitable when some human(-s) remain(-s) destitute of salvation/provision only because it is(they are) infidel/non-occult?!

Blessings