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what is hell?

Does hell mean eternal torment or simply that you cease to exist?

I am an only child. When my parents divorced my mother didn’t think I was worth demanding child support for, and the sperm donor never paid what the divorce judge told him to pay anyway. I’ve had no contact with him since 1983. I wouldn’t give you 2 cents for all of his family combined. My mother’s family is all dead except for a nephew, but I wouldn’t give 2 cents for them either.


My mother has been nothing but a detriment to me since the day I was born- 10 weeks premature. I was supposed to have been stillborn; she couldn’t even do that right.

I’ve lost count of how many times my mother has told people with more than 2 children, “I learn from my mistakes- one husband, one childâ€.


I became a Christian when I was about 4 years old while I was attending a YMCA day camp. My mother is not saved and has no wish to be saved. I have never been a member of any church and I have never attended church services. And quite frankly I don’t see how I have missed anything- too many Bible-thumping church goers have condemned me for not living up to their expectations when they have made no effort to understand my situation in life.

My mother has lupus and I have been stupid enough to be her only caregiver. And I myself have congestive heart failure, severe high blood pressure and arthritis that will likely cripple me if I live another 10 years. When I was a child several doctors told my mother that I had a heart murmur, but my mother didn’t do anything about it; she didn’t even tell me what doctors told her until I was diagnosed with heart failure at age 40.

I took bp drugs for almost 2 years and now wish I had OD’d on them before I decided to stop taking them altogether due to the side effects- that my doctor says don’t exist.

I grew up wanting to be a doctor. My high school grades were very good. But I had no money for college on my own so my mother exiled me 600 miles to go to a college that I didn’t want any part of. I barely graduated with a degree in biology.

When I got out of college I wanted to open a non-profit college prep school for Christian students. I contacted about 250 local churches, but not one of them had classroom space it was willing to let me rent or borrow. I gave up on the idea and was working as a private tutor when my mother’s brother died and I inherited a fair amount of cash. But since my mother handled the paperwork my money went into her bank account. She’s made it clear that I am not entitled to spend any of it, so spending any of it means I will become homeless.

I wanted to use the money to build a school. I could afford the materials but I couldn’t find any church that is willing to provide the necessary land and volunteer labor.


I have offered the money to various ministries, existing Christian schools as well as orphanages and colleges hoping I could trade the money for a job. The only people that have been willing to talk to me tell me what I have isn’t enough to satisfy them.

I have looked for a pastoral position, but of the hundreds of churches I have contacted only one asked me to go through any kind of interview process- a freewill Baptist church in
Mississippi asked me to fill out a questionnaire. But that church hasn’t even bothered to acknowledge that it received my answers.

Churches where I live won’t answer their phone during business hours, and churches on the net won’t even acknowledge my prayer requests.

I would like to buy some property and set up an organic farm. My father’s parents were expert vegetable growers; my mother’s mother came from a
North Carolina farm family. I’ve been around gardening my whole life and I have had my own garden almost every year since 1981. I know how to grow vegetables, but my mother essentially says I am too stupid to know how to run a farm. But at any rate I cannot run a farm without people willing to help me with the physical labor, but nobody is interested.

I am in constant physical pain because of my health. I am in constant emotional pain because of my existence. And nobody gives a damn. So-called Christians on the net either tell me to trust God or they say everything that is wrong with me is my fault. I am ready to kill myself and only the thought that hell means even more pain and suffering than I have known my whole life prevents me from doing it.
 
I could be wrong, but I don’t think hell is “eternal torment.†I think it is simply “torment.â€
 
I do not believe that "the lost" will suffer eternally in a placed called "hell". As on many other fronts, such as "end times", I believe that Christians have taken metaphorical language literally in respect to the matter of hell.

I believe the lost are ultimately annihilated.
 
Does hell mean eternal torment or simply that you cease to exist?

I am an only child. When my parents divorced my mother didn’t think I was worth demanding child support for, and the sperm donor never paid what the divorce judge told him to pay anyway. I’ve had no contact with him since 1983. I wouldn’t give you 2 cents for all of his family combined. My mother’s family is all dead except for a nephew, but I wouldn’t give 2 cents for them either.


My mother has been nothing but a detriment to me since the day I was born- 10 weeks premature. I was supposed to have been stillborn; she couldn’t even do that right.

I’ve lost count of how many times my mother has told people with more than 2 children, “I learn from my mistakes- one husband, one childâ€.


I became a Christian when I was about 4 years old while I was attending a YMCA day camp. My mother is not saved and has no wish to be saved. I have never been a member of any church and I have never attended church services. And quite frankly I don’t see how I have missed anything- too many Bible-thumping church goers have condemned me for not living up to their expectations when they have made no effort to understand my situation in life.

My mother has lupus and I have been stupid enough to be her only caregiver. And I myself have congestive heart failure, severe high blood pressure and arthritis that will likely cripple me if I live another 10 years. When I was a child several doctors told my mother that I had a heart murmur, but my mother didn’t do anything about it; she didn’t even tell me what doctors told her until I was diagnosed with heart failure at age 40.

I took bp drugs for almost 2 years and now wish I had OD’d on them before I decided to stop taking them altogether due to the side effects- that my doctor says don’t exist.

I grew up wanting to be a doctor. My high school grades were very good. But I had no money for college on my own so my mother exiled me 600 miles to go to a college that I didn’t want any part of. I barely graduated with a degree in biology.

When I got out of college I wanted to open a non-profit college prep school for Christian students. I contacted about 250 local churches, but not one of them had classroom space it was willing to let me rent or borrow. I gave up on the idea and was working as a private tutor when my mother’s brother died and I inherited a fair amount of cash. But since my mother handled the paperwork my money went into her bank account. She’s made it clear that I am not entitled to spend any of it, so spending any of it means I will become homeless.

I wanted to use the money to build a school. I could afford the materials but I couldn’t find any church that is willing to provide the necessary land and volunteer labor.


I have offered the money to various ministries, existing Christian schools as well as orphanages and colleges hoping I could trade the money for a job. The only people that have been willing to talk to me tell me what I have isn’t enough to satisfy them.

I have looked for a pastoral position, but of the hundreds of churches I have contacted only one asked me to go through any kind of interview process- a freewill Baptist church in Mississippi asked me to fill out a questionnaire. But that church hasn’t even bothered to acknowledge that it received my answers.

Churches where I live won’t answer their phone during business hours, and churches on the net won’t even acknowledge my prayer requests.

I would like to buy some property and set up an organic farm. My father’s parents were expert vegetable growers; my mother’s mother came from a
North Carolina farm family. I’ve been around gardening my whole life and I have had my own garden almost every year since 1981. I know how to grow vegetables, but my mother essentially says I am too stupid to know how to run a farm. But at any rate I cannot run a farm without people willing to help me with the physical labor, but nobody is interested.

I am in constant physical pain because of my health. I am in constant emotional pain because of my existence. And nobody gives a damn. So-called Christians on the net either tell me to trust God or they say everything that is wrong with me is my fault. I am ready to kill myself and only the thought that hell means even more pain and suffering than I have known my whole life prevents me from doing it.

talk to God, ask the Holy Spirit to fill you with peace and joy, start attending church services until you find one you like, and feel free to pm me if you would like to talk.
 
I’ve been discussing this issue on the web for the past week. My thinking is still not settled on the issues that have been raised, and I will do further research before I come to any firm conclusion. But these are my preliminary conclusions.

1. The body, soul and spirit are all mortal because saying they are immortal is the same thing as saying God cannot kill them. But God is omnipotent and is thus capable of killing them. Any limitation on His power negates His existence. The question of the mortality/immortality of the body, soul and spirit is separate from the question of whether or not an individual’s body, soul and spirit will die.

2. God did not create body or spirit or soul intending for either of them to be mortal. He created living things to have everlasting life. A God that would create living things intending them to die is not a god worthy of recognition, let alone worship. This rules out death before sin and thus makes an old age for the earth unnecessary (no Darwinism and no Gap) but this does not automatically mean a young earth. It only means that nothing in creation died before Satan rebelled against God and Adam and Eve sinned against God.

3. The idea of eternal torment for the wicked is, in a way, a means of seeking revenge on the wicked- who wouldn’t want an Adolf Hitler to roast in eternal hell fire- and this negates faith in God based on genuine repentance because you are seeking a way to avoid having to grant forgiveness.

4. Nobody will legitimately serve God because they are afraid of hellfire. You have to serve God because you genuinely want to serve God. You cannot serve God because of any ulterior motive.

5. Baptists are likely the people that have the greatest reliance on hellfire and this demonstrates the un-repentant sinfulness inherent in Baptists; if it takes the threat of hellfire to keep a Baptist on the straight and narrow path, that Baptist seeks to serve God for personal gain and not because of heartfelt desire to serve God.

6. The people who have told me that hell means eternal torment are also the people most likely to blame me for the troubles that have been my existence so far. I still refuse to accept any blame for the results of decisions that I had no say in making- mainly that I had no way to choose my parents. Why these people threaten me with hellfire at the same time they cast blame on me implying that my misery is punishment for something I have done is something I do not understand. But their hostility towards someone that is seeking help speaks volumes against their theology.

7. I doubt that any of these conclusions will help me deal with my current situation. I suspect that separation from my current situation in terms of time and distance, i.e. my situation must improve before I can have any hope of recovery. Whether or not that separation happens remains to be seen.

8. I’ve always accepted the idea of eternal torment for sinners. But, it is possible that I would never have questioned this idea or reached any of these preliminary conclusion without reaching a state of misery so severe that I am willing to risk eternal torment for the sake of ending my current misery by suicide. This may be God’s purpose for my misery; I don’t know for sure yet.​
 
I couldn't get past the first point in your conclusions.

The body is mortal. It dies and returns to dust. The soul and spirit is immortal, for upon death these parts of us go to God. The spirit is where Holy Spirit lives in a believer and the soul of man is the seat of the mind, will and emotions---the personality! God has created these two parts of us to be immortal, to later receive a new immortal body at the resurrection!
 
I’ve been discussing this issue on the web for the past week. My thinking is still not settled on the issues that have been raised, and I will do further research before I come to any firm conclusion. But these are my preliminary conclusions.

1. The body, soul and spirit are all mortal because saying they are immortal is the same thing as saying God cannot kill them. But God is omnipotent and is thus capable of killing them. Any limitation on His power negates His existence. The question of the mortality/immortality of the body, soul and spirit is separate from the question of whether or not an individual’s body, soul and spirit will die.

2. God did not create body or spirit or soul intending for either of them to be mortal. He created living things to have everlasting life. A God that would create living things intending them to die is not a god worthy of recognition, let alone worship. This rules out death before sin and thus makes an old age for the earth unnecessary (no Darwinism and no Gap) but this does not automatically mean a young earth. It only means that nothing in creation died before Satan rebelled against God and Adam and Eve sinned against God.

3. The idea of eternal torment for the wicked is, in a way, a means of seeking revenge on the wicked- who wouldn’t want an Adolf Hitler to roast in eternal hell fire- and this negates faith in God based on genuine repentance because you are seeking a way to avoid having to grant forgiveness.

4. Nobody will legitimately serve God because they are afraid of hellfire. You have to serve God because you genuinely want to serve God. You cannot serve God because of any ulterior motive.

5. Baptists are likely the people that have the greatest reliance on hellfire and this demonstrates the un-repentant sinfulness inherent in Baptists; if it takes the threat of hellfire to keep a Baptist on the straight and narrow path, that Baptist seeks to serve God for personal gain and not because of heartfelt desire to serve God.

6. The people who have told me that hell means eternal torment are also the people most likely to blame me for the troubles that have been my existence so far. I still refuse to accept any blame for the results of decisions that I had no say in making- mainly that I had no way to choose my parents. Why these people threaten me with hellfire at the same time they cast blame on me implying that my misery is punishment for something I have done is something I do not understand. But their hostility towards someone that is seeking help speaks volumes against their theology.

7. I doubt that any of these conclusions will help me deal with my current situation. I suspect that separation from my current situation in terms of time and distance, i.e. my situation must improve before I can have any hope of recovery. Whether or not that separation happens remains to be seen.

8. I’ve always accepted the idea of eternal torment for sinners. But, it is possible that I would never have questioned this idea or reached any of these preliminary conclusion without reaching a state of misery so severe that I am willing to risk eternal torment for the sake of ending my current misery by suicide. This may be God’s purpose for my misery; I don’t know for sure yet.
You need to commit your life to God and ask Jesus to be your Saviour,also reading the book of Job might help.
 
The body is mortal. It dies and returns to dust.
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Was this true before Adam and Eve sinned? If so, then your god is not worth recognition or worship. If God is a just and righteous God, then He had no right to create a living thing just so it could die. God had no right to tell Adam and Eve that they would die if they sinned if He had created them to die anyway. And if God had created Adam and Eve knowing that their bodies would die, then when God told them not to sin He had to have been telling them that their soul/spirit would die if they sinned, thus the soul and spirit cannot be immortal.<o:p></o:p>
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The soul and spirit is immortal, for upon death these parts of us go to God.
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You are saying either that God is not omnipotent since He cannot kill your body and spirit (compare with: Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell) or that every human being is equivalent to God which destroys Judeo-Christian theology completely. An entity that cannot die has to be immortal and an entity that is immortal has to be God. If you claim that your soul/spirit is immortal, then you are claiming to be God. This is blasphemy.<o:p></o:p>
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The spirit is where Holy Spirit lives in a believer and the soul of man is the seat of the mind, will and emotions---the personality! God has created these two parts of us to be immortal, to later receive a new immortal body at the resurrection!
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Again, before or after sin?<o:p></o:p>
 
Well, this last post took an odd turn of approach. I'm not sure of your intentions, now. Perhaps you'd like to clarify.
 
God has the ability to destroy the body and the spirit. He says so....but He won't destroy the bodies or the souls or the spirits of any of His adopted sons and daughters.
 
God has the ability to destroy the body and the spirit. He says so....but He won't destroy the bodies or the souls or the spirits of any of His adopted sons and daughters.

I Timothy 6:13-16 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The Bible clearly says that only God is immortal. Human bodies, spirits and souls are mortal.<o:p></o:p>
 
If sinners are kept alive forever so they can be subjected to eternal torment, will they be in eternal rebellion against God? If the Lord is a righteous God, how can He legitimately tolerate sinful behavior for all eternity by not ending completely a sinner’s existence?
 
I Timothy 6:13-16 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: ffice:office" /><o>:p></o>:p>
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. <o>:p></o>:p>
<o>:p></o>:p>
The Bible clearly says that only God is immortal. Human bodies, spirits and souls are mortal.<o>:p></o>:p>

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29761">1 Timothy 6:13-16 NLT
13</sup> And I charge you before God, who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony before Pontius Pilate, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29762">14</sup> that you obey this command without wavering. Then no one can find fault with you from now until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29763">15</sup> For at just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29764">16</sup> He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen.



This is speaking of the immortality of Jesus Christ, a physical man, who to the writer, is the only immortal physical man---so far! Because of Him, we can now receive the promise of an immortal, glorified physical body!


1 Peter 1:3-4 NLT
The Hope of Eternal Life


<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-30337">3</sup> All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-30338">4</sup> and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay.
 
Well from what I understand, it is eternal. Sinners will be away from God forever.

If sinners are subject to eternal torment, then sinners will always be alive and present in Hell. So how then can sinners be put away from God forever? You are implying that hell is someplace where God cannot exist, otherwise He would be in the presence of sinners and sinners would not then put away from God. If you put limitations on what God can do and where He can be, you nullify God's existence because He ceases to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
 
If sinners are subject to eternal torment, then sinners will always be alive and present in Hell. So how then can sinners be put away from God forever?


You ask HOW? God is perfectly able to put all evil into complete and utter confinement. He has already told us how.


You are implying that hell is someplace where God cannot exist, otherwise He would be in the presence of sinners and sinners would not then put away from God.

God has the ability to withdraw His presence from anywhere He so chooses. He created hell to be such a place bereft of His presence. He still exists. Your reasoning is conveniently puerile.


If you put limitations on what God can do and where He can be, you nullify God's existence because He ceases to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.ffice:office" /><o>:p></o>:p>

Listen up: God Himself limits what He will and will not do.
 
You ask HOW? God is perfectly able to put all evil into complete and utter confinement.

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<O:p</O:p
Satan has obviously blinded you with the folly of your own doctrine. If evil is only confined, then it is still in God’s presence if you don’t tell God that He cannot enter into this place of confinement. And you, a mere human being, cannot dictate to God what He can and cannot do.

God has the ability to withdraw His presence from anywhere He so chooses. He created hell to be such a place bereft of His presence.

You are essentially saying God has created a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift.

Listen up: God Himself limits what He will and will not do.

In this case it is you that are limiting what God can and cannot will and will not do. You have such a hardened heart that you cannot love your enemies. You cannot wait to see your enemies writhing in torment.

God may choose to not do something, but that is not the same thing as God putting limitations on Himself. Any limitations placed on God’s ability to do something, regardless of whom it is that is placing the limitation, negates God’s existence. Limit what God can do and He ceases to be the supreme omnipotent being.

<O:p
BTW: Your condescending attitude is neither appreciated, nor called for. I don’t accept your doctrine, but that is no reason to treat me like a child or a fool.
 
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