What is SAVED?

[Nathan]

Nice.
I like how you try to come to a common understanding of words. This is a big plus when communicating.

So, OSA
OR
it is possible to AGAIN BECOME SEPARATED FROM CHRIST.

You like how that sounds?
It's a battle you won't win though.
non- OSAS seems to be the word.
(I hate it)

Yea, it should be OSAS vs ELIJ (Eternal Life In Jesus)

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Where is this life?

Its not about the possibility of being separated, but the encouragement to stay faithful. Many believers in OSAS don't care so much about being faithful because they believe they own salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

How does this verse indicate that WE must "accept" salvation. It seems to just be about Jesus freely giving to anyone that "thirsts" (has need).

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. [NKJV]

If you read the rest of Rev 21, specifically Rev 21:8, you'll read that not all will inherit the New Earth.

ONLY those who thirsted (wanted God) and to whom Jesus gave from the spring of the water of life --- and without cost. (Ephesians 2:8, it is a free gift).
This reminds me of
John 4:10
John 4:13
The Samaritan woman at the well...

But yes, we must accept salvation. Those in Rev. 21:8... did NOT accept or receive salvation.

(otherewise we'd be believers in universalism)

 

[atpollard]

Yea, it should be OSAS vs ELIJ(Eternal Life In Jesus)

Those who believe in Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints didn't get to choose "OSAS" so you get stuck with the acronym assigned by your opponents as well.

Christians didn't get to choose the name "Christian" for themselves, and Calvinists didn't choose the name "Calvinists" for themselves.
[so suck it up, buttercup.]

 

[Nathan]

Those who believe in Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints didn't get to choose "OSAS" so you get stuck with the acronym assigned by your opponents as well.

Christians didn't get to choose the name "Christian" for themselves, and Calvinists didn't choose the name "Calvinists" for themselves.
[so suck it up, buttercup.]

Fair enough. lol

But we have to define it some how eh? Because I believe in Eternal Security and Perseverance of the Saints......but I don't believe in OSAS.

 

[Nathan]

Do you believe in Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints apart, or if a person is separated, from Christ?

 

[atpollard]

If you read the rest of Rev 21, specifically Rev 21:8, you'll read that not all will inherit the New Earth.

Sorry, you are not correctly applying Revelation 21. The entire context is after God has made all things new. The time for human choice is long past. It is a statement of fact about how things are in the new heaven and earth.

There may be verses that support human acceptance and rejection of salvation, but it is not found in Revelation 21.

Revelation 21:1-6 [NKJV]
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe in Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints apart, or if a person is separated, from Christ?

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:3-14
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:11-21
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I believe that a person being apart from Christ after truly being IN CHRIST is an absurdity. It would be like asking "What if I decided I wanted to be physically unborn? To reenter the womb and merge cells until I could just split back into a sperm and egg again ... BECAUSE I CHANGED MY MIND ABOUT BEING BORN!" It is a question of complete nonsense, on many, many levels. At the most basic level, it fails to understand what it means to be born. The baby did not "decide" to be born. It cannot decide to be unborn.

What hubris of man to think that we have the power to overwrite the will of the Creator. Where did God EVER ask anyone if they felt like doing anything? Did God ask Abram 'So would you like to leave your home and travel far, far away?' No, God TOLD Abram. Did God ask Moses if he was willing to go talk to Pharaoh, please? No, God TOLD Moses. Did God ask Saul to take a few days and think over whether he wanted to become a Christian Apostle? No, God TOLD Saul (Paul) and had it all planned out in advance.

Only Jesus had a choice. Only God incarnate had a choice. Jesus CHOSE to obey the Father.
Who are we to think that we get to choose to oppose the will of God?
How small is God that he cannot finish what he started?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

One can rebel for a season, and suffer correction at the hand of a loving Father designed to break something within us that needs breaking, to teach us something valuable and then, like the Prodigal Son who never stopped being a son, to comfort us and restore us and welcome us back into the household (In the Father's eyes, we never left the family).

 

[Nathan]

I believe that a person being apart from Christ after truly being IN CHRIST is an absurdity. It would be like asking "What if I decided I wanted to be physically unborn? To reenter the womb and merge cells until I could just split back into a sperm and egg again ... BECAUSE I CHANGED MY MIND ABOUT BEING BORN!" It is a question of complete nonsense, on many, many levels. At the most basic level, it fails to understand what it means to be born. The baby did not "decide" to be born. It cannot decide to be unborn.

What hubris of man to think that we have the power to overwrite the will of the Creator. Where did God EVER ask anyone if they felt like doing anything? Did God ask Abram 'So would you like to leave your home and travel far, far away?' No, God TOLD Abram. Did God ask Moses if he was willing to go talk to Pharaoh, please? No, God TOLD Moses. Did God ask Saul to take a few days and think over whether he wanted to become a Christian Apostle? No, God TOLD Saul (Paul) and had it all planned out in advance.

Only Jesus had a choice. Only God incarnate had a choice. Jesus CHOSE to obey the Father.
Who are we to think that we get to choose to oppose the will of God?
How small is God that he cannot finish what he started?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

One can rebel for a season, and suffer correction at the hand of a loving Father designed to break something within us that needs breaking, to teach us something valuable and then, like the Prodigal Son who never stopped being a son, to comfort us and restore us and welcome us back into the household (In the Father's eyes, we never left the family).

I've heard this before but it confuses me greatly. Why do people talk about being "unborn"? I have never heard anyone against OSAS speak in this manner. The baby may not be unborn, but it can die. It can cease to exist. Just because it was born does not mean it lives forever.

I see now, this is coming from the idea that man has no will. That would be a different topic. If man had no free will, and if God wanted something to happen and it always happened, then how come we even talk about believing in the first place? Everyone in the world will be saved, because it specifically states in the Bible that God does not wish that anyone perish.

We have a choice. I am not sure why we think we don't. I have never seen any passages state we don't, but find many that say we do. Why would Jesus stand at the door and knock? Who ever will?

Did the father make the prodigal son come back? Or was it a decision of the son's to return?

 

[Nathan]

Matthew 23:37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

How do we not see free will in people? This is Jesus speaking. They had no will to choose?

 

[atpollard]

I've heard this before but it confuses me greatly. Why do people talk about being "unborn"? I have never heard anyone against OSAS speak in this manner. The baby may not be unborn, but it can die. It can cease to exist. Just because it was born does not mean it lives forever.

This comes from the conversation with Nicodemus.
The baby born of the spirit into eternal life can die?
So God was unable to care for and protect the baby he had given new life to?
Yes babies can die, but remember, you are not talking about an outside event, but a decision of the baby.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
You are speaking of the baby making a choice to later undo the gift of God. The baby did not just happen to die, it chose to die and God was unable to stop it. That is the scenario that is being proposed. That is closer to the baby choosing to be "unborn".

I see now, this is coming from the idea that man has no will. That would be a different topic. If man had no free will, and if God wanted something to happen and it always happened, then how come we even talk about believing in the first place? Everyone in the world will be saved, because it specifically states in the Bible that God does not wish that anyone perish.

We have a choice. I am not sure why we think we don't. I have never seen any passages state we don't, but find many that say we do. Why would Jesus stand at the door and knock? Who ever will?

Not 'no will'. It is subtler than that.
Natural man is incapable of choosing good (the old man's heart of stone), thus man cannot save himself.
God transforms the heart into a heart that IS capable of choosing Good or Evil.
Salvation is the transformation of the man from the inside where
1. The work is begun (Philippians 1:6)
2. The Holy Spirit takes residence (Ephesians 1:11-14)
At this point the monergistinc SALVATION is complete and the man is equipped to participate in the synergistic SANCTIFICATION.
Man has control over his progress from Salvation to Glorification (free will is actually restored, rather than lost by salvation), but man cannot undo what God has done because it (monergistic salvation) was not a work of man in the first place.

Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

Is this true?
What does it mean for a believer?

Did the father make the prodigal son come back? Or was it a decision of the son's to return?

Did the son really just wake up one day, change his mind, realize that he had acted like a jerk and just go home to ask his father's forgiveness? No. First, he did everything in his power to do things his way and on his terms. Even after that failed, he desperately tried to find other work to avoid having to return to his father. Only when faced with starvation, as a last resort, did the son reluctantly return home. He had been broken (crushed by sin and the world) and defeated. He was returning home humbled (changed by the lesson learned). He was returning home seeking some mercy, but never expecting restoration.

The son DID NOT decide to return home, circumstances drove him home. The father in the story was not in control of the circumstances that drove the son back to him, the father was only grateful for the results. GOD (our Father) is responsible for all of the circumstances, including those that drive His prodigal sons home. Which is what I said:

One can rebel for a season, and suffer correction at the hand of a loving Father designed to break something within us that needs breaking, to teach us something valuable and then, like the Prodigal Son who never stopped being a son, to comfort us and restore us and welcome us back into the household (In the Father's eyes, we never left the family).

PS. Great talk.

 

[Nathan]

This comes from the conversation with Nicodemus.
The baby born of the spirit into eternal life can die?
So God was unable to care for and protect the baby he had given new life to?
Yes babies can die, but remember, you are not talking about an outside event, but a decision of the baby.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
You are speaking of the baby making a choice to later undo the gift of God. The baby did not just happen to die, it chose to die and God was unable to stop it. That is the scenario that is being proposed. That is closer to the baby choosing to be "unborn".


Not 'no will'. It is subtler than that.
Natural man is incapable of choosing good (the old man's heart of stone), thus man cannot save himself.
God transforms the heart into a heart that IS capable of choosing Good or Evil.
Salvation is the transformation of the man from the inside where
1. The work is begun (Philippians 1:6)
2. The Holy Spirit takes residence (Ephesians 1:11-14)
At this point the monergistinc SALVATION is complete and the man is equipped to participate in the synergistic SANCTIFICATION.
Man has control over his progress from Salvation to Glorification (free will is actually restored, rather than lost by salvation), but man cannot undo what God has done because it (monergistic salvation) was not a work of man in the first place.

Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

Is this true?
What does it mean for a believer?


Did the son really just wake up one day, change his mind, realize that he had acted like a jerk and just go home to ask his father's forgiveness? No. First, he did everything in his power to do things his way and on his terms. Even after that failed, he desperately tried to find other work to avoid having to return to his father. Only when faced with starvation, as a last resort, did the son reluctantly return home. He had been broken (crushed by sin and the world) and defeated. He was returning home humbled (changed by the lesson learned). He was returning home seeking some mercy, but never expecting restoration.

The son DID NOT decide to return home, circumstances drove him home. The father in the story was not in control of the circumstances that drove the son back to him, the father was only grateful for the results. GOD (our Father) is responsible for all of the circumstances, including those that drive His prodigal sons home. Which is what I said:



PS. Great talk.

I was just going to type another post because I think I had understood what your thinking. Sure enough, I saw this and its what I thought. But I think a few questions have to be asked in order to make sure I understand. First I'll answer yours.

You assume that I think a believer always stays a baby, and that in their infancy in Christ, they can somehow walk away unknowingly. That's not true, I do not believe that. If we were going to try and put an analogy on it, look up the youngest person to have ever committed suicide. I assure you, its not just adults that take their own life. So please do not suppose that I think a babe in Christ will fall away. I do not believe that at all. In fact, I will say that a babe in Christ cannot fall away. But please understand, that just as babies never remain babies in real life, neither do believers in Christ.

You state that man cannot undo what God has done. I believe that also. So did God make man believe in Christ for salvation? Or is that something man did because God allowed it? If man believed because God allowed it, why wouldn't we also understand that God will allow man to not believe?

Proverbs 21:1 - I most definitely think its true. For a believer it means God hand will guide the heart of man as He see's fit. Why do you suppose that mans heart can not dry up though?

Yes, the son did wake up one day and change his mind. It happened after a series of events, but he did make the decision - it was not made for him. The son did not have to return home, there is nothing indicating that it was anything other than a choice of his. You can say "circumstances", but it was still his choice. Your referring to the father in the story as God in one sentence, then stating he is not in another. I am confused.

If you would, I could ask some questions that might help me better understand your thoughts.

Do you believe that eternal life is given to us now? I ask this because of your example of the baby.

Do you believe God disallows believers to commit certain sins? I am very confused on this because you seem like you believe God does give us free will, but at the same time it may be "limited" free will?

Do you believe faith is needed after the new birth? If so, what purpose does faith serve in our life?

 

[Nathan]

I think we need to add a definition to your list.

Eternal Life = ?

 

[atpollard]

You don't waste time with easy questions, do you?

Do you believe that eternal life is given to us now? I ask this because of your example of the baby.

Yes. I believe that in eternity past God knew that mankind would sin, that He would provide a just path to redemption that anyone and everyone was capable of doing, and that no man or woman would actually choose to do what is required. (Romans 3:10-18)

I believe that the reality that no one would be saved if God left any part of it up to man was unacceptable to God, therefore, God chose to foreknow (fore love) some. The elect, his sheep. That for these people, eternal destiny is a matter of God's good purpose and eternal glory. So they have ETERNAL LIFE before they are born. Through no personal merit, but because God wills it so.

Do you believe God disallows believers to commit certain sins? I am very confused on this because you seem like you believe God does give us free will, but at the same time it may be "limited" free will?

All free will is limited. I desire to flap my arms and fly, but physics limits my choices to what is possible. Is a man a thief because he steals, or does a man steal because he is a thief? Who chooses of their free will to be mentally ill or suffer a drug addiction? Why don't people just exercise free will and quit smoking, or pornography? So absolute free will is already a myth.

A truth in life is that, by and large, people will be who they are. The person who overspends because buying stuff fills some emotional need and ends up in deep debt, if rescued from that debt, will immediately go back to the destructive behavior that they just pledged to never do again.

To answer your question directly, yes.
On the one hand, God is the only one that I have met who actually seems to be able to change human behavior. Only God can make the drunkard, sober. Can make the liar, honest. Can change the heart of the thief and make him want to work.

On the other hand, and directly relevant to the discussion on walking away from God, maybe you can. I have no power over anyone else and God does not consult with me, but I cannot. I do not state that as opinion, but as fact. I was there. I tried. I know EXACTLY how it feels to opose the will of God and exactly what it would have taken to walk away from my salvation. I was unable to do it. I wanted to. I was prepared to. God literally said "No." The first, last and only time I ever heard him. One syllable that knocked me off my feet.

So no scripture or logic argument can override my empirical evidence to the contrary. You may be able to lose your salvation, I have no idea, but I cannot lose mine.

Do you believe faith is needed after the new birth? If so, what purpose does faith serve in our life?

Yes. New birth is not a goal, it is more like a metamorphosis. A caterpillar enters a chrysalis and a butterfly emerges. Faith is the air beneath the wings that holds the butterfly aloft. We are a new creation. We have a new life. We serve a purpose ... not a new purpose, because before, we had no purpose but only a zombie-like existence as an animated corpse. Now we have a work to do, prearranged by God and designed perfectly to match our gifts and personality. What we do has eternal consequences because we are the whiskers on the brush that God is painting the canvas of His great plan. Why would anyone want to give up on being part of this? How could they?

Down to earth. Down to a practical level. Faith allows us to see the hand of God in the hard times. When one brother is murdered and a second commits suicide because he believes that the next life will be better than this one and he just can't bear the sadness any longer ... Faith allows me to believe that God is still good and that he still does things for a reason.

So that when James returns to church after falling into crack again and says "life is hard", I can say "I know, but God will get us through. We'll just huddle together and get through this."

I cannot imagine life without faith.
Arthur

 

[atpollard]

I think we need to add a definition to your list.
Eternal Life = ?

I think it means living forever ... as in not dying forever.

 

[Nathan]

Time is precious I see exactly where you are coming from now. Thank you!

Eternal Life before one is even born. Interesting. Its not that I do not believe that God knows who and who will not believe, and knew before He created the world - its just that I do not find that Eternal Life is given before birth, as in actually given. Is this clear in the Bible? Passage we can reference? Would be great to have a few to reference. It is interesting that the very first lie ever recorded was on this very subject.

"you will not surely die......."


You pose a very good question, why would someone want to walk away. But I got a better one if it were not possible, why would we be warned against it? Or, maybe those warnings are for the ones who are not predestined, but decided to believe on their own?

That would seem to be a scary place. I may or may not be one of the predestined ones. How do I know I am or am not?

 

[Nathan]

I think it means living forever ... as in not dying forever.

Spiritually, not physically correct?

 

[Nathan]

Ok, now I am full of questions.

These ones who are given eternal life before birth, do they sin? If they do sin, is their sin different than people who do not receive eternal life before birth?

 

[atpollard]

That would seem to be a scary place. I may or may not be one of the predestined ones. How do I know I am or am not?

One of the few really big questions that I have a good answer for ... if you were not predestined, then the matter would not bother you at all:
"The one who dies with the most toys, wins." was the motto of those I grew up with. The ones still alive view me as one of those religious nuts. I suspect that if the thought of predestination or hell ever enters their thoughts, it is only for a few minutes and is nothing another beer will not fix.

I don't see it in Jesus nature to slam the door on anyone who wants in. It seems more like Jesus dragging some in kicking and screaming until they come to their senses.

 

[Nathan]

One of the few really big questions that I have a good answer for ... if you were not predestined, then the matter would not bother you at all:
"The one who dies with the most toys, wins." was the motto of those I grew up with. The ones still alive view me as one of those religious nuts. I suspect that if the thought of predestination or hell ever enters their thoughts, it is only for a few minutes and is nothing another beer will not fix.

I don't see it in Jesus nature to slam the door on anyone who wants in. It seems more like Jesus dragging some in kicking and screaming until they come to their senses.

But why would they need to come to their senses? If they are predestined to go, wouldn't they just go?

Why would the Bible always talk about Christ sacrifice for the world? Wouldn't the writers know that it was just for the predestined ones?

So if the matter bothers me, then I am predestined. Interesting. Why would it bother me? If I was predestined, had no choice in the matter, why wouldn't God put my mind at ease?

 

[atpollard]

Spiritually, not physically correct?

Yup.