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What is soul and what is spirit?

concerning Hebrews 4:12

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD]
Homilies on the Epistle to the Hebrews
Homily 7 on Hebrews
"Piercing," he says, "even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit." What is this? He hinted at something more fearful. Either that He divides the spirit from the soul, or that He pierces even through them disembodied, not as a sword through bodies only. Here he shows, that the soul also is punished, and that it thoroughly searches out the most inward things, piercing wholly through the whole man.

I wish nadab had posted the whole Catholic Encyclopedia entries for spirit and soul. They can be read here spirit - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14220b.htm soul - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

a relevant snippet from spirit.

In Theology, the uses of the word are various. In the New Testament, it signifies sometimes the soul of man (generally its highest part, e.g., "the spirit is willing"), sometimes the supernatural action of God in man, sometimes the Holy Ghost ("the Spirit of Truth Whom the world cannot receive"). The use of this term to signify the supernatural life of grace is the explanation of St. Paul's language about the spiritual and the carnal man and his enumeration of the three elements, spirit, soul, and body, which gave occasion to the error of the Trichotomists (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Ephesians 4:23).

here is a link to a presbyterian who wrote an article explaining the inherent problems with the trichotomist view. http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/0303/ ... anchez.php
 
The soul is us as a person and does die, and not something separate from the body. The teaching of the immortality, meaning literally "deathlessness", of the soul did not originate from the Bible, but rather from pagan sources. Should not the Bible be our source for understanding the meaning of soul rather than the teachings, such as Greek mythology ?

For example, at Genesis 2:7, of Adam, it says that "Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."(American Standard Version) The apostle Paul, in quoting from Genesis 2:7 said: " And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."(1Cor 15:45, King James Bible)

Just as Jesus was "made a quickening spirit" in order to enter heaven, not possessing one, Adam was "made a living soul", not possessing one. When one completes his years of schooling and becomes a medical doctor, does he possess one or is he one ? So likewise was Adam "made a living soul", not possessing one. Another example is at Isaiah 53:12, where it says prophetically of Jesus: " Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death:"(King James Bible) Jesus himself said, in basically quoting this scripture, that "my soul is deeply grieved, even to death."(Matt 26:38)

Some will turn to Matthew 10:28, saying that this supports that the soul is immortal, opening to the first part of what Jesus said is: "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:" Yet Jesus continues and says that "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."(King James Bible) Hence, Jesus identifies that the soul is not immortal, but can be destroyed and in "hell" at that. At Jeremiah 2:34, it says that the soul has blood, for it reads: "Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents." (King James Bible)

At Leviticus 17:10, it says that "whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."(King James Bible) Hence, the soul has blood, and is condemned for eating blood and can be "cut off" or die. At Leviticus 23:30, God told the nation of Israel, that "whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day (day of atonement), the same soul will I destroy from among the people."(King James Bible)

At Ezekiel 13:19, God spoke of those women who were ' hunting souls', asking: "And will you profane me towards my people for the handfuls of barley and for the morsels of bread, in order to put to death the souls that ought not to die, and in order to preserve alive the souls that ought not to live by your lie to my people ?"

Hence, the Bible clearly identifies that the soul is not immortal, but can die. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) In addition, at Acts 3:23, Peter, in quoting from Deuteronomy 18, said that " it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."(King James Bible) Hence, the soul can be destroyed or become non-existent.

The philosopher Plato, of the fourth century B.C.E., did much to propagate the Greek notion of immortality of the soul. Because the Grecian philosophers interested themselves in the ultimate questions of life, their views also served to shape the religious views of the people. Socrates, of the fifth century B.C.E., taught the immortality of the human soul. In Phaedo (64C, 105E), Plato quotes Socrates’ conversation with two of his colleagues: “‘Do we think there is such a thing as death? . . . We believe, do we not, that death is the separation of the soul from the body, and that the state of being dead is the state in which the body is separated from the soul and exists alone by itself and the soul is separated from the body and exists alone by itself? Is death anything other than this?’ ‘No, it is this,’ he said. ‘And the soul does not admit death?’ ‘No.’†Socrates continues, “‘Then the soul is immortal.’ ‘Yes.’â€Â

Later, Josephus also provides details concerning the beliefs of the Pharisees. He observes: “They believe that souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot of evil souls, while the good souls receive an easy passage to a new life.†(Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 14 [i, 3]) “Every soul, they maintain, is imperishable, but the soul of the good alone passes into another body, while the souls of the wicked suffer eternal punishment.â€Â(The Jewish War, II, 162, 163 (viii, 14).

Were the Pharisees following what God had written in the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the Old Testament ? Jesus sternly told them, after their condemnation of Jesus disciples for not washing their hands before a meal, "Why is it you also overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition ? "(Matt 15:2,3) Thus, these put "tradition" above God's word, his commandments.(Matt 15:4-6) And that "tradition" also included teaching that the soul is immortal, surviving death, that came from Grecian philosophy.

Thus, The Interpreter’s Bible (Vol. II, p. 1015), commenting on 1 Samuel 25:29, observes that “the idea of man as consisting of body and soul which are separated at death is not Hebrew but Greek.†(edited by G. Buttrick, 1953) The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible (edited by G. Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 1, p. 802), further says that "it is natural that death should sometimes be represented as the disappearance of this nephesh (Gen. 35:18; I Kings 17:21; Jer. 15:9; Jonah 4:3). The ‘departure’ of the nephesh must be viewed as a figure of speech, for it does not continue to exist independently of the body, but dies with it (Num. 31:19; Judg. 16:30; Ezek. 13:19). No biblical text authorizes the statement that the ‘soul’ is separated from the body at the moment of death.â€Â

The Roman Catholic translation, The New American Bible, in its “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms†(pp. 27, 28), says: “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.â€Â-Edition published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970.

In the Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30), Professor C. A. Briggs, as a result of detailed analysis of the use of the Hebrew word for soul - ne´phesh, observed: "Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from ne´phesh in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret."

Thus, due to the churches teaching of "soul" as being immortal, the "incautious reader" follows it. However, the Bible teaches that the soul is us as a person, with all our desires and does die, having no immortality. Even animals are souls for Number 31:28 speaks of " one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:"
 
nadab said:
The soul is us as a person and does die, and not something separate from the body. The teaching of the immortality, meaning literally "deathlessness", of the soul did not originate from the Bible, but rather from pagan sources. Should not the Bible be our source for understanding the meaning of soul rather than the teachings, such as Greek mythology ?
"

There are two ways in which we talk about death. The first physical death which is seperation of the body and soul. The second is spiritual death which is both the soul and resurrected body seperated from God.

To be human which is how God made us is to be body and soul united and that is the way in which we will spend eternity.

I am told that in antiquity they had a simple way to understand that we consist of body and soul known as the dead mule test. When someone dies the body is still present everything is physically still there heart, lungs, brain, every atom, etc. There is only one thing missing that which animated it, its soul. You may also want to see Revelations there are some interesting activities going on there.

Tertullian a Christian who was alive at the time of these philosophers and had some harsher words than you about them said "The apostle (speaking of Paul), so far back as his own time, foresaw, indeed, that philosophy would do violent injury to the truth. Colossians 2:8 This admonition about false philosophy he was induced to offer after he had been at Athens, had become acquainted with that loquacious city, and had there had a taste of its huckstering wiseacres and talkers. In like manner is the treatment of the soul according to the sophistical doctrines of men which mix their wine with water. Isaiah 1:22 Some of them deny the immortality of the soul; others affirm that it is immortal, and something more. Some raise disputes about its substance; others about its form; others, again, respecting each of its several faculties.

Your personal interpretation is highly suspect and one Tertullian ironically considers of pagan philosophy. That nothing impure can be in the presence of God does not deny that it will exist away from his presence in a state known as hell. From your personal teaching it would seem logical from which to conclude that there is no hell only oblivion for those who reject God. Which is a discussion that is off topic but I would be interested to at least hear if that summation is correct.
 
It is the spirit that is in a man, that, when absent, all physical life ends. The spirit is the life that God has given. When the spirit goes out of a man, he dies physically. The soul--the personality--what makes you you, goes with it.
 
The soul is not the personality. The soul is the animating force of the body. All living things have souls (animating forces), cats, dogs, plants, bugs... ...but only in man is the soul an immortal, spiritual soul. Thus, there can be no seperation of spirit and soul.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
soul
–noun
1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/soul
 
Alabaster said:
It is the spirit that is in a man, that, when absent, all physical life ends. The spirit is the life that God has given. When the spirit goes out of a man, he dies physically. The soul--the personality--what makes you you, goes with it.

Some maintain that there is within the soul a natural substance the spirit which is different from it: as if to have life the function of the soul were one thing; and to emit breath the alleged function of the spirit were another thing...

Being thus single, simple, and entire in itself, (this in regarding the soul) it is as incapable of being composed and put together from external constituents, as it is of being divided in and of itself, inasmuch as it is indissoluble. For if it had been possible to construct it and to destroy it, it would no longer be immortal. Since, however, it is not mortal, it is also incapable of dissolution and division. Now, to be divided means to be dissolved, and to be dissolved means to die. Yet (philosophers) have divided the soul into parts: Plato, for instance, into two; Zeno into three;... - Tertullian "A Treatise on the Soul"

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person. But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.
 
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.

The spirit is the part of us that comes alive at salvation, and it is the soul that is continually becoming renewed in Christ, and becoming more like Him, in response to our born-again spirit.
 
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.

The spirit is the part of us that comes alive at salvation, and it is the soul that is continually becoming renewed in Christ, and becoming more like Him, in response to our born-again spirit.

The Tricotomitrist view you are espousing is actually a relatively modern teaching and cannot be attributed to Christianity universal who has always held the soul to be perfectly simple (not simple as in easy to understand). This is known as Dichotomism.
 
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.....

Which Christians would those be? The vast majority of Christians do NOT believe that, since protestants make up a distinct minority of Christians
 
one_lost_coin said:
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.

The spirit is the part of us that comes alive at salvation, and it is the soul that is continually becoming renewed in Christ, and becoming more like Him, in response to our born-again spirit.

That is actually a modern teaching and cannot be attributed to Christianity who has always held the soul to be a perfectly simple (not simple as in easy to understand).

Correct !!
 
Catholic Crusader said:
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.....

Which Christians would those be? The vast majority of Christians do NOT believe that, since protestants make up a distinct minority of Christians


You may be surprised to know many protestants reject that teaching as heresy also. It may also be the minority view among them. Although I am told the nondenom seem to be latching onto it.
 
one_lost_coin said:
[quote="Catholic Crusader":a4cd9]
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.....

Which Christians would those be? The vast majority of Christians do NOT believe that, since protestants make up a distinct minority of Christians


You may be surprised to know many protestants reject that teaching as heresy also. It may also be the minority view among them. Although I am told the nondenom seem to be latching onto it.[/quote:a4cd9]
Oh, I'm not surprised. Most protestants have a good head on their shoulders. Its the fanatic Fundies that make everyone else look bad
 
Catholic Crusader said:
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.....

Which Christians would those be? The vast majority of Christians do NOT believe that, since protestants make up a distinct minority of Christians


Can't we all just be known as Christians?
 
aLoneVoice said:
Can't we all just be known as Christians?
You tell me.

And quit searching my posts and stalking me. I'm tired of seeing your posts right after mine in every thread. If you want to quarrel, do it in the debate forum.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
aLoneVoice said:
Can't we all just be known as Christians?
You tell me.

And quit searching my posts and stalking me. I'm tired of seeing your posts right after mine in every thread. If you want to quarrel, do it in the debate forum.

CC, since you are one of the most active posters, it is almost impossible to respond to a thread that doesn't have as you as the last post.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.
Which Christians would those be? The vast majority of Christians do NOT believe that, since protestants make up a distinct minority of Christians

Forget about labels, sir. Christians the world over do believe this.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Catholic Crusader said:
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.
Which Christians would those be? The vast majority of Christians do NOT believe that, since protestants make up a distinct minority of Christians

Can't we all just be known as Christians?

Obviously not, around these parts. It appears to be a fun hobby to pigeon-hole people.
 
Alabaster said:
Catholic Crusader said:
Alabaster said:
The soul, apart from secular dictionaries, is commonly believed, by Christians, to be the seat of the mind--the will, emotions, and the intellect. The personality is housed within the soul.
Which Christians would those be? The vast majority of Christians do NOT believe that, since protestants make up a distinct minority of Christians

Forget about labels, sir. Christians the world over do believe this.
Okay, I'll rephrase: The vast majority of Christians do not believe this. Period. Your statement without any statistical foundation.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
Okay, I'll rephrase: The vast majority of Christians do not believe this. Period. Your statement without any statistical foundation.

Nevertheless, I am convinced of the truth of my belief. There is nothing in scripture that teaches otherwise. My fine teachers have taught it, and all Christians I know and who teach thousands do believe it, and that is okay with me.

The Holy Spirit attests to the truth of it within me.
 
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