What is soul and what is spirit?

[CP_Mike]

It is the spirit that is in a man, that, when absent, all physical life ends. The spirit is the life that God has given. When the spirit goes out of a man, he dies physically. The soul--the personality--what makes you you, goes with it.

Hi,
I have to disagree. And here are the scriptures:

'Soul' in the bble has been translated as someone else has posted from the Hebrew word 'Nephesh' and the greek word 'psuche'. The Hebrews believed when someone dies, the 'nephesh ceased to be' and disappeared draining awaty with the blood. The were no longer 'nepshesh (Gen 2:7), but 'Rephaim' (shadows) in sheol where death is not extinction, rather the weakest form of life. (Ps 88:10-12)

Numbers 23:10 Let my nephesh die the death of the righteous
Judges 16:30 Let my nephesh die with the philistines.
DT12:23 The nephesh is in the blood.

You will not find one reference to the soul being the 'you' trapped ina flesh body. This teaching is coming out of Greek philosophy that has polluted Chrisitan thinking. You will not find 'eternal' or immortal' or the notion of disembodied souls anywhere in the bible. The Hebrew did not have a view that man was a triune being, but as a totality where 'soul', 'heart. 'body', flesh', 'spirit' were aspects of the whole person from a differing point of view.

 

[Alabaster]

As the personality is housed within the soul, it isn't trapped--it exists there. It's the essence of who we are. It goes with our spirit at physical death. In heaven or in hell, we are still ourselves!

 

[Paidion]

Psalm 6:4,5 Turn, O Yahweh, save my life; deliver me for the sake of your steadfast love. For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who can give you praise?

Psalm 146:3,4 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his thoughts have perished.

Do these statements from Psalms say what they seem to say? That now is the time to praise God, since after death we have no remembrance of God, for our thoughts have perished. We have no consciousness.

 

[Paidion]

All it means is that when we die our brains no longer function---get it?

It certainly means that, all right.

But if the personality is "housed within the soul" as you say, and goes to heaven or hell at death, then why could the Psalmist not continue to "remember" God and praise him after his "personality" had departed to heaven?

 

[CP_Mike]

As the personality is housed within the soul, it isn't trapped--it exists there. It's the essence of who we are. It goes with our spirit at physical death. In heaven or in hell, we are still ourselves!

I can't see that anywhere in scripture.

Nephesh - Psyche - Soul

The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.
'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.

 

[Free]

Everyone better start playing nice or I'll shut this thread down.

Thanks. :D


As a side note: the truth of a matter is independent of which philosophy or culture may have first stated it.

 

[Alabaster]

All it means is that when we die our brains no longer function---get it?

It certainly means that, all right.

But if the personality is "housed within the soul" as you say, and goes to heaven or hell at death, then why could the Psalmist not continue to "remember" God and praise him after his "personality" had departed to heaven?

Because the psalmist was considering the grave only--Sheol.

 

[nadab]

When Jesus walked the earth, he condemned the Pharisees for their "traditions", which made God's word "void", saying that "you have made the word of God invalid because of your traditions"....Isaiah aptly prophecied about you, when he said....It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines".(Matt 15:6, 7,9) The Pharisees, having accepted and promoted the immortality of the soul from Grecian philosophers, though contrary to scripture, Jesus thus gave a condemnation of them.

Jesus further told his apostles to "keep your eyes open and watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees", meaning to "watch out, not for the leaven of the loaves, but for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees".(Matt 16:6,12) Hence, he warned his apostles to guard against listening to the false religious teachings that these taught as "truth", including the teaching of the immortality of the soul.

Jesus himself was well aware of the prophetic statement at Isaiah 53:12 regarding him, whereby it said that "he poured out his soul to the very death".(Matt 26:38) He also understood Ecclesiates 9:5,6 in which it says that "the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they have anymore wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun". Hence, verse 10 identifies that those who go to "sheol", gravedom or the common grave of mankind, that there is "no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom" there.

Thus, when a person dies, his soul dies, just as Ezekiel 18:4, 20 brings to our attention, for we are all "sinners". All their "love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished". He or she becomes non-existent, for Psalms 115:17 says that "the dead themselves do not praise Jah, nor do any going down into silence". A person who has died goes "down into silence", awaiting a resurrection for those who are in God's memory.(Acts 24:15)

If the soul was immortal, then there would be no need of a resurrection, for these have not really died. However, the word resurrection come from the Greek word a·na´sta·sis and literally means “raising up; standing up.†Those that have died, a "deceased soul"(Lev 19:28) and who are resurrected, are then ' raised up' or 'stand up' again as living persons, as a living soul. That is why when God breathed into Adam the "breath of life"(Hebrew form of neshamah), that Adam "became a living soul".(Hebrew nephesh from a root meaning "breathe", and literally can mean "breather", Gen 2:7)

Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines nephesh as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.†Thus Adam became a "living soul"(ne´phesh chai·yah´) as opposed to a "dead soul".(Lev 21:11, naph·shoth´meth, meaning literally "souls of one dead")

Abraham was told by God concerning the covenant he made with him, that "the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant". (Gen 17:14, King James Bible ) Thus, the soul can live or it can die or be "cut off ". Abraham's nephew Lot, in responding to the angels warning to flee the city of Sodom, told them: "Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one? ) and my soul shall live". (Gen 19:20, King James Bible ) Hence, Lot was requesting of the angels to flee to a nearby city in order for his soul or him as person with life, to continue living.

And those of the nation of Israel that disregarded the Sabbath, were told: "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you : every one that defileth it shall be put to death : for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. " (Exodus 31:14, King James Bible ) Likewise of the Passover, for God said that "the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people."(Numbers 9:13, King James Bible )

When the nation of Israel were traveling in the wilderness, after having left the land of Egypt, they complainingly said of the manna: "But now our soul has dried away : there is nothing at all , beside this manna, before our eyes". (Numbers 11:6, King James Bible ) At Leviticus 7:20, it says: "But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from among his people". (King James Bible ) And just before the nation of Israel entered the land of Canaan, Moses told the nation: "When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh : thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after". (Deut 12:20, King James Bible )

Therefore, the soul or a person with life, longs to "eat flesh", can be "dried away", has blood (Jer 2:34) and when someone dies, it can rightly be said that one's soul has died. For as Jesus said on the night before he died: "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death." (Matt 26:38, King James Bible ) He died the following day, praying to his Father to "entrust my spirit".(Luke 23:46) As a living soul he died, entrusting his "spirit" or life force to God, so that after having been in Hades or gravedom for three days, he was then resurrected, receiving his "spirit" or life-force back, ' standing up ' again as a spirit Son of God.(1 Cor 15:45)

Jesus used the word soul as meaning one's life, whether it be now or a future one, saying: "For whoever wants to save his soul (Greek psy·khe´ ) will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it. For what benefit will it be to a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul ? or what will a man give in exchange for his soul ? "(Matt 16:25,26) Earlier, Jesus had said that "whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it."(Matt 10:39)

Consequently, a person who wants to save their "soul" or life now by being unwilling to to follow Jesus example closely, will thus lose their "soul" or hope of living forever. On the other hand, those that "loses his soul for (Jesus) sake will find it."(his future life, by means of a resurrection) In speaking of "when the Son of man is to be revealed", said that "whoever seeks to keep his soul safe for himself will lose it, but whoever loses it will preserve it alive."(Luke 17:39)

Hence, anyone as a person, with all their desires and feelings, can lose his life as an intelligent person or "soul" permanently or can gain life or "soul", ' preserving it alive' forever. Shortly before his death, Jesus said: "He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul (loves less) in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life".(John 12:25) Of those who "conquered (Satan) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing", these did not "love their souls even in the face of death".(Rev 12:11) Hence, these lost their "souls" by death, but regain their lives again by means of a resurrection from the dead.

The apostle Paul wrote concerning Epaphroditus, that "because on account of the Lord's work he came quite near to death, exposing his soul to danger."(Phil 2:30) The apostle Peter spoke of ' purifying your souls' or one's life. The apostle John wrote that "because that one (Jesus) surrendered his soul for us; and we are under obligation to surrender our souls for our brothers."(1 John 3:16) One who follows Jesus perfect example, is willing to "surrender (or give up) his soul" or life now for their "brothers", just as Jesus "surrendered his soul (or life) for us".

 

[one_lost_coin]

Jesus himself was well aware of the prophetic statement at Isaiah 53:12 regarding him, whereby it said that "he poured out his soul to the very death".(Matt 26:38) He also understood Ecclesiates 9:5,6 in which it says that "the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they have anymore wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun". Hence, verse 10 identifies that those who go to "sheol", gravedom or the common grave of mankind, that there is "no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom" there.
Thus, when a person dies, his soul dies, just as Ezekiel 18:4, 20 brings to our attention, for we are all "sinners". All their "love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished". He or she becomes non-existent, for Psalms 115:17 says that "the dead themselves do not praise Jah, nor do any going down into silence". A person who has died goes "down into silence", awaiting a resurrection for those who are in God's memory.(Acts 24:15)

Jesus himself spoke of the bosom of Abraham. Your interpretation must fit with the whole bible and it does not. It actually doesn't even fit with the verses you are quoting.

In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.

Three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.
1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture."
2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church."
3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith. 82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

Haydock, Fr. George Leo [1774-1849 AD]
Haydock's Old Testament Commentary
Ecclesiastes 9 Ver. 5. Know nothing more, viz., As to the transactions of this world, in which they have now no part, unless it be revealed to them; neither have they any knowledge or power now of doing any thing to secure their eternal state, (if they have not taken care of it in their lifetime) nor can they now procure themselves any good, as the living always may do, by the grace of God. (Challoner)

Concerning Mattew 28
Theodoret of Cyr [393-457 AD]
Dialogues ("Eranistes" or "Polymorphus")
Dialogue 2 Eran.--Have you not heard the Lord saying "I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. ...I lay it down of myself that I might take it a again." And again, "Now is my soul troubled." And again, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful even unto deaths" and again David's words as interpreted by Peter "His soul was not left in hell neither did His flesh see corruption." These and similar passages clearly point out that God the Word assumed not only a body but also a soul.

Are you suggesting that when Jesus descended into hell/scheol to preach to the captives he was not doing anything because no part of Him existed and noone was there listening to Him. Was He talking to Himself? St. Peter didn't think so.

I think these questions pose some serious challenges to your interpretation.

 

[nadab]

Hello one_lost_coin,
If I may ask, what does Jesus speaking about the bosom of Abraham, such as the illustration he gave at Luke 16, have to do with the understanding of the soul ? The Bible clearly defines what the soul and spirit is. For those who are wishing to grasp the true meaning of these terms, without bias, these can see that the soul is us as a person, with our life, unless we become a "dead soul".(Num 6:6, or “soul of someone dead.†Heb., ne´phesh meth; LXX [Greek Septuagint], “deceased soulâ€Â; Sy [Syriac Peshitta], “soul of the deadâ€Â)

In addition, the Bible does not have "human authors", but rather one author, God (2 Tim 3:16) and whose name is Jehovah,(Ps 83:18) and who utilized about 40 different secretaries to write the 66 books of the Bible. What Isaiah was inspired to write concerning Jesus Christ at Isaiah 53:12, and in which Jesus basically restated at Matthew 26:38, helps individuals to recognize that the soul can die, that it is not immortal. Jesus gained immortality upon his resurrection from the dead as a spirit "son of God".(1 Cor 15:45,53)

And in regard to interpretations, Joseph told the chief of bakers and chief of the cupbearers: "Do not interpretations belong to God ?"(Gen 40:8) Hence, the gaining of understanding of key Bible truths, such as the soul and spirit, is done by means of God's spirit, guiding his people to grasp the true knowledge of God and is the laying of a foundation for grasping just who the true God is. Because the religious leaders had such a hold on the Jews, mixing Grecian philosophical teachings with God's word, such as the immortality of the soul, that on the night before he died, Jesus, in prayer to his Father, said: "Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you."(John 17:25)

At Ecclesiates 9:4, after Solomon had contrasted a "live dog" with a "dead lion", he then said that "the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."(Eccl 9:5) A "live dog" is much better off than a "dead lion", for this lion is "conscious of nothing at all", and his "power" has now gone. Thus, a person who has died, his ' thoughts have perished' (Ps 145:3), and therefore "conscious of nothing at all." He is in a state of "inactivity", with the cessation of all functions of life. One's soul has died.

And concerning Jesus, as God’s “only-begotten Sonâ€Â, ascending into ' hell/sheol', as seen at 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle Peter said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit."(1 Pet 3:18) Hence, his fleshly body died (and his soul or life as a person, for he was non-existent for parts of three days, Acts 2:24,27), but he was raised up as a spirit, and as such he could then preach or reiterate God’s future judgment of destruction (Mark 1:24; Jude 6) to the "spirits in prison", the angels who rebelled against God, and who materialized human bodies before the Noachian flood to marry the "daughters of men", fathering a hybrid generation known as Nephilim.(Gen 6:4, "giants" King James Bible) Jesus’ soul or life as a person was restored to him, being resurrected to life again as a spirit “son of Godâ€Â.

David, when on the run from King Saul and living in a cave, said that his “spirit fainted away within†him and that he requested for God to “bring (his) soul out of the dungeon “.(“prisonâ€Â, King James Bible).(Ps 142:3,7) Thus, David felt discouraged, downtrodden, his spirit or “will for livingâ€Â, (Encarta Dictionary) had “fainted away†from him, with his soul or him as a person, wishing to come out of the “dungeon†or cave where he was hiding from Saul. In the cave where he was hidden, he said that “no one was inquiring of (his) soulâ€Â,(verse 4) for he, as a soul, was concealed from King Saul, though he felt that his “soul†or him as a person, was in “prison†as an outlaw, unable to freely go about.(2 Sam 24:1-3)

The soul of a man can be kidnapped, for Deuternomy 24:7 says that “in case a man is found kidnapping a soul of his brothers of the sons of Israel.†Of Moses, after 40 years away from Egypt, God told him to “return to Egypt, because all the men who were hunting for your soul are dead.â€Â(Ex 4:19) The soul or a person, could be bought with money, for Leviticus 22:11 says that “in case a priest should purchase a soul, as a purchase with money.†A soul or slave could be purchased or bought under the Mosaic Law, kidnapped or be hunted. Thus, a soul is the person themselves, with all their desires.

A soul could also be put into irons or fetters, for Psalms 105:18 says that of Joseph, while in prison, “with fetters they afflicted his feet, into irons his souame.†The Bible further speaks of the soul as being “sleeplessâ€Â, for Psalms 119:28 says of the Psalmist: “My soul has been sleepless from grief.†We can have anxiety that causes us as a person or a soul to be unable to sleep.

 

[one_lost_coin]

I have gone through the translations on bible gateway for Deut 24:7, Psalm 105:18, Num 6:6 and I can't find your translation of the verses with the word soul in it anywhere. Are you doing your own translations? I find this abuse of scripture very troubling.

Jesus parable of Lazarus and the rich man is significant because Jesus told it. Jesus did not use false analogies. If Lazarus could not be comforted after death Jesus would not have told a parable saying he could.

In the Old Testament, Isaiah 14:9-17 indicates clearly that the dead are conscious, and the New Testament tells the same story. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how, after Jesus died on the cross, he "preached to the spirits in prison." If the dead were aware of nothing, his preaching would have been futile.

Try and remember Jesus is God and God cannot not exist for any amount of time as you propose. He did however die and the two truths only make sense one way and that isn't your way.

So to be absent from the body is not to be unconscious; rather, it enables one to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent or a tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt 10:28). Our souls live after the death of our bodies, since John "saw . . . the souls of those slaughtered . . . and they cried with a loud voice, saying . . . and they were told . . ." (Rev. 6:9-11). Because the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev. 5:8) and live in happiness (Rev. 14:13).

 

[one_lost_coin]

The Bible clearly defines what the soul and spirit is. For those who are wishing to grasp the true meaning of these terms, without bias, these can see that the soul is us as a person, with our life, unless we become a "dead soul".(Num 6:6, or “soul of someone dead.†Heb., ne´phesh meth; LXX [Greek Septuagint], “deceased soulâ€Â; Sy [Syriac Peshitta], “soul of the deadâ€Â)

every single one of these churches that authorized these translations all condemn your belief as heresy. It is your interpretation that is lacking these phrases do not mean, at all, what you say they do.

 

[CP_Mike]

It all comes down to of what a soul is.

If one reads the Greek idea of soul into these passages where the Hebrew word 'Nephesh' is, then it really is a nonsense.

If one reads the personal pronoun into this as 'Nepshesh' meant 'me' or 'him' to stand for the whole person, then it makes perfect sense.

The soul of a man can be kidnapped, for Deuternomy 24:7 says that “in case a man is found kidnapping a soul of his brothers of the sons of Israel.†Of Moses, after 40 years away from Egypt, God told him to “return to Egypt, because all the men who were hunting for your soul are dead.â€Â(Ex 4:19) The soul or a person, could be bought with money, for Leviticus 22:11 says that “in case a priest should purchase a soul, as a purchase with money.†A soul or slave could be purchased or bought under the Mosaic Law, kidnapped or be hunted. Thus, a soul is the person themselves, with all their desires.

A soul could also be put into irons or fetters, for Psalms 105:18 says that of Joseph, while in prison, “with fetters they afflicted his feet, into irons his soul came.†The Bible further speaks of the soul as being “sleeplessâ€Â, for Psalms 119:28 says of the Psalmist: “My soul has been sleepless from grief.†We can have anxiety that causes us as a person or a soul to be unable to sleep.

 

[one_lost_coin]

(1) first is that the soul, as an intellectual and therefore simple substance, is naturally incorruptible and immortal (Summa Theologica 1:75:6).

(2) second is that the soul is not man (ST 1:75: 4). Even in the common speech of the people, that quarry of sound thinking, man is not said to be a soul but to have a soul.

(3) third is that as man is not a soul, man is a soul and body. In other words, the body belongs essentially and not accidentally to the personality of man. It is well nigh incredible how common is a certain mild form of Manicheism, which seems to depreciate the human body as almost the sole source of sin, instead of being but a joint source and perhaps the lesser source in union with the soul. . . .

(4) fourth is the goodness not only of the body but of matter.

(5) fifth is that the soul is the causa efficiens of the body from the moment of its union to the body (ST Supp. 80:1). When the soul is reunited to such a part of its body as will allow us to call it the same body, we may well see an instantaneous recapitulation of the formative process.

(6) Perhaps in this hard matter of the bodily resurrection some hope of recalling men to unity may be found in the condition of the risen body. Theology lays it down that not the substance of the body but only its condition shall be changed. Body will not become spirit, but, while remaining body, it will become pliant and obedient to the spirit. Time and space will still remain. Some of the soul's supremacy over time and space will be given by the soul as a dowry to the body.

 

[CP_Mike]

(1) first is that the soul, as an intellectual and therefore simple substance, is naturally incorruptible and immortal (Summa Theologica 1:75:6).

Hi Lost coin,
The Hebrews had no concept of an immortal soul.

Lets look at these scriptures again

Judges 16:30

Let me (Nephesh) die with the Philitines

Numbers 23:10

Let me (nephesh) die the death of the Righteous..

There is no immortal soul anywhere in the bible. You will not find 'immortal' or 'eternal' with 'Nephesh' (soul) or 'Psuche.

(2) second is that the soul is not man (ST 1:75: 4). Even in the common speech of the people, that quarry of sound thinking, man is not said to be a soul but to have a soul.

Basic biblical belief is that man does not have a soul, but is a soul.

Genesis 2:7... and man became a living soul

(3) third is that as man is not a soul, man is a soul and body. In other words, the body belongs essentially and not accidentally to the personality of man. It is well nigh incredible how common is a certain mild form of Manicheism, which seems to depreciate the human body as almost the sole source of sin, instead of being but a joint source and perhaps the lesser source in union with the soul. . . .


(4) fourth is the goodness not only of the body but of matter.

(5) fifth is that the soul is the causa efficiens of the body from the moment of its union to the body (ST Supp. 80:1). When the soul is reunited to such a part of its body as will allow us to call it the same body, we may well see an instantaneous recapitulation of the formative process.

(6) Perhaps in this hard matter of the bodily resurrection some hope of recalling men to unity may be found in the condition of the risen body. Theology lays it down that not the substance of the body but only its condition shall be changed. Body will not become spirit, but, while remaining body, it will become pliant and obedient to the spirit. Time and space will still remain. Some of the soul's supremacy over time and space will be given by the soul as a dowry to the body.

Here is a good (and very detailed) look at the usage of the words 'Nephesh' and 'Psuche' in the light of the Hebrew understanding.

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

 

[Vic C.]

Well, since I asked the original question... :-D

Coin, could you back up or explain what you posted using scripture? I'm not sure I even know what Summa Theologica is without looking it up.

(1) first is that the soul, as an intellectual and therefore simple substance, is naturally incorruptible and immortal (Summa Theologica 1:75:6).

Are we sure about this? How can you say the soul is incorruptible when it's the soul that is being saved? Immortal, ok, when did it achieve immortality? That should be easy to explain. 8-) My understanding of immortal is "existing forever". How can this be in light of Mat 10:28?

(2) second is that the soul is not man (ST 1:75: 4). Even in the common speech of the people, that quarry of sound thinking, man is not said to be a soul but to have a soul.

Oh you poor soul. You don't really believe that now, do you? Where I come from, it's very common to use "soul" when speaking about a person. :wink:

Hey, these are valid concerns of mine. I have always been concerned about the origins of various "soul doctrines" and beliefs. I'd like to see solid Biblical explanations, not summas or catechisms or any other denominational slants that may or may not have been influenced by Hellenistic or other philosophical beliefs. Lets put up a solid Biblical understanding from start to finish, that was the reason for this thread.

 

[one_lost_coin]

Well, since I asked the original question... :-D

Coin, could you back up or explain what you posted using scripture? I'm not sure I even know what Summa Theologica is without looking it up.

(1) first is that the soul, as an intellectual and therefore simple substance, is naturally incorruptible and immortal (Summa Theologica 1:75:6).

Are we sure about this? How can you say the soul is incorruptible when it's the soul that is being saved? Immortal, ok, when did it achieve immortality? That should be easy to explain. 8-) My understanding of immortal is "existing forever". How can this be in light of Mat 10:28?

[quote:2j08pbgc](2) second is that the soul is not man (ST 1:75: 4). Even in the common speech of the people, that quarry of sound thinking, man is not said to be a soul but to have a soul.

Oh you poor soul. You don't really believe that now, do you? Where I come from, it's very common to use "soul" when speaking about a person. :wink:

Hey, these are valid concerns of mine. I have always been concerned about the origins of various "soul doctrines" and beliefs. I'd like to see solid Biblical explanations, not summas or catechisms or any other denominational slants that may or may not have been influenced by Hellenistic or other philosophical beliefs. Lets put up a solid Biblical understanding from start to finish, that was the reason for this thread.[/quote:2j08pbgc]

Not incorruptable in that usage incorruptable in fancy theological usage meaning that it is not subject to decay like the body. Immortal.

The Summa Theologica was written by St. Thomas Aquinas and is a very good interpretation of the verses found in the bible. So good for that matter that he is a course of study in seminaries for most all of Christianity. CS Lewis liked him.

The scriptures have been put up already and accompanied by some very unusual interpretations. I thought maybe listening to one of the Church's very gifted orthodox (orthodox as in faithfull to true teaching) teachers may be of some use in properly putting the scriptures already posted into their proper light. It is possible to benefit from the teaching of others.

I can repost the verses over again but figured everone is capable of maintaining a train of thought.

I would agree with you statement on the soul you are preaching to the choir. Check out some of the past posts not everybody sees it your way as a matter of fact they disagree with you.

 

[duval]

Vic c: Have only read a small portion of this topic but what I've read I tend to agree with you. Duval

 

[Vic C.]

Coin, I will read more about St. Thomas Aquinas and his commentaries of this topic.. .. and Coin, I disagree with myself sometimes, concerning the matter of soul and spirit. : I'm not concerned over who agrees and disagrees with me on this because I'm not dogmatic about some of it one way or another. I have my beliefs but honestly, over the last few years here, I've seen valid arguments made right from the Bible from both sides of the debate. 8-)

 

[nadab]

Hello one_lost_coin,
The first part of Deuteronomy 24:7 reads literally: "that he-is-being-found man stealing soul (Hebrew nephesh) from brothers-of him from sons-of Israel".(online interlinear Scripture4all ) Deuteronomy 24:7a is thus rendered: "In case a man is found kidnapping a soul of his brothers".(New World Translation)

Psalms 105:18 reads literally: "they-humbled in the fetter feet-of him foot-of him iron she was inserted soul-of (nephesh) him".(online interlinear Scripture4all ) It is thus rendered: "With fetters they afflicted his feet, into irons his soul came".(New World Translation)

And of Numbers 6:6, it literally reads: "all-of days-of to-be-sequestered-of him to Yahweh on soul (nephesh) being dead not he-shall-come".(online interlinear Scripture4all ) It is rendered: "All the days of his (one who is a Nazirite) keeping separate to Jehovah he may not come toward any dead soul ( Hebrew nephesh meth)".(New World Translation) Hence, the soul can be kidnapped, put into irons, and be dead.

The illustration of Lazarus and the Rich Man is just that, an illustration concerning the religious leaders of Jesus day, for Luke 16:14 says that following Jesus having spoken of not being able to slave for "two masters", money and God, "now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him". Jesus then tells them: "You are those who declare themselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God's sight."(Luke 16:15)

The time had come for the tables to be turned on people who are rich in worldly goods, political power, and religious control and influence. They are to be put down. Jesus relates an illustration that features two men whose status, or situation, is eventually changed dramatically. In order to show that God's favor was not with these Jewish religious leaders (the Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees and chief priests, as pictured by the rich man) but was now with the common people or Lazarus class, Jesus gave the parable or illustration.

The proud rich-man class viewed the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them ‛am ha·’a´rets, (Hebrew) meaning "people of the land". The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders denied proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. The Lazarus class or common people, were "desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man", but only spiritual crumbs came from the Jewish religious leaders.(Luke 16:21) Hence, these received no spiritual substance at all, until the coming of the Christ.(Luke 16:16) Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people were looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs.

The death of both the rich man and Lazarus does not teach that the dead are "alive", for these were not literal persons, with their deaths also being symbolic. What then, did their deaths picture ? Jesus was saying that there was a change in divine favor. With the preaching of both John and Jesus, and especially of Jesus concerning the kingdom of God, both the rich man and Lazarus died to their former circumstances, or condition.

The religious leaders "died" to any seeming position of divine favor and lost any spiritual privileges these might have had. In fact, they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Now the common people were gaining God's favor and were at the same time assisting Jesus in proclaiming God's fiery judgments that tormented them. The religious leaders requested that "Lazarus" dip "the tip of his finger in water and cool (his) tongue", wanting some relief from the strong denunciations against them by having the Lazarus class let up in this fiery judgment messages that Jesus himself proclaimed against them.(Matt 23)

To show that such favor has been removed from the religious leaders and given to the common people, Jesus said to these religious leaders: "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of you into the kingdom of God. For John (the Baptist) came to you in a way of righteousness, but you did not believe him. However, the tax collectors and the harlots believed him, and you, although you saw this, did not feel regrets afterwards so as to believe him."(Matt 21:31,32) He later said that "the kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits".(Matt 21:43)

As a result, these never examined the scriptures closely, but rather continued to mix Greek philosophy in with watered down Judaism, and in turn taught the immortality of the soul. Ecclesiastes 9:5 is very clear concerning the condition of the dead, as being "conscious of nothing at all". If the dead were not dead, then, in reality there is no death. If that is the case, then for what reason did Jesus provide a ransom ? If the dead are not really dead, then why is there spoken of a "resurrection of the dead" ?(Acts 17:32; 23:6; 24:21)

If "the dead are conscious", then where was Jesus for parts of three days after his "death" on the torture stake ?(Matt 12:40) Does not Isaiah 53:12 say that Jesus "poured out his soul to the very death" ? Or where was Jesus close friend, Lazarus, for the four days that Jesus said that he was dead, for Jesus told his apostles that "Lazarus has died" ?(John 11:14) If "the dead are conscious", then why did Jesus liken death to sleep ?(John 11:11) If "the dead are conscious", then why does Psalms 115:16 say that the "dead themselves do not praise Jah, nor do any going down into silence" ? Or that one's "thoughts have perished" ?(Ps 146:4)

The word resurrection comes from the Greek word anastasis and literally means "raising up, standing up". Those that have died, a "deceased soul", and in God's memory, will be ' raised up, stand up ' again as a living soul.(John 5:28) Following Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden, God told Adam: "For dust you are and to dust you will return".(Gen 3:19) Adam, as a "living soul", returned to the "dust" from which he was made, becoming non-existent as he was before he was formed.(Gen 2:7)

The soul is thus not immortal, but can be "destroyed",(Matt 10:28) eats,(Lev 7:18,20) sins (Lev 6:2; Eze 18:4,20) can touch "unclean" things,(Lev 7:21) condemned for eating blood,(Lev 7:27; 17:10,12), and even the blood is called the "soul (or life) of the flesh",(Lev 17:11) for a literal rendition is: "that soul-of the flesh in the blood."(online interlinear Scripture4all, see also Lev 17:14) Our soul is us as a person with life, with all our desires.

And as for Jesus being God, Jesus himself said that he was God's "only-begotten Son".(John 3:16) And that upon his "resurrection from the dead", he told Mary that he was "ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God".(John 20:17)

The book of Revelation was written in "signs" or symbolisms. (Rev 1:1) At Revelation 6:9-11, those "souls" that were slaughtered, are seen as requesting vengeance for their blood, with these being told to "rest a little while longer". These, therefore, were still ' resting ' in the grave, awaiting a resurrection from the dead. Throughout the Bible, non-living things are seen as speaking, such as at Genesis 4:10, in which God says that Abel's "blood is crying out to me from the ground". Or of wisdom as "crying aloud in the very street. In the public squares it keeps giving forth its voice."(Prov 1:20) Yet, these are not alive, but have been personified.

Moses, just before his death, said that God "will avenge the blood of his servants".(Deut 32:43) And of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, the angel said to "Be glad over her, O heaven, also you holy ones and you apostles and you prophets, because God has judicially exacted punishment for you from her."(Rev 18:20) Many of these holy ones and prophets have long been dead, but the angel spoke as if these were alive, providing a stirring proclamation that God has purposed to "avenge the blood of his servants" at Babylon the Great's hands, by destroying this world wide empire and resurrecting these "servants" from the dead.(Rev 18:8)