What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[Runmyramble]

Hi everyone...and to all my fellow Christian's in Christ...
I love the passage in 1 peter 3
And I have an Ideal of what I believe..
But I want to know first your thoughts...

 

[Hopeful]

Hi everyone...and to all my fellow Christian's in Christ...
I love the passage in 1 peter 3
And I have an Ideal of what I believe..
But I want to know first your thoughts...

1 Peter 3:21 is the scripture that convinced me, an ex-catholic, to get water baptized...so I could have a clear conscience by the resurrection of Christ.

 

[tdidymas]

Hi everyone...and to all my fellow Christian's in Christ...
I love the passage in 1 peter 3
And I have an Ideal of what I believe..
But I want to know first your thoughts...

He clearly states "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" (v. 21), "but the appeal to God for a good conscience". Therefore, he is using the rite of baptism as a symbol to represent what the person baptized wants God to do for them, which is cleanse their conscience from guilt, shame, and doubt. But also important is the faith that God will cleanse the person baptized from sinful behavior, since he previously wrote in 2:24 "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." This depicts spiritual healing from a sinful condition to a godly condition. So the baptism that saves is not the physical baptism, but the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer. I get the idea that both types were assumed to happen simultaneously in this context, although the knowledge of having been baptized in the Spirit could come after the physical baptism (Rom. 6:3-4).

 

[Mungo]

The baptism that saves us is clearly stated by Jesus himself in Mt 16:16
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
The only baptism that anyone had experienced at this point was baptism with water.

Pater, after referring to 8 people being saved through water says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"; a clear reference to baptism with water saving us.

 

[Mungo]

But also important is the faith that God will cleanse the person baptized from sinful behavior, since he previously wrote in 2:24 "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." This depicts spiritual healing from a sinful condition to a godly condition.

I agree with that.
But then you say:

So the baptism that saves is not the physical baptism, but the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer.

I don't see that follows from the previous statement.
The so called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" is something very different

 

[for_his_glory]

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching what God gave Him to speak and do. It was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3, but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

 

[Mungo]

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching what God gave Him to speak and do. It was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3, but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Faith is necessary for salvation but not faith alone.
Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"

All this "scripture would have said" is speculation.

Baptism in water is not a work. It is an act of obedience and submission.
When Paul refers to works he means "works of the law", for example Rom 3:20,28 & Gal 2:16.

After speaking with Nicodemus about being born again with water Jesus goes and himself baptises people.
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. (Jn 3:22)

Now a discussion arose between John’s disciples and a Jew over purifying. And they came to John, and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to him.” (Jn 3:25-26)
It couldn't be much clearer that Jesus baptised.

 

[for_his_glory]

Faith is necessary for salvation but not faith alone.
Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"

All this "scripture would have said" is speculation.

Baptism in water is not a work. It is an act of obedience and submission.
When Paul refers to works he means "works of the law", for example Rom 3:20,28 & Gal 2:16.

After speaking with Nicodemus about being born again with water Jesus goes and himself baptises people.
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. (Jn 3:22)

Now a discussion arose between John’s disciples and a Jew over purifying. And they came to John, and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to him.” (Jn 3:25-26)
It couldn't be much clearer that Jesus baptised.

We are saved by God's grace, even though we do not deserve it. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, Hebrews 11:1, as none of us has ever seen Christ Jesus, but by faith we repent and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior as we are baptized into Christ for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Spiritual rebirth means we have died to self and now are risen with Christ as we seek those things from above where Christ sits on the right hand of God, Colossians 3:1-4. It's by being Spiritually born again that we can see the kingdom of God as we are born of water (hearing the word of God) and of the Holy Spirit, not by being immersed in water as that is only an outward appearance to man. John 3:3-7.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Holy Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first. After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.

 

[Mungo]

We are saved by God's grace, even though we do not deserve it. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, Hebrews 11:1, as none of us has ever seen Christ Jesus, but by faith we repent and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior as we are baptized into Christ for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed

Spiritual rebirth means we have died to self and now are risen with Christ as we seek those things from above where Christ sits on the right hand of God, Colossians 3:1-4. It's by being Spiritually born again that we can see the kingdom of God as we are born of water (hearing the word of God) and of the Holy Spirit, not by being immersed in water as that is only an outward appearance to man. John 3:3-7.

It is when we are baptised with water that our spiritual rebirth happens. Born again of water and the Spirit.
Water is not hearing the word of God. It means H2O.

Jesus baptised with water.
Peter baptised with water.
Philip baptised with water.
Paul was baptised with water and ordered others to be baptised with water.
Baptism with watr is the dfault. Anything else is a metaphor.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Holy Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

In Acts 2:38 Peter means baptism with water. It's what the crown would have understood.
When he went to preach the gospel to Cornelius he said
“Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48)

It is quite clear that here Peter is baptising with water in the name of Jesus Christ
"in the name of Jesus Christ" is the same phrase Peter uses in Acts 2:38

In Acts 8 Philip baptises "in the name of the Lord Jesus"
Later in vs 36-38 we find that Philip baptises in water.

As I showed earlier scripture says Jesus baptised with water.

Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first. After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.

Yes, we faith
Yes, we need repentance.
Then comes baptism with water and we receive the Holy Spirit.

Confusion arises because there are two ways we receive the Holy Spirit.
The first way is the interior indwelling, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit who renews us (Ti 3:5, Rom 6:3-4)
The second way is whe the Holy Spirit "falls" on us -the so-called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:15-16;19:6) Acts 12

 

[tdidymas]

I agree with that.
But then you say:

I don't see that follows from the previous statement.
The so called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" is something very different

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the same thing as baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. Those phrases might depict different pictures, but they are the same event. It is a spiritual baptism (immersion) into the Spirit of Christ, which happens in the spiritual realm - Eph. 2:5

Water baptism is something a person DOES, and is symbolic of the spiritual baptism that GOD DOES, according to Rom. 6. They are very connected, since no one can be in the body of Christ unless they have this spiritual baptism (Rom. 8:9).

 

[Mungo]

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same thing as the baptism of the (oHoly Spirit, which is the same thing as baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. Those phrases might depict different pictures, but they are the same event. It is a spiritual baptism (immersion) into the Spirit of Christ, which happens in the spiritual realm - Eph. 2:5

Water baptism is something a person DOES, and is symbolic of the spiritual baptism that GOD DOES, according to Rom. 6. They are very connected, since no one can be in the body of Christ unless they have this spiritual baptism (Rom. 8:9).

It is baptism with water that makes us born again, when the Holy Spirit renews us, when we become part of the body of Christ, when we enter the New Covenant and become children of God.


Baptism with/by/of the Holy Spirit is not actually a biblical term.
Being baptised with the Holy Spirit is a metaphor. The noun phrase Baptism with (of/by) t he Holy Spirit was a 19th century invention of the Pentecostal movement.

As I said in my previous post:

Confusion arises because there are two ways we receive the Holy Spirit.
The first way is the interior indwelling, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit who renews us (Ti 3:5, Rom 6:3-4)
The second way is whe the Holy Spirit "falls" on us -the so-called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:15-16;19:6) Acts 12

 

[Consecrated Life]

Agreed


It is when we are baptised with water that our spiritual rebirth happens. Born again of water and the Spirit.
Water is not hearing the word of God. It means H2O.

Jesus baptised with water.
Peter baptised with water.
Philip baptised with water.
Paul was baptised with water and ordered others to be baptised with water.
Baptism with watr is the dfault. Anything else is a metaphor.

Your laundry list of Baptizers omits the man that Jesus called the greatest Baptizer of all. John the Baptist :

Mat 11:11

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist"

Your trepidation at including the one Jesus singled out as being greater than all most likely due to Jesus's emphasizing John's prophesized Baptism by " fire and the Holy Ghost " as being superior to the physical and observable, & directly from God Above :

Mat 3:11
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but ...... he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

The natural and stubborn human tendency to place the emphasis on things below, and for the wrong reasons.
The physical and observable below being held in much greater esteem and more marvelous than the unobservable instant promise of God fulfilled from above.
Most often by individuals who delight in being considered much more observably marvelous themselves than the great unwashed they wash.

Nothing wrong with water baptism done unconfused .

But It is this human carnal emphasis on the required physical and the observable things below, to make the Grace of God stick that has made it possible for millions of people forced to become Muslims at gunpoint.

 

[Mungo]

Your laundry list of Baptizers omits the man that Jesus called the greatest Baptizer of all. John the Baptist :

Mat 11:11

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist"

You missed out the second part of what Jesus said:
Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Therefore all Chistians are greater than John the Baptist.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You missed out the second part of what Jesus said:
Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Therefore all Chistians are greater than John the Baptist.

You are quite consistent in your misunderstanding of Christ's meaning.
Stating yourself to be of great status compared to John you have instantly eliminated yourself from being considered" least " in the kingdom.
However, you are by no means the lone ranger where this profound lack of meekness is concerned.

 

[Mungo]

You are quite consistent in your misunderstanding of Christ's meaning.
Stating yourself to be of great status compared to John you have instantly eliminated yourself from being considered" least " in the kingdom.
However, you are by no means the lone ranger where this profound lack of meekness is concerned.

1. Where is the misunderstanding? Jesus words are very clear.

2. I didn't say anything about me personally. I didn't say I was a great status compared to John.

3. Do you think Christians are not in the kingdom?

 

[Consecrated Life]

1. Where is the misunderstanding? Jesus words are very clear.

2. I didn't say anything about me personally. I didn't say I was a great status compared to John.


Therefore all Chistians are greater than John the Baptist.

By your own self description as a Christian :

[B]Mungo[/B]​

FromEnglandGenderMale
ChristianYes
Messages1,000JoinedOct 21, 2019

You infer yourself as being among those you claim being " Greater than John the Baptist " .
Something no other Christian that Jesus spoke of has ever even thought of daring to do .
Your problem " personally " speaking in comparison to those Christians Jesus spoke too, is that not a one of them ever made that puffed up claim for themselves.
As you have done.
In fact according to Jesus it is their refusal to ever lay claim to such status, as you have included yourself in, that has made them, " least " & thereby greater in the Kingdom than John and you.
Yourself no longer being one of "the least" but one of the "greater" by virtue of your own inferred self-promotion

While all this is off topic quite a bit this lack of discernment you have shown in what level of self-promotion Jesus implies would negate a person in being included among the " least " this has been instructive in explaining how you have veered so deep into the ditch where Water Baptism is concerned.

 

[Mungo]

By your own self description as a Christian :

[B]Mungo[/B]​

FromEnglandGenderMale
ChristianYes
Messages1,000JoinedOct 21, 2019

You infer yourself as being among those you claim being " Greater than John the Baptist " .
Something no other Christian that Jesus spoke of has ever even thought of daring to do .
Your problem " personally " speaking in comparison to those Christians Jesus spoke too, is that not a one of them ever made that puffed up claim for themselves.
As you have done.
In fact according to Jesus it is their refusal to ever lay claim to such status, as you have included yourself in, that has made them, " least " & thereby greater in the Kingdom than John and you.
Yourself no longer being one of "the least" but one of the "greater" by your own self-promotion

While all this is off topic quite a bit this lack of discernment you have shown in what level of self-promotion Jesus implies would negate a person in being included among the " least " this has been instructive in explaining how you have veered so deep into the ditch where Water Baptism is concerned.

What a load of waffle to obscure your error.

You failed to answer my questions -dodging them instead.
I purposely numbered then so that you could clearly answer each one but you made no attempt.

I have made no self promotion or puffed up claim about myself.
According to Jesus I could be the least of all Christians but still be greater than JtB.
I believe Jesus but apparently you do not.

 

[Consecrated Life]

What a load of waffle to obscure your error.

We'll agree to disagree then.
Why don't you get back on track with your chosen thread topic ?


Mat 3:11
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but ...... he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

The natural and stubborn human tendency is to place the emphasis on physical observable things below, and for the wrong reasons.
Like who is all wet , and who got all wet first, whose wetter was better, etc.etc,etc, & etc.
The physical and observable things below being held in much greater esteem and more marvelous than the unobservable instant promise of God fulfilled from above.
Most often by individuals who delight in being considered much more observably marvelous themselves than the great unwashed they wash.

Nothing wrong with water baptism done unconfused .

But It is this human carnal emphasis on the required physical and the observable things below, to make the Grace of God stick that has made it possible for millions of people forced to become Muslims at gunpoint.

 

[tdidymas]

It is baptism with water that makes us born again, when the Holy Spirit renews us, when we become part of the body of Christ, when we enter the New Covenant and become children of God.

Are you trying to say I'm wrong about what I said, or are you just trying to clarify something? I said that in the context of 1 Pet. 3:21, it is assumed that water baptism and Spirit baptism are happening at the same time. Do you agree or disagree with that?

Further, I understand you cling to the dogma that water baptism saves. I disagree with that dogma, and I do not believe the scripture supports that idea. Eph. 2:5 clearly states "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." It does not say exactly when this event happened. It might be assumed to happen during water baptism, or it might be assumed to happen while the gospel is being preached.

But to be sure, scripture supports the process that water baptism happens chronologically later than belief in the gospel:
Acts 8:35-38 "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him."
It is obvious that Philip's concern was that the Eunuch believed the gospel he preached to him before baptizing him. Believing the gospel is the faith that justifies, and therefore the Eunuch believed and was saved prior to his baptism.

Both Peter and Paul also support the idea that being born again results from hearing the gospel preached (not from water baptism):
1 Pet. 1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."
Rom. 10:9-11 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
It is obvious they are talking about faith in the gospel, not water baptism. Therefore water baptism comes after belief in the truth about Christ, and the only reasonable conclusion we can make of this is that a person is saved by Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Baptism with/by/of the Holy Spirit is not actually a biblical term.

BY: 1 Cor. 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." - baptism BY the Holy Spirit.
WITH: Mk. 1:8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." - baptism WITH the Spirit.
IN: John 1:33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit." - baptism IN the Holy Spirit.
Ok, so my gaffe was using the term "of" instead of "in." It still means the same thing. Therefore, those phrases are indeed Biblical.

Being baptised with the Holy Spirit is a metaphor. The noun phrase Baptism with (of/by) t he Holy Spirit was a 19th century invention of the Pentecostal movement.

As I said in my previous post:

It appears to me that what you say about 2 ways we receive the Holy Spirit supports the modern Pentecostal idea that the H.S. falling on us is a 2nd blessing. Do you agree with that?

The scripture does appear to support the idea of additional Holy Spirit fillings or baptisms, the way I read it. However, I disagree with the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic idea that when the Holy Spirit falls on a person that they will speak in tongues. Although it says in Acts "they spoke with tongues and prophesied," it is speculation to claim that all of them did so. It is more reasonable IMO to say that some spoke tongues and some prophesied. It simply doesn't say, so anything beyond what the text actually states is conjecture.

"Be filled with the Spirit" is an exhortation to receive more of the Spirit that what one currently has, IMO. However, what that looks like and how it is played out is likely based on bias and agenda. Scripturally, the end result of this should be the fruit of the Spirit, which is displayed in attitudes and behavior.

 

[Mungo]

We'll agree to disagree then.
Why don't you get back on track with your chosen thread topic ?


Mat 3:11
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but ...... he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

The natural and stubborn human tendency is to place the emphasis on physical observable things below, and for the wrong reasons.
Like who is all wet , and who got all wet first, whose wetter was better, etc.etc,etc, & etc.
The physical and observable things below being held in much greater esteem and more marvelous than the unobservable instant promise of God fulfilled from above.
Most often by individuals who delight in being considered much more observably marvelous themselves than the great unwashed they wash.

Nothing wrong with water baptism done unconfused .

But It is this human carnal emphasis on the required physical and the observable things below, to make the Grace of God stick that has made it possible for millions of people forced to become Muslims at gunpoint.

Please answer my questions instead of all this waffle.