What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[jaybo]

The baptism that saves us is clearly stated by Jesus himself in Mt 16:16
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
The only baptism that anyone had experienced at this point was baptism with water.

Pater, after referring to 8 people being saved through water says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"; a clear reference to baptism with water saving us.

Baptism doesn't save anyone; salvation is always a gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

In this case, the ritual of baptism is a work; it doesn't save anyone.

Baptism is a statement that the sinful person has been symbolically buried, then "resurrected" to a new life in Christ. Romans 6:4, "Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life."

 

[Mungo]

Are you trying to say I'm wrong about what I said, or are you just trying to clarify something? I said that in the context of 1 Pet. 3:21, it is assumed that water baptism and Spirit baptism are happening at the same time. Do you agree or disagree with that?

If by "Spirit baptism" you mean the so-called Batism with/of/by (whatever) the Holy Spirit as per Acts 1: then no, baptism with water is not the same as "Spirit baptism"

Further, I understand you cling to the dogma that water baptism saves. I disagree with that dogma, and I do not believe the scripture supports that idea. Eph. 2:5 clearly states "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." It does not say exactly when this event happened. It might be assumed to happen during water baptism, or it might be assumed to happen while the gospel is being preached.

That baptism with water saves is fully scriptural (Mk 16;16 & 1Pet 3:21 for a start)

But to be sure, scripture supports the process that water baptism happens chronologically later than belief in the gospel:
Acts 8:35-38 "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him."
It is obvious that Philip's concern was that the Eunuch believed the gospel he preached to him before baptizing him. Believing the gospel is the faith that justifies, and therefore the Eunuch believed and was saved prior to his baptism.

Yes believe is a part of being saved. But as Lesus told us:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" Both are the normal way that Jesus gave us.

Both Peter and Paul also support the idea that being born again results from hearing the gospel preached (not from water baptism):
1 Pet. 1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."
Rom. 10:9-11 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
It is obvious they are talking about faith in the gospel, not water baptism. Therefore water baptism comes after belief in the truth about Christ, and the only reasonable conclusion we can make of this is that a person is saved by Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

You need to take ALL scripture into av-ccount. Mk 16:16 & 1Pet3:21 clealry state that baptism saves us.

BY: 1 Cor. 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." - baptism BY the Holy Spirit.
WITH: Mk. 1:8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." - baptism WITH the Spirit.
IN: John 1:33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit." - baptism IN the Holy Spirit.
Ok, so my gaffe was using the term "of" instead of "in." It still means the same thing. Therefore, those phrases are indeed Biblical.

I didn't say anything about a gaffe. Where did you get that from?

It appears to me that what you say about 2 ways we receive the Holy Spirit supports the modern Pentecostal idea that the H.S. falling on us is a 2nd blessing. Do you agree with that?

The scripture does appear to support the idea of additional Holy Spirit fillings or baptisms, the way I read it. However, I disagree with the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic idea that when the Holy Spirit falls on a person that they will speak in tongues. Although it says in Acts "they spoke with tongues and prophesied," it is speculation to claim that all of them did so. It is more reasonable IMO to say that some spoke tongues and some prophesied. It simply doesn't say, so anything beyond what the text actually states is conjecture.

"Be filled with the Spirit" is an exhortation to receive more of the Spirit that what one currently has, IMO. However, what that looks like and how it is played out is likely based on bias and agenda. Scripturally, the end result of this should be the fruit of the Spirit, which is displayed in attitudes and behavior.

I do believe there are two ways to receive the Holy Spirit and correspondingly for two different purposes, as I thought I said in my previous post.
I never mentioned speaking in tongues.

 

[Mungo]

Baptism doesn't save anyone; salvation is always a gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

In this case, the ritual of baptism is a work; it doesn't save anyone.

As I pointed out before

Baptism in water is not a work. It is an act of obedience and submission.
When Paul refers to works he means "works of the law", for example Rom 3:20,28 & Gal 2:16.

Baptism is a statement that the sinful person has been symbolically buried, then "resurrected" to a new life in Christ. Romans 6:4, "Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life."

Baptism symbolises our death and resurrection because in it we die to sin (1Pet 2:24) and are raised the newness of life
"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit," (Ti 3:5)

As I said before:

The baptism that saves us is clearly stated by Jesus himself in Mt 16:16
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
The only baptism that anyone had experienced at this point was baptism with water.

Peter, after referring to 8 people being saved through water says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"; a clear reference to baptism with water saving us.

 

[Walpole]

In Christianity, matter...matters. Question for the anti-sacramentalists....

At the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, our Blessed Lord instructs His Apostles to teach and baptize all nations. He gives the Apostles the the proper form for administering the sacrament, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt 28:19)

---> Do you know of anyone using this form for a baptism sans water?

 

[for_his_glory]

By your own self description as a Christian :

[B]Mungo[/B]​

FromEnglandGenderMale
ChristianYes
Messages1,000JoinedOct 21, 2019

You infer yourself as being among those you claim being " Greater than John the Baptist " .
Something no other Christian that Jesus spoke of has ever even thought of daring to do .
Your problem " personally " speaking in comparison to those Christians Jesus spoke too, is that not a one of them ever made that puffed up claim for themselves.
As you have done.
In fact according to Jesus it is their refusal to ever lay claim to such status, as you have included yourself in, that has made them, " least " & thereby greater in the Kingdom than John and you.
Yourself no longer being one of "the least" but one of the "greater" by virtue of your own inferred self-promotion

While all this is off topic quite a bit this lack of discernment you have shown in what level of self-promotion Jesus implies would negate a person in being included among the " least " this has been instructive in explaining how you have veered so deep into the ditch where Water Baptism is concerned.

You can not use a members profile to claim they think they are greater than John the Baptist, just because they say they are a Christian. You are misunderstanding Mungo as he never said he was greater as being more superior than JTB and stated so. Read his post #17.

No one is greater than their Master (Christ Jesus) as even John the Baptist said that he needs to decrease so that Jesus can increase, John 3:30-31. John never saw himself greater than any other man, but knowing what God called him to do as a faithful servant, Matthew 10:24.

This topic is not about who is greater in the kingdom of God so please direct your replies to the OP or they will be deleted. Respect the views of others and try to understand what they are saying instead of misunderstanding what they have said. Just let this be a warning.

 

[jaybo]

As I pointed out before





Baptism symbolises our death and resurrection because in it we die to sin (1Pet 2:24) and are raised the newness of life
"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit," (Ti 3:5)

As I said before:

You think 1 Peter 2:24 has anything to do with baptism? "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we may cease from sinning and live for righteousness. By his wounds you were healed." NET (they use bold font to indicates OT quotes)

One of the problems with chapters and verses is that they divide up the Bible text in a manner that permits out-of-context distortions. Here is Titus 3:4-7 in context, " But “when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done [including baptism] but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth [not water baptism] and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. And so, since we have been justified by his grace [my emphasis], we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”

Baptism is a ritual that symbolizes our death and resurrection, nothing more. It cannot save anyone. Salvation is a gift of God; it is a gross error to malign God, the creator of life.

Anyone can misread Scripture in order to justify a predetermine doctrine. It happens all the time, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[for_his_glory]

It is when we are baptised with water that our spiritual rebirth happens. Born again of water and the Spirit.
Water is not hearing the word of God. It means H2O.

How could Spiritual rebirth happen before Jesus death and resurrection, then sending down the Holy Spirit which is the Baptism of Christ John spoke of as Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit and fire. John's baptism was for repentance as preparing the way unto Christ.

John’s baptism was for the showing of one who repented of their sins first and then symbolized of actual water that they were made clean again. It was not for the receiving Jesus or the Holy Spirit as Jesus ministry hadn’t started yet and the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost in the upper room. When Jesus was baptized of John it was to fulfill Gods righteousness in Him to receive Gods power and authority to start His ministry here on earth as He had to relate to the humanity of man. Water baptism is an outward appearance to others that you have been made righteous through Christ and have receive the Holy Spirit as we are given Gods power and authority through His grace to be His servants and witness here on Earth as Christ was.​

Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

There is no saving provisions found in actual water, but only done as an outward appearance to others that symbolizes that of John's baptism of the washing away of sin. Water does not forgive us and it certainly does not bring us to repentance or has anything to do with being Spiritually born again from above within the Spiritual realm of God.

I've been baptized in full water immersion because others told me I had to in order to be saved, but that only made me wet. It had nothing to do with my salvation from God or receiving the Holy Spirit as I had received that before I was dunked in water.

 

[Mungo]

You think 1 Peter 2:24 has anything to do with baptism? "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we may cease from sinning and live for righteousness. By his wounds you were healed." NET (they use bold font to indicates OT quotes)

No because I gave the wrong reference.
I should have given 1Pet 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,

 

[Mungo]

How could Spiritual rebirth happen before Jesus death and resurrection

I didn't claim it did. Jesus gave the instructions for baptism (with water) after his death and resurrection.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19)

 

[Mungo]

John’s baptism was for the showing of one who repented of their sins first and then symbolized of actual water that they were made clean again.​

I made no claims about John's baptism so why bring it up?
It's just a straw man argument.

 

[Mungo]

There is no saving provisions found in actual water, but only done as an outward appearance to others that symbolizes that of John's baptism of the washing away of sin. Water does not forgive us and it certainly does not bring us to repentance or has anything to do with being Spiritually born again from above within the Spiritual realm of God.

I never claimed that there saving provision in actual water.
I never claimed that water forgave.

You are just inventing straw men arguments.

 

[for_his_glory]

The baptism that saves us is clearly stated by Jesus himself in Mt 16:16
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
The only baptism that anyone had experienced at this point was baptism with water.

Pater, after referring to 8 people being saved through water says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"; a clear reference to baptism with water saving us.

Hi Mungo

I was just going back through the replies and Matthew 16:16 has nothing to do with water baptism as it's only Peter confessing to Jesus that He is the Christ.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Where does it say in scripture that Peter, after referring to 8 people being saved through water says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"?

 

[for_his_glory]

I made no claims about John's baptism so why bring it up?
It's just a straw man argument.

I was replying to your post #9 where you said:
It is when we are baptised with water that our spiritual rebirth happens. Born again of water and the Spirit.
Water is not hearing the word of God. It means H2O.

I'm confused as throughout this whole thread you and I have been discussing John's water baptism as I believe, if I am not wrong, you said that water baptism is when we become Spiritually born again and I disagreed with that. Am I missing something?

 

[Mungo]

Hi Mungo

I was just going back through the replies and Matthew 16:16 has nothing to do with water baptism as it's only Peter confessing to Jesus that He is the Christ.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Where does it say in scripture that Peter, after referring to 8 people being saved through water says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"?

I'm not doing very well with references at the moment.
I'm not at home and working with a laptop on my knees.
So my apologies for the errors.

The two references I meant were Mk 16:16 and I'll quote so I can be sure I got it right:
He who believes and is baptized will be saved
and
1Pet 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you....

 

[jaybo]

I'm not doing very well with references at the moment.
I'm not at home and working with a laptop on my knees.
So my apologies for the errors.

The two references I meant were Mk 16:16 and I'll quote so I can be sure I got it right:
He who believes and is baptized will be saved
and
1Pet 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you....

The "long ending" of Mark's gospel is not part of the original text; it was added at a later date. It is not a reliable guide to God's truth. If you think it is valid, I suggest that you not play with dangerous snakes or drink deadly poison.

1 Peter 3:21 says "And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you—not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him." It says that it is the resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves you -- Scriptural truth! -- not the ritual of baptism, which is a pledge of a good conscience.

Water baptism is better understood through Romans 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Also, baptism in water is clearly explained in Matthew 3:5-6, "People went out to him [John] from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River." If water baptism saves you then none of the people whom John baptized had any need for Jesus Christ!

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Water baptism is a "work"; if it saves you than God's gift is meaningless.

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed


It is when we are baptised with water that our spiritual rebirth happens. Born again of water and the Spirit.
Water is not hearing the word of God. It means H2O.

Jesus baptised with water.
Peter baptised with water.
Philip baptised with water.
Paul was baptised with water and ordered others to be baptised with water.
Baptism with watr is the dfault. Anything else is a metaphor.



In Acts 2:38 Peter means baptism with water. It's what the crown would have understood.
When he went to preach the gospel to Cornelius he said
“Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48)

It is quite clear that here Peter is baptising with water in the name of Jesus Christ
"in the name of Jesus Christ" is the same phrase Peter uses in Acts 2:38

In Acts 8 Philip baptises "in the name of the Lord Jesus"
Later in vs 36-38 we find that Philip baptises in water.

As I showed earlier scripture says Jesus baptised with water.



Yes, we faith
Yes, we need repentance.
Then comes baptism with water and we receive the Holy Spirit.

Confusion arises because there are two ways we receive the Holy Spirit.
The first way is the interior indwelling, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit who renews us (Ti 3:5, Rom 6:3-4)
The second way is whe the Holy Spirit "falls" on us -the so-called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:15-16;19:6) Acts 12

You and I see those scriptures differently within our understanding as I believe falling on being temporary like that of the OT and then after Jesus resurrection we are baptized into the Baptism of Christ for receiving the Holy Spirit and fire (fire means power from God) Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16; Acts 1:5; 2:38, that has nothing to do with literal water. It's like the 120 in the upper room that day that were filled with the Holy Spirit, the 3000 that repented and were baptized in the Holy Spirit, the Eunuch and many others that were Spiritually born again and filled with the Holy Spirit without ever being dunked in water, but yet they were not forbidden to be immersed in water.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not doing very well with references at the moment.
I'm not at home and working with a laptop on my knees.
So my apologies for the errors.

The two references I meant were Mk 16:16 and I'll quote so I can be sure I got it right:
He who believes and is baptized will be saved
and
1Pet 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you....

Sometimes that can be a problem so don't worry about the errors.

Mark 16:16 it never mentions water so I have to believe it's speaking about the Baptism of Christ for the receiving of the Holy Spirit when we are Spiritual born again from above like what it says in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10. Water can not save us as no one was yet saved during John's baptism as his was only for repentance as Jesus nor the Holy Spirit had come yet. It's like in the OT, they were saved by faith as they walked in obedience to God's commands as I'm not sure anyone other than John baptized with water.

1Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The eight souls that were saved by water means they of Noah's house were saved from the flood God sent upon the earth.

IMO, the like figure of water in vs. 20, not by the flesh being made clean by water, but a good conscience of knowing one needs God through His gift of grace through Christ Jesus who sacrificed his own life being made the final blood sacrifice for sin as God raised Him up on the third day.

 

[tdidymas]

If by "Spirit baptism" you mean the so-called Batism with/of/by (whatever) the Holy Spirit as per Acts 1: then no, baptism with water is not the same as "Spirit baptism"



That baptism with water saves is fully scriptural (Mk 16;16 & 1Pet 3:21 for a start)



Yes believe is a part of being saved. But as Lesus told us:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" Both are the normal way that Jesus gave us.



You need to take ALL scripture into av-ccount. Mk 16:16 & 1Pet3:21 clealry state that baptism saves us.

I didn't say anything about a gaffe. Where did you get that from?




I do believe there are two ways to receive the Holy Spirit and correspondingly for two different purposes, as I thought I said in my previous post.
I never mentioned speaking in tongues.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Mungo]

The "long ending" of Mark's gospel is not part of the original text; it was added at a later date. It is not a reliable guide to God's truth.

It seems that despites your claim of Sola Scriptura, when a scripture refutes you then you either ignore it or claim it's not really scripture.

If you think it is valid, I suggest that you not play with dangerous snakes or drink deadly poison.

I think mocking Jesus' words is not a good idea.

1 Peter 3:21 says "And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you—not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him." It says that it is the resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves you -- Scriptural truth! -- not the ritual of baptism, which is a pledge of a good conscience.

Of course God's forgiveness of sins is because of Jesus' death and resurrection. But that forgiveness happens in baptism.
As Ananias said to Paul "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

Water baptism is better understood through Romans 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Also, baptism in water is clearly explained in Matthew 3:5-6, "People went out to him [John] from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River." If water baptism saves you then none of the people whom John baptized had any need for Jesus Christ

John's baptism was not the same os baptism in Jesus name. John's baptism was not for dsalvation.
That is why Paul said to the 21 men at Ephesus:
“John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19-4-5)

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Water baptism is a "work"; if it saves you than God's gift is meaningless.

No, baptism is not a work.

As I have pointed out to you before

Baptism in water is not a work. It is an act of obedience and submission.
When Paul refers to works he means "works of the law", for example Rom 3:20,28 & Gal 2:16.

 

[jaybo]

It seems that despites your claim of Sola Scriptura, when a scripture refutes you then you either ignore it or claim it's not really scripture.


I think mocking Jesus' words is not a good idea.


Of course God's forgiveness of sins is because of Jesus' death and resurrection. But that forgiveness happens in baptism.
As Ananias said to Paul "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."




John's baptism was not the same os baptism in Jesus name. John's baptism was not for dsalvation.
That is why Paul said to the 21 men at Ephesus:
“John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19-4-5)



No, baptism is not a work.

As I have pointed out to you before

Those are just your opinions, and I disagree with them. I am not "mocking Jesus' words" by stating that the evidence for the "long ending" of Mark shows that it is not part of Scripture. Why are you twisting that to say I'm mocking Jesus? -> He never said anything about snakes or drinking poison <-