Mungo
Member
There is no need to be so aggressive.
Please refer to the catholic Church by it's proper name - not RCC or Roman Catholic Church. If you don't understand the difference see - Catholic Church (CC) vs Roman Catholic Church (RCC)
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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What is The Baptism that saves us now?
- Thread starter Runmyramble
- Start date
Please refer to the catholic Church by it's proper name - not RCC or Roman Catholic Church. If you don't understand the difference see - Catholic Church (CC) vs Roman Catholic Church (RCC)
Johann!@#
Member
Mungo
Member
Then stop insulting Catholics by referring to the Catholic Church as the RCC.
Johann!@#
Member
Who is insulting Catholics? You are in a desperate attempt to stigmatize me.
Question
Who is the One True Church?
Answer
There are many denominations that have declared themselves to be the "one true church": The Roman Catholic Church; the Orthodox Church; the Oriental Orthodox communion; and the Assyrian Church of the East to name just a few.
The Catholic Church in 1215 A.D. at the Fourth Lateran Council, Canon 1 stated, "There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice." In this, the RCC states they and they alone are the one true church! Along with this title, they claim to rule the church and to be the only ones that can correctly interpret the Scripture.
--However, this definition differs from the Bible tells us. The Apostle Paul states in Ephesians 2:19-21 that the church is:
... the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Briefly, from Paul's definition of the church we observe:
(1) The church (the saints, and members of the household of God, temple) began in the Old Testament. It consists of the elect (Eph 1:4-13) from all the ages (Heb. 11). The entire church - in both the Old and New Testaments - is the bride of Christ (Isa 54:4-8; 62:1-5; Jer 3:14; Hos 2:14-20; 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:22-33; Rev 19:7-9, et. al.). See "The Old/New Testament Church" below.
(2) With the word "foundation" we note the New Testament prophets and apostles are the agents of revelation by whom God speaks to his people. The prophets and apostles gave to the church the Word of God, which alone (without the tradition of man) is authoritative, sufficient, clear, and trustworthy, etc.
(3) That Christ is the chief "cornerstone" of his church. Christ holds his church together. He alone is the Head of the Church (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18). He is the Chief Shepherd of the church (1 Pet 5:4). He does not even mention or infer a pope.
(4) That the church is the "temple" of the Lord. The church is one made from "living stones" (1 Pet 2:5, 25) from the entire remnant of God's elect from every from every nation, tribe, people and language (Rev 5:9; 7:9). Therefore, the church is made up of numerous elect souls from various denominations - and some, especially like the early Apostles - not in a denomination at all.
As the Westminster Confession of Faith 25.1 states, "The catholic or universal Church which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all." Joel Beeke explains:
After Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Lord makes this remarkable pronouncement: "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18). The Greek word translated "church" means a number of persons called together in a public assembly (Acts 19:32, 39, 41). When the Jews translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek, this word was used for the congregation of Israel at Mt. Sinai (Deut. 4:10; 9:10), and later assemblies, especially for worship (2 Chron 6:3, 12, 13; Psa 22:22, 25; Joel 2:16). Christ seized this word with a rich history in Israel and claimed it as His own: My church. He is the Lord of the congregation of God's worshipers, the King of the true Israel (Phil 3:3). Christ builds the church by His power, and He promises that Satan will never overthrow it.
This church transcends each local congregation of worshipers. A local church can die spiritually (Rev.3:1). Christ Himself may remove its light (Rev 2:5). There are many sad sights of empty buildings where a church once met, or where formerly faithful churches have fallen into heresy. But Christ said that His church cannot fail.
Therefore Christ spoke of what the Westminster Confession calls "the catholic or universal church," both the church worldwide and the church in heaven and on earth.
The word "catholic" comes from a Greek word meaning universal or international, and does not necessarily or exclusively refer to Roman Catholicism.
Some of the church's members are already in glory (the church triumphant). Some still fight the good fight of the faith on earth (the church militant). But all are one people called out of the world into holy union with Christ (1 Cor 1:2). When we meet in local congregations, we join with saints in heaven and throughout the earth to worship God through Christ as one great assembly (Heb 12:22-24). The Confession has a number of things to say about the universal church.
First, this church is invisible. That does not mean its members are ghosts that meet in phantom buildings. It means that the universal church is defined in ways that are spiritually discerned and not physically seen.
The church is not a building, but a people who worship in spirit and truth, a temple built with living, personal stones (John 4:20-24; 1 Pet 2:5). It is not a particular denomination and cannot be defined by allegiance to any mere man such as the Pope of Rome (1 Cor 1:12-13). At certain times and places, the true church may exist as hidden gatherings of believers fiercely persecuted by leaders of the visible church (Rev 13:11-15).
We cannot produce a complete list of the church's members, for some whom we thought to be saved fall away and show that they never really belonged (1 John 2:19). Not everyone who confesses Jesus as Lord is known to Him or saved by Him (Matt 7:21-23). The church's membership is not defined by participation in baptism and the Lord's Supper, for some who receive the sacraments are not in Christ (Acts 8:13, 18-24; 1 Cor 10:1-8), and some true believers do not have the opportunity to receive them (Luke 23:39-43).
The true church is defined by invisible factors. The qualifications for membership are the secret election of God and the internal work of the Holy Spirit to produce faith. We can see evidence of these divine operations in the fruit of the Spirit, but the true identity of the church is invisible. Yet it is visible or known to God: "The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim 2:19).
Second, the church consists of the elect. God elected or chose individuals in order to save them from their sins, adopt them as His children and heirs, and make them holy by union with Christ (Eph 1:4). The church is "a chosen generation," joined to Christ who is Himself "chosen of God, and precious" (1 Pet 2:4, 9). The Bible says, "Christ died for the church" (Eph 5:25), that is, He decreed to redeem the elect long before any of them were born. Their names were "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world," and when they believe in the Lamb they overcome the world because by God's grace they are "called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev 17:8, 14).
Third, the church is in union with Christ as the bride or spouse of the Lord. The church was promised to Christ in God's eternal counsels (2 Tim 1:9), and is betrothed to Christ by the Spirit in effectual calling (1 Cor 1:9; 6:17). As Christ's spouse, the church is the object of Christ's redeeming love and His nourishing and cherishing affection (Eph 5:25, 28-29).
Fourth, the members of the church are joined to Christ in a living, organic, and personal union, knit to Him as closely as the members or parts of a man's body (Eph 5:30-31). Since Christ is the church's head, he rules over it as Lord and the true members of the church submit to His Word as it washes them clean (Eph 5:23, 24, 26).
This unspeakable privilege of union with Christ makes the church the recipient of the fulness of Christ's graces, "his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph 1:23). There is no station in life higher or more privileged than to be a member of the true church!
Yes?
Mungo
Member
This is nothing to do with who is the one true Church.Who is insulting Catholics? You are in a desperate attempt to stigmatize me.
Question
Who is the One True Church?
Answer
There are many denominations that have declared themselves to be the "one true church": The Roman Catholic Church; the Orthodox Church; the Oriental Orthodox communion; and the Assyrian Church of the East to name just a few.
The Catholic Church in 1215 A.D. at the Fourth Lateran Council, Canon 1 stated, "There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice." In this, the RCC states they and they alone are the one true church! Along with this title, they claim to rule the church and to be the only ones that can correctly interpret the Scripture.
--However, this definition differs from the Bible tells us. The Apostle Paul states in Ephesians 2:19-21 that the church is:
... the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Briefly, from Paul's definition of the church we observe:
(1) The church (the saints, and members of the household of God, temple) began in the Old Testament. It consists of the elect (Eph 1:4-13) from all the ages (Heb. 11). The entire church - in both the Old and New Testaments - is the bride of Christ (Isa 54:4-8; 62:1-5; Jer 3:14; Hos 2:14-20; 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:22-33; Rev 19:7-9, et. al.). See "The Old/New Testament Church" below.
(2) With the word "foundation" we note the New Testament prophets and apostles are the agents of revelation by whom God speaks to his people. The prophets and apostles gave to the church the Word of God, which alone (without the tradition of man) is authoritative, sufficient, clear, and trustworthy, etc.
(3) That Christ is the chief "cornerstone" of his church. Christ holds his church together. He alone is the Head of the Church (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18). He is the Chief Shepherd of the church (1 Pet 5:4). He does not even mention or infer a pope.
(4) That the church is the "temple" of the Lord. The church is one made from "living stones" (1 Pet 2:5, 25) from the entire remnant of God's elect from every from every nation, tribe, people and language (Rev 5:9; 7:9). Therefore, the church is made up of numerous elect souls from various denominations - and some, especially like the early Apostles - not in a denomination at all.
As the Westminster Confession of Faith 25.1 states, "The catholic or universal Church which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all." Joel Beeke explains:
After Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Lord makes this remarkable pronouncement: "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18). The Greek word translated "church" means a number of persons called together in a public assembly (Acts 19:32, 39, 41). When the Jews translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek, this word was used for the congregation of Israel at Mt. Sinai (Deut. 4:10; 9:10), and later assemblies, especially for worship (2 Chron 6:3, 12, 13; Psa 22:22, 25; Joel 2:16). Christ seized this word with a rich history in Israel and claimed it as His own: My church. He is the Lord of the congregation of God's worshipers, the King of the true Israel (Phil 3:3). Christ builds the church by His power, and He promises that Satan will never overthrow it.
This church transcends each local congregation of worshipers. A local church can die spiritually (Rev.3:1). Christ Himself may remove its light (Rev 2:5). There are many sad sights of empty buildings where a church once met, or where formerly faithful churches have fallen into heresy. But Christ said that His church cannot fail.
Therefore Christ spoke of what the Westminster Confession calls "the catholic or universal church," both the church worldwide and the church in heaven and on earth.
The word "catholic" comes from a Greek word meaning universal or international, and does not necessarily or exclusively refer to Roman Catholicism.
Some of the church's members are already in glory (the church triumphant). Some still fight the good fight of the faith on earth (the church militant). But all are one people called out of the world into holy union with Christ (1 Cor 1:2). When we meet in local congregations, we join with saints in heaven and throughout the earth to worship God through Christ as one great assembly (Heb 12:22-24). The Confession has a number of things to say about the universal church.
First, this church is invisible. That does not mean its members are ghosts that meet in phantom buildings. It means that the universal church is defined in ways that are spiritually discerned and not physically seen.
The church is not a building, but a people who worship in spirit and truth, a temple built with living, personal stones (John 4:20-24; 1 Pet 2:5). It is not a particular denomination and cannot be defined by allegiance to any mere man such as the Pope of Rome (1 Cor 1:12-13). At certain times and places, the true church may exist as hidden gatherings of believers fiercely persecuted by leaders of the visible church (Rev 13:11-15).
We cannot produce a complete list of the church's members, for some whom we thought to be saved fall away and show that they never really belonged (1 John 2:19). Not everyone who confesses Jesus as Lord is known to Him or saved by Him (Matt 7:21-23). The church's membership is not defined by participation in baptism and the Lord's Supper, for some who receive the sacraments are not in Christ (Acts 8:13, 18-24; 1 Cor 10:1-8), and some true believers do not have the opportunity to receive them (Luke 23:39-43).
The true church is defined by invisible factors. The qualifications for membership are the secret election of God and the internal work of the Holy Spirit to produce faith. We can see evidence of these divine operations in the fruit of the Spirit, but the true identity of the church is invisible. Yet it is visible or known to God: "The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim 2:19).
Second, the church consists of the elect. God elected or chose individuals in order to save them from their sins, adopt them as His children and heirs, and make them holy by union with Christ (Eph 1:4). The church is "a chosen generation," joined to Christ who is Himself "chosen of God, and precious" (1 Pet 2:4, 9). The Bible says, "Christ died for the church" (Eph 5:25), that is, He decreed to redeem the elect long before any of them were born. Their names were "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world," and when they believe in the Lamb they overcome the world because by God's grace they are "called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev 17:8, 14).
Third, the church is in union with Christ as the bride or spouse of the Lord. The church was promised to Christ in God's eternal counsels (2 Tim 1:9), and is betrothed to Christ by the Spirit in effectual calling (1 Cor 1:9; 6:17). As Christ's spouse, the church is the object of Christ's redeeming love and His nourishing and cherishing affection (Eph 5:25, 28-29).
Fourth, the members of the church are joined to Christ in a living, organic, and personal union, knit to Him as closely as the members or parts of a man's body (Eph 5:30-31). Since Christ is the church's head, he rules over it as Lord and the true members of the church submit to His Word as it washes them clean (Eph 5:23, 24, 26).
This unspeakable privilege of union with Christ makes the church the recipient of the fulness of Christ's graces, "his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all" (Eph 1:23). There is no station in life higher or more privileged than to be a member of the true church!
Yes?
It is about using the correct name for the Catholic Church.
Johann!@#
Member
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:2 For I made the decision not to have da'as of anything among you except Moshiach and nivlato al haEtz (his body –gufa, kerper--on the Tree Boim (Yiddish for tree), DEVARIM 21:23).
כי לא־אמרתי לדעת בתוככם דבר בלתי אם־ישוע המשיח והוא הנצלב׃
For I determined not to know anything among you (ou gar ekrina ti eidenai en humin). Literally, “For I did not decide to know anything among you.” The negative goes with ekrina, not with ti. Paul means that he did not think it fit or his business to know anything for his message beyond this “mystery of God.”
Save Jesus Christ (ei mē Iēsoun Christon). Both the person and the office (Lightfoot).
I had no intent to go beyond him and in particular, and him crucified (kai touton estaurōmenon). Literally, and this one as crucified (perfect passive participle). This phase in particular (1Co_1:18) was selected by Paul from the start as the centre of his gospel message. He decided to stick to it even after Athens where he was practically laughed out of court. The Cross added to the scandalon of the Incarnation, but Paul kept to the main track on coming to Corinth.
RWP.
J.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
PLEASE RETURN TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.
THANKS.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I'll have more to say on baptism later on...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I'm having difficult understanding why you're sending me to 1 Peter 3:15 and Colossians 4:2-6 where Paul is asking for prayer to open doors to speak the word of God.
This is exactly what Jesus told the Apostles to do.
Go is a command.
You'll find that I won't discuss grammar in other languages because I trust that the bible was translated correctly by its translators....if we had to know Hebrew and Koine Greek and Aramaic in order to read the bible, most of us would be unable to.
It is,, however, indeed an imperative sentence, as you've stated.
An imperative sentence is a sentence that expresses a direct command, request, invitations, warning, or instruction.
source: https://www.google.com/search?q=imp...57j0i512l8.1885j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Agreed.
OF ALL NATIONS is also spoken of in the Covenant with both Abraham and David.
I agree that Jesus telling the Apostles to baptize is an imperative.
We are told throughout the NT that we are to be baptized.
I don't follow you here.
Acts 2:38 speaks of the baptism of Jesus instead of the baptism of John.
The FORMULA is: In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
It is in the singular, as you've stated and this is why it's a formula.
Agreed.
Johann!@#
Member
What is The Baptism that saves us now?
Is baptism saving us? I mean, this is the topic of thid
This is how I have studied-most of my life, still do-the Morphologies and Syntax, not necessarily the MEANING of words-good work in looking this up-you are like a Berean.
No need to worry, I concur with you.
Later-when I get to know the ToS I will go into greater-in-depth details, at the moment still "feeling" my way around.
Glad we can agree.
J,
Those last three scriptures you gave mentions nothing about immersion in water. Full context can not be taken out of just one verse most of the time.
When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them just like all of us today that have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first. After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.
Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching what God gave Him to speak and do. It was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3, but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.
John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.
If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.