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What is the Purpose of the Law

  • Thread starter Thread starter manichunter
  • Start date Start date
The law does not sanctify anyone.
“By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.â€Â
(Hebrews 10:10 NASB)


Sanctification is duel in nature. It is an issue of position in Yeshua now and also an on going work to convert the soul into the image of Yeshua. The carnal man in others words has to renewed in his mind, affections turned towards God, and the identity changed. The spirit man is born again from above instantly at salvation (sanctified). The carnal man of the soul has to be drag the rest of the way by crucifixion and mortification (sanctification). Sanctification means to set aside for God for His holy use. Just so happen the carnal man continues to resist and rebel.
 
The law of Christ is the law of love, hence those who do not obey it suffer this fate:[/b]

Matt 25 41-46: "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
[/quote]


How do violate the law of love? What are ramifications spelled out? Does the law of love have rules?
 
manichunter said:
The law of Christ is the law of love, hence those who do not obey it suffer this fate:[/b]

Matt 25 41-46: "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
How do violate the law of love? What are ramifications spelled out? Does the law of love have rules?

The "rule" is to do good. You can extract examples from the above text. Compare the above text to what we Catholics call the "Corporal Works of Mercy":

Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Clothe the naked
Shelter the homeless
Visit the sick
Visit those in prison
Bury the dead

Hmmm. Sounds quite familir, eh?


So, as I said in a previous post:


...Paul says that we are justified by faith, but he never says faith alone. Regarding works, he says two things: First he says that a woking faith is what counts:

Galatians 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love

...but he also says we are not justified by works of the Law. The only way to harmonize these two scriptures is to understand that when Paul says "Law", he means "Torah". After all, Paul had been a Pharisee, and for him "Law" and "Torah" are synonymous. (In fact thew Hebrew word for Law IS Torah.) So what Paul is saying is that we are not justified by works of the Law/Torah. Amen to that! However, as I said previously, Christ ushered in a NEW law, and the works he commands us to do are charitable, works of love, moved by grace, BUT WORKS NONE THE LESS. That is why in Matt 25: 31-46, it is those who do good works that go to heaven, and the ones that don't are damned. Look at the works carefully: They are not the dead works of the Torah, but works of charity which Christ commands us to do: Works of love. ...
 
...but he also says we are not justified by works of the Law. The only way to harmonize these two scriptures is to understand that when Paul says "Law", he means "Torah". After all, Paul had been a Pharisee, and for him "Law" and "Torah" are synonymous. (In fact thew Hebrew word for Law IS Torah.) So what Paul is saying is that we are not justified by works of the Law/Torah. Amen to that! However, as I said previously, Christ ushered in a NEW law, and the works he commands us to do are charitable, works of love, moved by grace, BUT WORKS NONE THE LESS.
Ahh, you didn't actually read my post or the list of laws I presented. Jesus actually didn't introduce any new law. What He did was "add" to an already existing law.

Christ ushered in a NEW law, and the works he commands us to do are charitable, works of love, moved by grace
From the list of law commandments:

#11 To honor the old and the wise (Lev. 19:32) (CCA17).
#27 Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82).
#28 Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48).
#32 Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
#40 Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21) (CCN51).
#51 Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs
#53 To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19) (CCA61).
#54 Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20) (CCN49).
#174 To lend to a poor person
#175 Not to demand from a poor man repayment of his debt, when the creditor knows that he cannot pay, nor press him (Ex. 22:24) (CCN52).

Sounds familiar, heh? ;-)

Yes, I am well aware of what John 16:34 says. But what is it really saying? What does it mean?

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

The new commandment, precept actually, is to love as Jesus loved us. You won't find it in the Law. Why? Do we really need to ask? :-D
 
Hello manichunter! :)
Thanks for bringing attention such an important topic. In fact the Law is a very "foundation stone" of both Judaism AND Christianity. To attempt to "disect" the Law into various parts would be a mistake, especially since in Jesus' time "the Law" was considered as one. Neither Jesus nor any NT writer ever considered the Law to be made up of different sections. It was ALWAYS spoken of as being one thing, the universal outward form of all righteousness, God's righteousness!:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 2:17-20 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law

(underlines and color emphasis are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That being the case, the following verses written by Paul seem to pose quite a mystery:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient (helpful): all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cr 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient (beneficial): all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (underlines and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Maybe the answer to this apparent conundrum is here:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out (paying for) the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against us , which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace (the complete paying power of Jesus' shed blood).

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

(underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody can transgress a Law that's been "blotted out" (pre-paid from the foundation of the world).
So by destroying the judging/condemning power of the Law, Jesus has made it technically impossible to sin (or even be righteous in ourselves). That's why Paul could say: "All things are lawful for me." But let's not forget: "All things are not beneficial!"

I hurry to add: "Does this mean everyone's automatically saved?" No way! Each person must accept Christ's completed work for themselves personally. It can be as simple as the thief on the cross defending Jesus and asking to be remembered when Jesus comes into His Kingdom.

Grace then Peace,
"Arph"
---------------
 
vic C. said:
....Yes, I am well aware of what John 16:34 says. But what is it really saying? What does it mean?
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
The new commandment, precept actually, is to love as Jesus loved us. You won't find it in the Law. Why? Do we really need to ask? :-D
Call it law, call it commandment - if Christ says you must do it, then do it you must. The label is neither here nor there.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
...Call it law, call it commandment - if Christ says you must do it, then do it you must. The label is neither here nor there.
Hey bro, you're the one doing the dancing here. 8-) You said:

Also, he just says "The Law". He doesnt say the Torah, the OT Law, the Mosaic Law - he just says The Law. Perhaps some specificity is in order
Well, I gave you the specifics.

So again, using ALL that God has revealed, cover to cover, in the Bible, what is the purpose of the law?
 
The opening statement in this thread contains the following statement:

We all know that Yahweh gave man a law to live by in the First Covenant

The premise here is mistaken, insofar as God's "First Covenant" was actually a promise given to Abraham exclusive of any law what-so-ever.

Deuteronomy 4:31 "For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers (i.e. the "first" covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) which He swore to them."

Deuteronomy 5:2,3 "The LORD our God made a covenant (i.e. the Law of Moses) with us at Horeb. The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

In the context of when "the Law" was actually given, it was given as the Torah says, not to the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - and their seed), but was rather given to those who were under the guidance of Moses' leadership in the desert, and only for a time. The New Testament verifies that the covenant of the Law of Moses was temporary in nature, having come 430 years after God's covenant / promise to "the fathers", and applied only to those whom it was given under Moses' leadership for an appointed time - until the coming of the Messiah:

Galatians 3:17 "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundered and thirty later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise."

Indeed, the Law of Moses ended when Christ died.

"For Chirst is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)

Just as children are given rules by their parents to follow for their own good, so the Law of Moses was given to Israel to guide them in expressing their faith in God's promises, for their own good. And, just as parents punish children who violate the rules of a given household, accordingly, so also God used war, famine and disease to punish the nation of Israel for it's unbelief expressed in idolatry and evil behavior. In the end, the coersion of any form of law, whether religious or civil, only serves ultimately to stifle human freedom as God would have it. That freedom is found only under "the law of Christ", which is "the law of love". If we all loved our neighbor as ourselves, the need for "law" of any kind would dissolve. Indeed, it is in this wise exercise of freedom that we most closely reflect "the image of God".

So, my suggestion as to why the law was given, was so that it could be taken away. Seeing as it never could justify anyone (nor was it ever intended to), it's temporal nature is revealed in the good news of the kingdom of God that Jesus proclaimed. In God's kingdom, there will be no law at all, because "the old order of things" (like laws) will have "passed away". Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Grace and peace,
David
 
What did Paul mean by this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

8But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

He said the law is good if used lawfully. Consequently, it is not made for righteous persons.
 
Hi DM! :)

You mention some excellent points regarding the Law. Here are a couple additional that may serve to fill out "the picture" more clearly:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Rom 7:6-8 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

(color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead."

I think Paul is saying that giving a "thou shalt not" to an unspiritual person is like waving a red flag in front of a bull! :o The Law always provokes the flesh to rebellion and brings out underlying sin. Here's a cartoon that illustrates my point perfectly: http://www.mrboffo.com/comicsweb/catswi ... _s_web.jpg

After all, what good is a commandment if you can't break it?

Why is everything I like either illegal, immoral or fattening? :-?

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
------------
 
To the Berean I write (LOL)

How is the law good, but bad for believers (1 Tim 1: 3-11; 2 Tim 3: 10-17; 2 Tim 2:15; 1 Cor 5:7, 8; Acts 20:16; and ). Was Paul in error in Act 16:1-5, Acts:21:15-26. Let me know. Paul was in this thing with James, the brother of Yeshua. Paul followed the law, so why don't we. It is as Peter said about Paul, he is hard to understand and people twist his doctrine (2 Pet 3: 14-16). We have not properly understood the epistle of Paul since the 3rd century. Paul is probable rolling over in his grave hearing all this confusion (Joke LOL). We are in the same confusion today. We are existing lawlessly because we have had the law stolen from us. The law applies differently, but it still applies to believers. Our lack of any sort of application of the law has rendered us powerless, carnal, and divided.
We are not to follow the customs of man that the Jews created along side of the Law. Not even Jesus or Paul followed these things (Col 2:20-23; Matt 16:12; Matt 15:6). The traditions and customs the Jews followed sometimes get confused with the Torah.
 
CC,

You have offered commendable understanding. It would behove those that resist to LISTEN to what you have offered and LEARN.

FOLKS,

The PURPOSE of the LAW was as TEACHER. I don't believe that I SHOULD even have to offer scriture to BACK up this claim. For it is offered OVER AND OVER.

The LAW was meant to TEACH love. Love of God FIRST, and then, Love of NEIGHBOR. That the Jews BECAME followers of the Law through a simple 'BELIEF' in OBEDIENCE shows WHY Christ HAD to come in order for the LESSON to BE learned.

And CC is correct in that 'faith ALONE is DEAD'. It is no better than NO faith at all. Perhaps WORSE. For IF one simply relies on the FAITH that they build on the GIFT that has been offered, then there is ONLY 'false faith' in that the GIFT is CONDITIONAL.

While MANY would contend that ALL that they NEED do is SAY that they BELIEVE in Christ in order to BE 'saved', the Bible SPEAKS a different language. For WORDS mean little as compared to the TRUTH contained within one's HEART.

Those that TRULY confess and BELIEVE; WILL FOLLOW. And the FRUIT of The Spirit WILL be apparent in their WALK. NO, we CANNOT work our way to heaven. But we CANNOT just "sit back'' and expect to BE FED. For those that are NOT willing to WORK are not even deserving to EAT.

The LAW was given to a BEGINNING people. A people chosen by God to REVEAL Himself and HIS LOVE to. Since it is IMPOSSIBLE to TELL someone HOW to love, He offered the LAW as a TEACHER or GUIDE, if you will. Showing them WHAT one MUST do in order to SHOW love towards one another.

The Jews became simple FOLLOWERS of the LAW for the sake of obedience and FEW EVER came to an UNDERSTANDING of the WHY of LAW.

Then Christ was sent in order to offer the PERFECT EXAMPLE of LOVE. To TEACH in PERSON what the LAW was unable to DO. To SHOW HOW we are TO love God and EACH OTHER. To SHOW that it IS possible to GIVE instead of TAKE. To offer ULTIMATE sacrifice for OTHERS instead of simply concerning oneself with SELF. An example of TRUE love offered usward of HIS Father and HIMSELF.

So, while MANY would believe that the Law was MEANT to SHOW obedience, that is INCORRECT thinking or understanding. YES, God EXPECTED those that were given the LAW to ABIDE by it. But what He WANTED even MORE was for the LAW to fulfill what it was DESIGNED to do. Did He EXPECT it to DO that THEN? Most likely NOT. For we KNOW that He IS able to SEE into the hearts of those that He choses and MUST have KNOWN that the LAW was but the FIRST step in TEACHING His love.

So what I have offered is NOT condemnation of the Jews, but I have ATTEMPTED to SHOW that they were but BABES in relationship to what was to COME. As in, 'when I was a child I SPOKE as a child.......................''. There was that which was offered FIRST, and then there was that 'more perfect way.............'' that was offered LAST.

Now we are to BE conformed to the IMAGE in which we were 'created'. That of LOVE. We are ABLE NOW to have the LAWS of LOVE written in our HEARTS instead of on tablets of STONE. To be ABLE to UNDERSTAND that law and abide IN IT not BY it.

I HOPE that these words have been able to offer a more 'clear' picture of WHAT this discussion is ABOUT. And BELIEVE me, I am Well AWARE that MANY choose to IGNORE what has been offered for the sake of RELIGION over 'truth'. But the truth IS here for those that are ABLE to SEE it.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Hi Everyone! :)

Please notice carefully that these verses clearly say that you must obey all 613 of God's holy laws, not just the parts you might prefer. Otherwise all these curses will come upon you! And please remember what James says: "If you break even one of God's laws, you are guilty of them all." I think someone here recently posted a complete list of all 613. Could you please repost it. Thanks:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deu 28:15-68 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do ALL his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Deu 28:16 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the city, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the field.
Deu 28:17 Cursed [shall be] thy basket and thy store.
Deu 28:18 Cursed [shall be] the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

Deu 28:19 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou comest in, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou goest out.
Deu 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

Deu 28:21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 28:22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

Deu 28:23 And thy heaven that [is] over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee [shall be] iron.
Deu 28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Deu 28:25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
Deu 28:26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray [them] away.

Deu 28:27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods (tumors), and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
Deu 28:28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
Deu 28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save [thee].

Deu 28:30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
Deu 28:31 Thine ox [shall be] slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass [shall be] violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep [shall be] given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue [them].
Deu 28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters [shall be] given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail [with longing] for them all the day long: and [there shall be] no might in thine hand.

Deu 28:33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
Deu 28:34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
Deu 28:35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.

Deu 28:36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
Deu 28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
Deu 28:38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather [but] little in; for the locust shall consume it.
Deu 28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress [them], but shalt neither drink [of] the wine, nor gather [the grapes]; for the worms shall eat them.
Deu 28:40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint [thyself] with the oil; for thine olive shall cast [his fruit].

Deu 28:41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.
Deu 28:4 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.
Deu 28:43 The stranger that [is] within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
Deu 28:44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

Deu 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
Deu 28:46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
Deu 28:47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all [things];

Deu 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all [things]: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
Deu 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, [as swift] as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
Deu 28:50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

Deu 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which [also] shall not leave thee [either] corn, wine, or oil, [or] the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
Deu 28:52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Deu 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

Deu 28:54 [So that] the man [that is] tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
Deu 28:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
Deu 28:56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,

Deu 28:57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all [things] secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
Deu 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, [even] great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

Deu 28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
Deu 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which [is] not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
Deu 28:62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deu 28:63 And it shall come to pass, [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, [even] wood and stone.
Deu 28:65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

Deu 28:66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

Deu 28:67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

Deu 28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy [you].

(underlines and color emphases are my own).
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Based on the above curse, I would strongly suggest keeping every single one of all God's 613 holy laws. Remember Adam only broke ONE commandment and that was an absolute disaster!

Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
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Sorry Arph, but you are WAY wrong. Those 613 laws are part of the Fourth Covenant, with Moses, for the children of Israel: We are not bound by that covenant. We are bound by Christs commands. The biblical Covenants are:

Adamic (the covenant God made with Adam),
Noahite (the covenant God made with Noah),
Abrahamic (the covenant God made with Abraham),
Mosaic (the covenant God made with Moses),
Davidic (the covenant God made with David),
and New (the covenant God in the person of Jesus made with the world)


Each successive covenant encompasses a larger and larger group of people: Two, then a family, then on and on up to the whole wolrld. This is Gods plan, from the very beginning, of bringing more and more of the world back into his family. Thats what a covenant is: An entrance into a family.

Each successive covenant has a different sign, such as Noah's rainbow, then on to circumcision, etc.

So, again: Those 613 laws you mention are part of the Fourth Covenant, with Moses and Israel: We are not bound by that covenant. We are bound by Christs commands, and Saturday Sabbath keeping, just as one example, isnt one of them.

(*NOTE, for your information: Covenantal theology has its roots in Patristic interpretation of Scripture. Notable for the theology of history are Irenaeus's emphasis on the unity of the Old and New Testaments in "Against Heresies" and Augustine's explication of that unity through the "two cities" theme in The City of God (Books XI-XXII). Closely related are the exegetical methods by which Scripture is explained according to its "spiritual senses". These developments were organized by the scholastics into the doctrine of the "four senses," encompassing the literal sense and the three spiritual senses (allegorical, moral, and anagogical). The allegorical sense relates persons, events, and institutions of earlier covenants to those of later covenants (and especially to the New Covenant), thereby situating "spiritual" exegesis within the covenantal theology of history.)
 
Hey CC! :)

This sounds like the New Testament to me. Which Law is James talking about here? The Law is simply the form of knowledge, truth, and righteousness to be obeyed in order to live and not die, not a two-sided covenant. And all the curses in Deut. 28 are not a covenant but simply the natural consequences of disregarding the Lord, the source of one's life and health:
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Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

(underline and color emphasis are my own).
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So which "handwriting of ordinances" did Christ blot out?

Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
---------------
 
So which "handwriting of ordinances" did Christ blot out?

Sinning is thinning

If there were ever an argument against Sola Scriptura, this thread is it
 
Arphaxad said:
Hi Everyone! :)

Please notice carefully that these verses clearly say that you must obey all 613 of God's holy laws, not just the parts you might prefer. Otherwise all these curses will come upon you! And please remember what James says: "If you break even one of God's laws, you are guilty of them all." I think someone here recently posted a complete list of all 613. Could you please repost it. Thanks:...
No problem! It was over on page two of this thread.

vic C. said:
Lets get our ducks in a row. Lets look at what makes up the Law. There are 613 of them. Here is a list:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

...Based on the above curse, I would strongly suggest keeping every single one of all God's 613 holy laws. Remember Adam only broke ONE commandment and that was an absolute disaster!
... and this is what some of us have been trying to say. It was the point of my mirror analogy and the point to what was written by James. Try as you might, but eventually it will come down to hedging some of the laws, looking for some sort of loophole to circumvent one or more of them. They couldn't do it in Jesus time and it can't be done now.
 
vic C. said:
...looking for some sort of loophole to circumvent one or more of them. They couldn't do it in Jesus time and it can't be done now.
Are you saying we are bound by the 613 laws of Deuteronomy?
 
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