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manichunter
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Re-post since I the site would not allow me to re-edit.
Did Jesus Lie
The Jesus the incarnate Scripture Himself said Matt 5:17-20 17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
How can this be so easily dismissed or explained any other way. He said as long as you see Earth, you will also have Torah. The truth can be found if we are willing to challenge our traditions. We have put Jesus and Paul in conflict with one another. The problem might be with us and our understanding of Scripture.
How is the law good, but bad for gentile believers (1 Tim 1: 3-11; 2 Tim 3: 10-17; 2 Tim 2:15; 1 Cor 5:7, 8; Acts 20:16; and ). Was Paul in error in Act 16:1-5, Acts 21:15-26. Let me know. Paul was in agreement along with James, the brother of Yeshua. Paul followed the law to a certain degree, so why don't we. The above text showed that Paul honoured some aspects of the Torah to include the keeping of the Feast dates and instructions of morality.
Is the law still good for teaching us about who we are, who God is, and guide how we should respond to both Yahweh and man out of love. This issue has been the central topic of debate since the day of Pentecost when the laws where put into man’s heart. According to 2Ti 3:16 Torah is good for teaching. Paul wrote this Timothy before the existence of any compiled Second Covenant Scripture. Hence what was Timothy to teach from as Scripture, Torah? As Paul said, “for All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good workâ€Â.
It is as Peter said about Paul? Paul is hard to understand and people twist his doctrine (2 Pet 3: 14-16). Have we not properly understood the epistle of Paul since the 3rd century? There have been a great many of apologist that have expanded on the writings of Paul from Justin to Billy Graham. However, they were all gentile believers and controversy surrounded some of them. We have no recorded history of any Jewish Christian apologist to level the playing ground for this debate. Paul is probable rolling over in his grave hearing all this confusion (Joke LOL).
This matter has yet to be resolved because confusion still rules the Universal Body of Christ. We exist in a state of lawlessness because there are so many laws, one each per denomination. The problem could come from a lack of an unifying and common foundation. We say that this foundation is Christ, but we walk away from Him divided; and this is not of God. What has Yeshua sat above Himself? What has Yahweh declared will never pass away even if heaven and earth pass away (Luke 21:33)? He promised that His Scripture would never pass away. Since we still see a world, we can conclude that there is still Scripture. If there is still Scripture, then it still applies. The Scripture contains rules for guiding and controlling our behaviour towards God and others. If you asked most one year old questions are rules for conduct in the Scripture, they would say yes. This denomination says you cannot dress like that, that denomination says that you can’t speak like that, and that denomination says you have to be baptized like this. Ate these not a man made rules created from our own soul? Has this path of separate rules led to factionalism, confusion and a state of lawlessness? So, why are playing with words. The word “rule†is synonymous with the word “lawâ€Â. So we have a Body of Christ that has over a thousand little torahs per denomination. We use words like church creed and statement of beliefs, and we ask people to observe them to establish legitimacy within the denomination. We consider anyone not following the torah of the denomination to be in error. We ask people to follow them in order to maintain fellowship. Hence this is the establishment of torah. So, let’s not fool ourselves, we have torahs, but is it the Torah of the Bible.
The question should be, “How does Scripture in context of the Torah apply to believers today.†The Torah still applies to believers today. Our lack of any sort of application of the Torah has rendered us powerless, carnal, and divided. We have either completely thrown out the Law and say we now depend on grace that allows human arbitration or repackaged some of it into the image of our own ideologies.
When I say Torah, I mean the Scripture as given to Moses. Not the Misnah or any other Jewish book because, we are not to follow the traditions created by man that the Jews created along side of the Torah. Not even Jesus or Paul followed these things traditions (Col 2:20-23; Matt 16:12; Matt 15:6). The traditions and customs the Jews are sometimes mistaken as Torah. They are not Torah; they are commentaries of the Torah.
In Biblical terms the word Torah really means instructions in the fashion of a father would give a child, not law. It is not to be relate from a government prospective to a group of subjects. It was the means of a mentor handing down character and traits to a pupil by example and instructions.
This is how Torah changed in the Second Covenant. The Torah was written on our heart by the Holy Spirit and circumcision is now of the heart. Circumcision of the heart is now the sign of the covenant. The Torah is not supposed to be practiced in flesh, but practiced in the Spirit. (Jer 31:31-34, Rom 2:29)
There is a difference of being under the supervision of the law and following the law. We are no longer under the law as a means of justification, which comes entirely by faith in the offering of Yeshua. The law cannot make one righteous before God. I repeat the law cannot establish any righteousness for mankind. However, it still generates holiness (1 Pet 1:14, 15; Lev 20:7,8). We still should respect and observe the unfulfilled Torah (civil and moral aspects). The fulfilled Torah still has spiritual principle we should respect as well (ceremonial aspects).
Dan 7:23-25, shows that the enemy has intentions of distorting the subject of the law for a reason. The devil has succeeded with the device before by stopping people from observing the law and festivals. Israel threw out the law as well several times to their detriment. The law cannot serve its purpose if it is being ignored and rejected.
We all know that Yahweh gave man a law to live by in the First Covenant. However, this law could not be kept by them, because the carnal nature was too inclined to sin, rebel, and be selfish. We were corrupted by sin to serve it. Hence we could not satisfy the righteousness required of the law. It showed Yahweh to be holy and man to be desperately wicked.
Hence, Yahweh took it upon Himself to meet the righteousness required of the law and establish the means of our justification for eternal fellowship. Yahweh came in the form of the flesh as man in soul and divine in spirit. His nature was not enslaved to sin because He had a nature that was completely spiritual, eternal, and unselfish. He established a second covenant with Himself and grafted believers into this covenant as a gift.
He came in the person of Yeshua (Yahweh provides salvation). Yeshua fulfilled the righteousness requirement of the law. Now we are no longer asked by Yahweh to earn our salvation by keeping the law, we simply trust that Yeshua did it for us as our kinsman redeemer. The works of regeneration, justification, and conversion have been fulfilled in the works of the Christ. The work of adoption has been done by the inscribing of the law in our heart and mind by the Holy Spirit. The work of glorification by the Spirit is awaiting me at my release into eternal life.
However, the work of sanctification is still progressing as we live. How are we sanctified? The work of sanctification is the means to be holy. It is in our keeping of the law by the Spirit that we are sanctified unto holiness. The law no longer attempts to justify us, but it does sanctify us.
Multiple purposes of the Law (Gal 3: 19-25)
1.The law is a means to so us what sin is. (Rom 7:7)
2.It is a means to show us the person and character of Yahweh and Yeshua. (2 Cor 5:21)
3.It is a means of showing us what we are in contrast to Yahweh. (Rom 3:21-23)
4.It is the means of showing us how to love God and man. (Matt 22: 34-40)
5.It is the means the Holy Spirit uses to sanctify us, so we can be holy in our manner of conduct. (Universal Standard) (2 Tim 3: 14-17) Note- consider what Scripture Timothy had been taught since his childhood. Timothy had been taught the First Covenant Scripture as his source of instruction, conduct, and doctrine he taught others in turn. This is what He also taught others as directed by Paul his mentor.
6.It is the means of establishing one accord as one standard of expected conduct. (Acts 2:42)
Yeshua said that He did not come to destroy the law, which means it is still around (Matt 5:17-20). He stated that it will be around until it is all fulfilled. It is not all fulfilled. The last Festivals have yet to be brought out of the shadows. They tell of Yeshua's second physical coming. This is not the first time that the enemy has thrown believers off their game. Dan 7:23-25, says this is what Satan does and will continue to do. He desires to confuse the whole subject of the law and times. There is evidence of confusion being somewhat rooted in the Body of Christ.
The ceremonial law has been fulfilled by Yeshua. The required sin offering for the forgiveness of sin has been fulfilled. Hence no need of sacrificing a sin offering. The sweet smelling offerings have now become symbolical. The burnt offering, peace offering, and meat offering are lived by keeping the principles and patterns established in the instructions of these offering. The trespass offering is also lived in principle now. Restitution has to be made when we harm and cause our brother loss. Hence the ceremonial aspects of the law are kept by living the principles established by them. Paul said twice in Scripture that he was being poured out as a drink offering (Phil 2:17; 2 Tim 4: 6). What did he mean by being poured out as a drink offering? It meant that he was being a living sacrifice in connection to the meal offering for a particular reason and fashion. You cannot know this without knowing the ceremonial aspects of law. This same symbolic act of Paul is required of us today. We are also required to be a drink offering. However, most believers are ignorant the law, hence they cannot be a proper offering in reference to them presenting themselves as a living sacrifice as commanded by scripture (Rom 12:1).
The moral law is also kept by immediate obedience to the contract of adoption by establishing a covenant that breeched our differences with God and formed our union and agreement. This law was written in our heart by the Spirit Holy through the circumcision of the heart. It is the day that the Holy Spirit establishes an individual covenant with a person.
The civil law is kept by obeying the laws of the land and the principles of Scripture that govern our relationships with our brother and unbeliever. So, laws like not charging a fellowship interest on a loan still apply.
We are now required to live Torah through the power of the Holy Spirit and in the power of Him already coming. The torah has been written on our heart and the Spirit will cause all true believers to keep His commandments. We can no longer accomplish Torah in the power of our own flesh and strength.
I think there are more purposes and info required for a message I am preparing, but I need the help of other posters.
Did Jesus Lie
The Jesus the incarnate Scripture Himself said Matt 5:17-20 17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
How can this be so easily dismissed or explained any other way. He said as long as you see Earth, you will also have Torah. The truth can be found if we are willing to challenge our traditions. We have put Jesus and Paul in conflict with one another. The problem might be with us and our understanding of Scripture.
How is the law good, but bad for gentile believers (1 Tim 1: 3-11; 2 Tim 3: 10-17; 2 Tim 2:15; 1 Cor 5:7, 8; Acts 20:16; and ). Was Paul in error in Act 16:1-5, Acts 21:15-26. Let me know. Paul was in agreement along with James, the brother of Yeshua. Paul followed the law to a certain degree, so why don't we. The above text showed that Paul honoured some aspects of the Torah to include the keeping of the Feast dates and instructions of morality.
Is the law still good for teaching us about who we are, who God is, and guide how we should respond to both Yahweh and man out of love. This issue has been the central topic of debate since the day of Pentecost when the laws where put into man’s heart. According to 2Ti 3:16 Torah is good for teaching. Paul wrote this Timothy before the existence of any compiled Second Covenant Scripture. Hence what was Timothy to teach from as Scripture, Torah? As Paul said, “for All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good workâ€Â.
It is as Peter said about Paul? Paul is hard to understand and people twist his doctrine (2 Pet 3: 14-16). Have we not properly understood the epistle of Paul since the 3rd century? There have been a great many of apologist that have expanded on the writings of Paul from Justin to Billy Graham. However, they were all gentile believers and controversy surrounded some of them. We have no recorded history of any Jewish Christian apologist to level the playing ground for this debate. Paul is probable rolling over in his grave hearing all this confusion (Joke LOL).
This matter has yet to be resolved because confusion still rules the Universal Body of Christ. We exist in a state of lawlessness because there are so many laws, one each per denomination. The problem could come from a lack of an unifying and common foundation. We say that this foundation is Christ, but we walk away from Him divided; and this is not of God. What has Yeshua sat above Himself? What has Yahweh declared will never pass away even if heaven and earth pass away (Luke 21:33)? He promised that His Scripture would never pass away. Since we still see a world, we can conclude that there is still Scripture. If there is still Scripture, then it still applies. The Scripture contains rules for guiding and controlling our behaviour towards God and others. If you asked most one year old questions are rules for conduct in the Scripture, they would say yes. This denomination says you cannot dress like that, that denomination says that you can’t speak like that, and that denomination says you have to be baptized like this. Ate these not a man made rules created from our own soul? Has this path of separate rules led to factionalism, confusion and a state of lawlessness? So, why are playing with words. The word “rule†is synonymous with the word “lawâ€Â. So we have a Body of Christ that has over a thousand little torahs per denomination. We use words like church creed and statement of beliefs, and we ask people to observe them to establish legitimacy within the denomination. We consider anyone not following the torah of the denomination to be in error. We ask people to follow them in order to maintain fellowship. Hence this is the establishment of torah. So, let’s not fool ourselves, we have torahs, but is it the Torah of the Bible.
The question should be, “How does Scripture in context of the Torah apply to believers today.†The Torah still applies to believers today. Our lack of any sort of application of the Torah has rendered us powerless, carnal, and divided. We have either completely thrown out the Law and say we now depend on grace that allows human arbitration or repackaged some of it into the image of our own ideologies.
When I say Torah, I mean the Scripture as given to Moses. Not the Misnah or any other Jewish book because, we are not to follow the traditions created by man that the Jews created along side of the Torah. Not even Jesus or Paul followed these things traditions (Col 2:20-23; Matt 16:12; Matt 15:6). The traditions and customs the Jews are sometimes mistaken as Torah. They are not Torah; they are commentaries of the Torah.
In Biblical terms the word Torah really means instructions in the fashion of a father would give a child, not law. It is not to be relate from a government prospective to a group of subjects. It was the means of a mentor handing down character and traits to a pupil by example and instructions.
This is how Torah changed in the Second Covenant. The Torah was written on our heart by the Holy Spirit and circumcision is now of the heart. Circumcision of the heart is now the sign of the covenant. The Torah is not supposed to be practiced in flesh, but practiced in the Spirit. (Jer 31:31-34, Rom 2:29)
There is a difference of being under the supervision of the law and following the law. We are no longer under the law as a means of justification, which comes entirely by faith in the offering of Yeshua. The law cannot make one righteous before God. I repeat the law cannot establish any righteousness for mankind. However, it still generates holiness (1 Pet 1:14, 15; Lev 20:7,8). We still should respect and observe the unfulfilled Torah (civil and moral aspects). The fulfilled Torah still has spiritual principle we should respect as well (ceremonial aspects).
Dan 7:23-25, shows that the enemy has intentions of distorting the subject of the law for a reason. The devil has succeeded with the device before by stopping people from observing the law and festivals. Israel threw out the law as well several times to their detriment. The law cannot serve its purpose if it is being ignored and rejected.
We all know that Yahweh gave man a law to live by in the First Covenant. However, this law could not be kept by them, because the carnal nature was too inclined to sin, rebel, and be selfish. We were corrupted by sin to serve it. Hence we could not satisfy the righteousness required of the law. It showed Yahweh to be holy and man to be desperately wicked.
Hence, Yahweh took it upon Himself to meet the righteousness required of the law and establish the means of our justification for eternal fellowship. Yahweh came in the form of the flesh as man in soul and divine in spirit. His nature was not enslaved to sin because He had a nature that was completely spiritual, eternal, and unselfish. He established a second covenant with Himself and grafted believers into this covenant as a gift.
He came in the person of Yeshua (Yahweh provides salvation). Yeshua fulfilled the righteousness requirement of the law. Now we are no longer asked by Yahweh to earn our salvation by keeping the law, we simply trust that Yeshua did it for us as our kinsman redeemer. The works of regeneration, justification, and conversion have been fulfilled in the works of the Christ. The work of adoption has been done by the inscribing of the law in our heart and mind by the Holy Spirit. The work of glorification by the Spirit is awaiting me at my release into eternal life.
However, the work of sanctification is still progressing as we live. How are we sanctified? The work of sanctification is the means to be holy. It is in our keeping of the law by the Spirit that we are sanctified unto holiness. The law no longer attempts to justify us, but it does sanctify us.
Multiple purposes of the Law (Gal 3: 19-25)
1.The law is a means to so us what sin is. (Rom 7:7)
2.It is a means to show us the person and character of Yahweh and Yeshua. (2 Cor 5:21)
3.It is a means of showing us what we are in contrast to Yahweh. (Rom 3:21-23)
4.It is the means of showing us how to love God and man. (Matt 22: 34-40)
5.It is the means the Holy Spirit uses to sanctify us, so we can be holy in our manner of conduct. (Universal Standard) (2 Tim 3: 14-17) Note- consider what Scripture Timothy had been taught since his childhood. Timothy had been taught the First Covenant Scripture as his source of instruction, conduct, and doctrine he taught others in turn. This is what He also taught others as directed by Paul his mentor.
6.It is the means of establishing one accord as one standard of expected conduct. (Acts 2:42)
Yeshua said that He did not come to destroy the law, which means it is still around (Matt 5:17-20). He stated that it will be around until it is all fulfilled. It is not all fulfilled. The last Festivals have yet to be brought out of the shadows. They tell of Yeshua's second physical coming. This is not the first time that the enemy has thrown believers off their game. Dan 7:23-25, says this is what Satan does and will continue to do. He desires to confuse the whole subject of the law and times. There is evidence of confusion being somewhat rooted in the Body of Christ.
The ceremonial law has been fulfilled by Yeshua. The required sin offering for the forgiveness of sin has been fulfilled. Hence no need of sacrificing a sin offering. The sweet smelling offerings have now become symbolical. The burnt offering, peace offering, and meat offering are lived by keeping the principles and patterns established in the instructions of these offering. The trespass offering is also lived in principle now. Restitution has to be made when we harm and cause our brother loss. Hence the ceremonial aspects of the law are kept by living the principles established by them. Paul said twice in Scripture that he was being poured out as a drink offering (Phil 2:17; 2 Tim 4: 6). What did he mean by being poured out as a drink offering? It meant that he was being a living sacrifice in connection to the meal offering for a particular reason and fashion. You cannot know this without knowing the ceremonial aspects of law. This same symbolic act of Paul is required of us today. We are also required to be a drink offering. However, most believers are ignorant the law, hence they cannot be a proper offering in reference to them presenting themselves as a living sacrifice as commanded by scripture (Rom 12:1).
The moral law is also kept by immediate obedience to the contract of adoption by establishing a covenant that breeched our differences with God and formed our union and agreement. This law was written in our heart by the Spirit Holy through the circumcision of the heart. It is the day that the Holy Spirit establishes an individual covenant with a person.
The civil law is kept by obeying the laws of the land and the principles of Scripture that govern our relationships with our brother and unbeliever. So, laws like not charging a fellowship interest on a loan still apply.
We are now required to live Torah through the power of the Holy Spirit and in the power of Him already coming. The torah has been written on our heart and the Spirit will cause all true believers to keep His commandments. We can no longer accomplish Torah in the power of our own flesh and strength.
I think there are more purposes and info required for a message I am preparing, but I need the help of other posters.
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