What is the Trinity?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RandyK,

I understand, but in all honesty, your argument sounds "contrived" and artificial, designed simply to prove a point of view you wish to believe. I say this because it is all based on assumptions, that the angels were there from the beginning, involved in Creation

It is the only explanation that I find plausible and I also see the Angels active in the Garden in Genesis 2 and 3 even though this is not explicitly stated. We are also introduced to the Cherubim, but not much detail is divulged. God in his wisdom has left us to explore this theme throughout the Bible.

and that language was not "borrowed" from pagan cultures by the biblical authors

I certainly do not accept that the language and any of the ideas were derived from pagan cultures or traditions.

You are therefore assuming that "Elohim," being plural, and including the plural pronouns, must indicate angels are included. Again, the argument and the conclusion are largely built on assumptions, which is very hard for anybody to hang their beliefs on.

Yes in the context of Genesis 1:26-27 and also based upon Psalm 8:5. Each context is important and I find the exposition of the Yahweh Name very interesting and important, and also how this is used throughout the OT together with the various titles of God. I was the reader of our text at the meeting this morning, Isaiah 40, and as well as the word God (Elohim) occurring numerous times, there were many occurrences of LORD (Yahweh) and one occurrence of Lord GOD (Adonai Yahweh). A proper understanding of each of these give a better understanding of the chapter.

This is a good example of building a theology on the sketchiest of biblical words and statements, instead of trusting that the Holy Spirit will make the most important truths clear and repeated.

I certainly see the need to understand the most important truths. I do not anticipate direct Holy Spirit guidance as the means of attaining this, but by a quiet meditation and consideration of the Word.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RandyK]

Greetings again RandyK,

It is the only explanation that I find plausible and I also see the Angels active in the Garden in Genesis 2 and 3 even though this is not explicitly stated. We are also introduced to the Cherubim, but not much detail is divulged. God in his wisdom has left us to explore this theme throughout the Bible.

That's obviously true to some degree. Angels are there as "cherubim" in the Garden from the beginning, and we have no choice but to speculate on it. Angels are woven into the inner walls of the tabernacle, to some degree, and again--we are left to speculate.

But I think the idea is not to send us off on a wild joy ride, guessing about this or that like a pack of wild-eyed Gnostics! ;) Rather, we are invited to look at the whole package together. I just don't see anything that remotely suggests what you're saying, that angels participated in the Creation. They are *part of* the Creation, and as such, cannot participate with God as Creator. Or, do I have you wrong?

I certainly do not accept that the language and any of the ideas were derived from pagan cultures or traditions.

So, you think Elohim--plural, is the product of Divine revelation, and not pagan superstition? I think otherwise, because "Elohim" suggests a multiplicity of gods, which was at the time of the writing part of the world culture overall. Language would reflect what people were talking about and thinking at the time.

The idea of an "angelic language" means that God is in another universe, not connected to human experience. And this causes problems I think?

Yes in the context of Genesis 1:26-27 and also based upon Psalm 8:5. Each context is important and I find the exposition of the Yahweh Name very interesting and important, and also how this is used throughout the OT together with the various titles of God. I was the reader of our text at the meeting this morning, Isaiah 40, and as well as the word God (Elohim) occurring numerous times, there were many occurrences of LORD (Yahweh) and one occurrence of Lord GOD (Adonai Yahweh). A proper understanding of each of these give a better understanding of the chapter.

My own view is that looking at just the names is too narrow to come to any important conclusion about God. It's like saying, Here's Richard--and since you now know his name you certainly know what he is about because his name means such and such. Doesn't work for me!

I certainly see the need to understand the most important truths. I do not anticipate direct Holy Spirit guidance as the means of attaining this, but by a quiet meditation and consideration of the Word.

I'm not sure why the need for "quiet" meditation, because what God says in an important way should be "shouted from the housetops!" But I know what you mean. Some things require intense scrutiny and less interference.

Well, good luck figuring it out. I just suggest you determine things from a much larger frame of reference. Otherwise, you'll get lost, I think, in the minutia and speculate too much on it?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RandyK,

Angels are there as "cherubim" in the Garden from the beginning, and we have no choice but to speculate on it.

I consider that the Cherubim that were placed at the entrance to the Garden after the transgression are part of a different theme, while i consider that Angels were active in the Garden before the transgression.

Angels are woven into the inner walls of the tabernacle, to some degree, and again--we are left to speculate.

It directly states Cherubim, not Angels and there were also Cherubim mounted on the Ark of the Testimony or Covenant in the Most Holy Place. A gradual building up of the theme.

we are invited to look at the whole package together.

Yes, the theme continues in Isaiah 6 and Ezekiel and Revelation 4 and elsewhere.

They (the angels) are *part of* the Creation, and as such, cannot participate with God as Creator. Or, do I have you wrong?

The Angels existed before the Creation record of six days in Genesis 1. There is no record of when they were created in Genesis.

So, you think Elohim--plural, is the product of Divine revelation, and not pagan superstition?

Yes. God is very careful and precise in all aspects about the revelation of Himself, and these are His Name Yahweh and the various Titles.

The idea of an "angelic language" means that God is in another universe, not connected to human experience. And this causes problems I think?

Whatever language it was, Adam talked with the Angels and we have the record of the conversation in Hebrew and now in an English translation. No problem here.

My own view is that looking at just the names is too narrow to come to any important conclusion about God. It's like saying, Here's Richard--and since you now know his name you certainly know what he is about because his name means such and such. Doesn't work for me!

There is a big difference today when we randomly allocate names to our children, and the Name and Titles that God has chosen to reveal many aspects of His Being, His character and His purpose.

Well, good luck figuring it out. I just suggest you determine things from a much larger frame of reference. Otherwise, you'll get lost, I think, in the minutia and speculate too much on it?

A reasonable suggestion. I enjoy both the overall view and some concentration on relevant and interesting detail. For example I very much like Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6 and ALL the detail and both of these are quoted often in the NT. I wish you well in your studies and progress.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RandyK]

Greetings again RandyK,

I consider that the Cherubim that were placed at the entrance to the Garden after the transgression are part of a different theme, while i consider that Angels were active in the Garden before the transgression.

It directly states Cherubim, not Angels and there were also Cherubim mounted on the Ark of the Testimony or Covenant in the Most Holy Place. A gradual building up of the theme.

Hi Trevor, This is not really the subject we were on, but I'm just curious: how do you differentiate between cherubim and angels? I always thought they were part of the same genre--just the difference between one order of angels and the general genre.

I don't know. All I know is that cherubim have a different name than "angel."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RandyK,

This is not really the subject we were on, but I'm just curious: how do you differentiate between cherubim and angels? I always thought they were part of the same genre--just the difference between one order of angels and the general genre.

I will give a brief overview of my assessment, and some of the reasons that have contributed to my conclusions. We meet them first guarding the entrance to the Garden of Eden, and I consider their role as twofold. Firstly to prevent illegal entry so that mortal sinning man could not grasp at the tree of life and thus live forever (hence no immortal souls). I also consider that they were there to teach spiritual lessons concerning the way to the tree of life. Thus both positive and negative lessons concerning what I consider to be an early depiction of holiness and ultimately the Most Holy Place.

The Cherubim were also depicted in embroidery in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle and especially on the Vail. They were also part of the Ark in the Most Holy Place, beholding the Mercy Seat. They had wings and the four different faces were the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

The Cherubim were also revealed in the Vision to Ezekiel and each Cherubim had four wings and each also had the four faces mentioned above. There were four Cherubim in a formation with the Throne elevated in the midst.

The Seraphim of Isaiah seem very similar, but had six wings. The actual faces are not described. They were active around the Lord sitting on the Temple Throne in the Most Holy Place. Their six wings depicted certain activities, which are not clearly defined as to the meaning of this.

The four Living Creatures of Revelation 4 have six wings, but each Living Creature has only one face apiece, the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

Partly because of these divergences, and partly because I do not believe that any Angel has four faces, especially animal faces, then I consider the Cherubim to be symbolic Creatures. Angels appeared to various faithful, and were sometimes mistaken as men at first, and as a result I do not believe that Angels have wings as is often depicted in Art and Literature. I consider that the Cherubim of Genesis 3 were actually Angels acting the role of Cherubim, setting the role of the theme of guardians of the Most Holy. Perhaps this is where some of the confusion arises.

On the basis of the above, I then draw many lessons adding to these details, and perhaps one is that Jesus is called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. You may disagree with some of my "additional details" that I have not disclosed, both concerning the Cherubim and Seraphim and also the Living Creatures, but I would be interested in your assessment of what I have already stated..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

Ok. I agree the Angel of the LORD was not God the Father.

No one in the Old Testament ever saw God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18


However, Moses saw God, He was seeing the Angel of the LORD.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed… Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1,6

Jesus declared another as their God.
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

If God spoke through His prophets and by His Son in these last days, why can't He speak by His Angel?

I believe the Spirit of God was there along with His angel. The Angel was standing in the presence of God, and it was holy ground. The words spoken where from the mind of the Spirit.

Seeing an Angel of the Lord appear suddenly in front of you would tend to make one fearful.

Jacob wrestled with an Angel, yet he stated He saw Gods face and lived.

I believe TrevorL is Christadelphian, and they hold to Jesus as the Son of God and the Son is a glorified man. A biblical unitarian belief.

Yet even so the church believes God the Son descended and became flesh but state He had the spirit of a man. So in a way despite what they state they believe Jesus's spirit and body were formed in Mary's womb. A created Son of Man sounds unitarian to me. And when asked what part of the Son descended into that body if not His own spirit can't give an answer other then He descended. If asked if Jesus had a human body and a human spirit what part of Him was God, the orthodox answer would be all of Him. Clearly if the spirit of the son who was wasn't in that body then the answer is none of Him. The spirit of a man did not descend from heaven.

 

[RandyK]

Greetings again RandyK,

I will give a brief overview of my assessment, and some of the reasons that have contributed to my conclusions. We meet them first guarding the entrance to the Garden of Eden, and I consider their role as twofold. Firstly to prevent illegal entry so that mortal sinning man could not grasp at the tree of life and thus live forever (hence no immortal souls). I also consider that they were there to teach spiritual lessons concerning the way to the tree of life. Thus both positive and negative lessons concerning what I consider to be an early depiction of holiness and ultimately the Most Holy Place.

The Cherubim were also depicted in embroidery in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle and especially on the Vail. They were also part of the Ark in the Most Holy Place, beholding the Mercy Seat. They had wings and the four different faces were the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

The Cherubim were also revealed in the Vision to Ezekiel and each Cherubim had four wings and each also had the four faces mentioned above. There were four Cherubim in a formation with the Throne elevated in the midst.

The Seraphim of Isaiah seem very similar, but had six wings. The actual faces are not described. They were active around the Lord sitting on the Temple Throne in the Most Holy Place. Their six wings depicted certain activities, which are not clearly defined as to the meaning of this.

The four Living Creatures of Revelation 4 have six wings, but each Living Creature has only one face apiece, the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

Partly because of these divergences, and partly because I do not believe that any Angel has four faces, especially animal faces, then I consider the Cherubim to be symbolic Creatures. Angels appeared to various faithful, and were sometimes mistaken as men at first, and as a result I do not believe that Angels have wings as is often depicted in Art and Literature. I consider that the Cherubim of Genesis 3 were actually Angels acting the role of Cherubim, setting the role of the theme of guardians of the Most Holy. Perhaps this is where some of the confusion arises.

On the basis of the above, I then draw many lessons adding to these details, and perhaps one is that Jesus is called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. You may disagree with some of my "additional details" that I have not disclosed, both concerning the Cherubim and Seraphim and also the Living Creatures, but I would be interested in your assessment of what I have already stated..

Kind regards
Trevor

I don't know. I read that angels are given to "guard" us, and that very holy areas were to be protected by cherubim. I do understand that there is a difference between protecting sacred places and protecting people. I suppose I just lack the kind of information that made this sound reasonable to the people who wrote this and read it? Thanks for your response.

 

[follower]

This triune nature of God is what we now understand as the Trinity.

The Jews/ Israelites who believe/believed in YHVH do not understand any 'triune nature' as that is not reality in Scripture nor in Yahshua.
The Truth is Perfectly Written IN Scripture, but mankind , sinful mankind, added to it what is often wrong.

 

[follower]

What do you believe He was before He became flesh?

When Jesus Himself asked Simon bar Jona who do people say that I am,
was anyone right at all , from the group "people" , as written.
Or was only Simon bar Jona right ?

 

[JLB]

I believe the Spirit of God was there along with His angel.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17


Happy Fourth of July. Freedom. Liberty for all through Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

When Jesus Himself asked Simon bar Jona who do people say that I am,
was anyone right at all , from the group "people" , as written.
Or was only Simon bar Jona right ?

Simon was right and received His revelation from God.


The revelation of Jesus Christ is unfolding throughout the New Testament.


Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, Ephesians 1:15-18

 

[Free]

The Jews/ Israelites who believe/believed in YHVH do not understand any 'triune nature' as that is not reality in Scripture nor in Yahshua.

This isn't entirely true. There were pre-Christ, Jewish groups the believed there was more to God than just one person. The OT hints in several places to a plurality within God, that there is something more to God than first meets the eye, while always maintaining that there is only one true God. The NT brings this out much stronger and much clearer, showing that Jesus is truly God and truly man, yet he is not the Father nor simply the Father in the flesh.

Besides, the Jews couldn't even understand that the Messiah was coming to die for the sins of the world, to reconcile all to God who would believe. If they couldn't understand that, why should we expect them to understand the very nature of God?

The Truth is Perfectly Written IN Scripture, but mankind , sinful mankind, added to it what is often wrong.

Sinful man also removes from what God has said. We must never make the Bible say more than it does, but we must also never make it say less.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Greetings Hishandmaiden,

I suggest that the meaning of the word Elohim is wide-ranging, and that it represents the One God, Yahweh, God the Father who delights to share his plan, purpose and work with others, including Angels, Judges and especially our Lord Jesus Christ, the human Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor, are you suggesting that God is one Person. If so, what, then, do you do with the Gospel of John's first verses, indeed with the whole gospel, when John talks about, Jesus, his Father, and the Holy Spirit as Persons in unity? John 1:1-3 is an example:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Bruce Letter,

@Trevor, are you suggesting that God is one Person. If so, what, then, do you do with the Gospel of John's first verses, indeed with the whole gospel, when John talks about, Jesus, his Father, and the Holy Spirit as Persons in unity? John 1:1-3 is an example:

I have given a fairly comprehensive answer to many of the supposed Trinitarian verses in the various repetitious threads. I understand that The Word in John 1:1 is a personification of God's wisdom, purpose, character similar to the Wise Woman Wisdom in Proverbs 8. It is not until we reach John 1:14 that we encounter Jesus and there is a transfer or embodiment of God's character in Jesus because of his unique birth and the Divine education and guidance up until his ministry, and John beholding Jesus during this ministry declares that he beheld the moral glory of Jesus, and summarises this as being full of grace and truth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Beetow]

.
The passage below is deliberately misquoted, watch for the revision.

● Matt 28:18-20 . .Then Jesus came to them and said: All authority in heaven and
on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the names of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am
with you always, to the very end of the age.

"names" is plural in the revision whereas in the actual text it's singular; which tells
me the name we should be looking for is a corporate identity rather than individual
identities for each person listed in the baptism ritual.

The conventional identity relative to the unification of the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit is trinity. That's a man-made tag but does a pretty good job of telling
observers that Christianity's supreme being wears more than one hat; so to speak.
_

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

However, we are not introduced to the Trinity from the 1st moment of the Bible. We are introduced to one God, the Creator who is indeed a plurality. "Let us make..." The indication is that God the Creator makes things via a plurality, so that while He remains aloof from His creation He also manifests Himself within creation, which is how we then see Him as a Trinity at a minimum.

We understand that He was a Trinity at a minimum from eternity in the sense of conceptualizing that as a fact. But we can only really experience it and understand it as such in time. We can only conceptualize about the infinite God in eternity. But we can only understand His plurality in a practical sense in our own finite realm in time.

Jesus taught us to pray, "Our Father who art in heaven." He did not teach his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Son, and Spirit who art in heaven." We pray to one God in heaven whose plurality is manifested in the Trinity and who originated in heaven as a Trinity at a minimum.

The fact we pray to one God as to one Person does not mean that He is not a Plurality of Persons. It is simply how we are to address Him as one God.

I know that this can get confusing. I've run into this with a number of people who indicate that "One Person cannot at the same time be Three Persons." And yet, we are to address God as Father, which is one Person. And in so doing we are addressing God, who is all three Persons.

The only way I've ever been able to explain this is to accept these realities as all true, and explainable in the sense that God is infinite and conveys the sense of His plurality of Persons in time. We understand they exist conceptually in eternity, but we can only understand them as realities within our realm in time.

In eternity we see God's status as outside of creation. And yet we can also conceive of His Word as being able to manifest Himself within creation in time.

And it is within creation in time that His Word appeared to us as a man. And it is also through His Word that we can perceive the movement of the Holy Spirit in various geographical locations, even though in concept we know that the Spirit of God is everywhere.

I'm sorry if this offends anybody. I've tried for years to be able to put these things in words without contradiction.

RandyK, my approach has always been to assume what the Bible assumes. Its totality assumes the God is Triune, though I can't fully understand that mystery. Thus, I believe in the Trinity. The Bible also assumes that creation, salvation, and believers' sanctification all come from the Father, through Jesus, by the Spirit as our one true God. Therefore, I believe that he does it all. I don't have to understand all of that truth to believe it, since the inspired Bible says it.

 

[Randy]

RandyK, my approach has always been to assume what the Bible assumes. Its totality assumes the God is Triune, though I can't fully understand that mystery. Thus, I believe in the Trinity. The Bible also assumes that creation, salvation, and believers' sanctification all come from the Father, through Jesus, by the Spirit as our one true God. Therefore, I believe that he does it all. I don't have to understand all of that truth to believe it, since the inspired Bible says it.

From God our Father, through Jesus our Lord by the Fathers Spirit.
The Fathers Son
The Fathers Spirit

The eternal life in the Son is the Fathers Spirit which is Deity.
The eternal life in us is the Fathers Spirit sent in Jesus's name. Hence the Spirit of Christ.
The Spirit is just that as contrasted to the mind of the Father and the mind of the Son.
There is no 3rd mind and there is only one Spirit.
Mary conceived by the Fathers Spirit which is why Jesus never refers to the Spirit as His God or Father.

He's speaking of life without end not life in the flesh. Many who don't belong to Jesus live in the flesh.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

No 3rd mind Just 2 and one Spirit. The Spirit acts on the point of will of the mind of the Father or the mind of the Son as the Son sat down with His Father on His Fathers throne and they are one. Hence the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord and the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit does not speak on His own but only what He hears from the mind of the Spirit. The Spirit intercedes for us in accordance to the will of the mind of God not on His own.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.
Knowing the Father the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent
To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb

The Spirit of truth testifies
Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son.

 

[Free]

From God our Father, through Jesus our Lord by the Fathers Spirit.
The Fathers Son
The Fathers Spirit

The eternal life in the Son is the Fathers Spirit which is Deity.
The eternal life in us is the Fathers Spirit sent in Jesus's name. Hence the Spirit of Christ.
The Spirit is just that as contrasted to the mind of the Father and the mind of the Son.
There is no 3rd mind and there is only one Spirit.
Mary conceived by the Fathers Spirit which is why Jesus never refers to the Spirit as His God or Father.

He's speaking of life without end not life in the flesh. Many who don't belong to Jesus live in the flesh.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

No 3rd mind Just 2 and one Spirit. The Spirit acts on the point of will of the mind of the Father or the mind of the Son as the Son sat down with His Father on His Fathers throne and they are one. Hence the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord and the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit does not speak on His own but only what He hears from the mind of the Spirit. The Spirit intercedes for us in accordance to the will of the mind of God not on His own.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.
Knowing the Father the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent
To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb

The Spirit of truth testifies
Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son.

Not so.

Luk 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” (ESV)

What is that promise that Jesus is sending?

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)
…
Joh 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." (ESV)

Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

The "Helper" is clearly the Holy Spirit, who is “another Helper.” That implies both that Jesus is the first “Helper” and that the Holy Spirit is one who is like him but distinct from him, which implies personhood. That is the plain reading of the text. For example, if I'm at someone's house and have a piece of cake for dessert, which I eat, and then am asked if I want another piece, I fully expect to get a different piece of the same cake, unless some further qualification is made.

And what is a "Helper"? When we look at the Greek, it is the word parakletos, which means "helper, counselor, comforter, advocate;" all of which either are or can be actions of persons. The meaning of advocate is important since persons advocate on behalf of other persons; "its" cannot advocate for anyone or anything.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/parakletos.html

Parakletos is used only five times in the NT. In addition to the above four instances in John, the fifth is also by John here, for "advocate":

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

Jesus is said, by John, to be an advocate. It is not insignificant, then, that John records Jesus saying that he will send "another parakletos." Jesus was the first parakletos, and remains so, but in John’s gospel he was returning to the Father and the disciples still needed much help and guidance. It all points to the Spirit being a person and also being truly God, in the same way Jesus is truly God.

An advocate can only be a person. We also see in these passages that the actions of this other Helper include teaching, bringing things to remembrance, bearing witness, convicting of sin, guiding into all truth, hearing, and speaking and declaring. These are actions of personal agency, not an "it." Jesus also says it is for their advantage that he leaves and sends this Advocate. How is it, then, that having an "it" would be to their advantage? Could a chair, rock, or impersonal power do any of these things or be of an advantage when Jesus left?

Everything about the Holy Spirit in these passages, not to many numerous others, strongly imply that the Holy Spirit is a divine person who is distinct from the Father and the Son.

 

[Free]

(Cont'd from above.)

We see in Matt. 28:19 that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all distinct. We see in Acts 16 that the Holy Spirit is also called the "Spirit of Jesus":

Act 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. (ESV)

And in Romans 8, the "Spirit of Christ" is equated with the "Spirit of God":

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (ESV)

Compare that with what Paul says in Galatians 4:

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (ESV)

Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, (ESV)

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” (ESV)

And in 1 Peter we see that the OT prophets prophesied by the "Spirit of Christ":

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (ESV)

That means that your claim--"The eternal life in us is the Fathers Spirit sent in Jesus's name. Hence the Spirit of Christ."--simply cannot be true.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

Interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, and the Spirit of your Father, but also the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Acts 16:6-7; Rom 8:9; Gal 4:6; Phil 1:19; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons. It's strongly implied that the Holy Spirit is a person, and so it can only be that he is also truly God, the same as the Father and as the Son.

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7
Listens: John 16:13
Speaks: John 16:13-15; Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7; Rom 8:26-27; 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: John 16:13; Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31-32
Convicts: John 16:8-11

These are all actions of personal agency. And on it goes.

Given the above, I would say that since we know the Father and the Son are distinct persons yet both truly God, it necessarily follows that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person that is also truly God. And since know there is only God, the Trinity is the best explanation.

 

[RandyK]

RandyK, my approach has always been to assume what the Bible assumes. Its totality assumes the God is Triune, though I can't fully understand that mystery. Thus, I believe in the Trinity. The Bible also assumes that creation, salvation, and believers' sanctification all come from the Father, through Jesus, by the Spirit as our one true God. Therefore, I believe that he does it all. I don't have to understand all of that truth to believe it, since the inspired Bible says it.

I think that's about as agreeable and correct as it can get. Just don't confuse me (RandyK) with "Randy." We are 2 different people! ;)