Paul is talking about their work, not his work. When he says each man, he means each man, and when he says each man's work, he means each man's work.
Obviously the truth Paul is imparting is in Paul. Paul doesn't have to be taught.
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What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
Paul is talking about their work, not his work. When he says each man, he means each man, and when he says each man's work, he means each man's work.
Obviously the truth Paul is imparting is in Paul. Paul doesn't have to be taught.
My understanding doesn't come from a preconceived doctrine. It comes from hearing the word of God. Exultation is a feeling of triumphant elation or jubilation. Like hope and joy; Paul is saying they are his reason to boast or feel triumphant in the presence of the Lord. Don't get hung up on the word 'crown'. He is just saying they are his best work. They are his crown of boasting.
Now you have added reward and fiery judgment to 1 Thess. 2:19 to compare it to 1 Cor. 3:13-14 leaving out 1 Cor. 3:10-13 and 1 Cor. 3:15, confusing Paul's work with the work each man is supposed to do. The work isn't preaching or teaching. No. Each man's work is to seek and understand the word of God. That's what the proverbs say
Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
And it's what Jesus said. Mt. 7:7-8
A man's work is to seek Him, and what he understands is his understanding. It depends on how he hears. It's what he believes. If he understands the word, and the word takes root, then he will bear good fruit.
The fire is going to test our knowledge and our understanding - everything we believe, true or false; everything we have built on the foundation of Christ. Everything will be revealed, even our innermost thoughts. "For the Spirit searches everything." 1 Cor. 2:10
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Why do you suppose Paul is telling the church they are his reward? (the implication being, you might be going to hell, but it's my loss if you do.) And if he loses any to hell, it will be his loss (poor Paul), though he will still be saved. There's a comforting thought while they are in hell. Paul will still be saved.
No. The work isn't the church or the man. It's the work each man builds on the foundation. The teacher's work is to instruct the students what they should do. So there's the teacher's work and the student's work. It's the student's work to build on the foundation and Paul (the teacher) points to the proverbs to show them how to build.
Jethro Bodine
Member
He's defending the sincerity of himself and his ministry. Which is in contrast to the false apostles at work among them. They're only in for the temporal. While Paul is in it for the eternal.
...which conveniently excludes Apollos and Peter and their labor among them. They are neither Paul, nor foundation planters, nor the Corinthians themselves. Your interpretation of the passage does not fit all elements of the passage. That's why I resist it. But if you read it for what it actually says you'll see that the laborer is Paul, Apollos, and Peter (1 Corinthians 1:12 NASB), and whoever else laborers in the building and field of God which is the Corinthians themselves, and the work completed by the laborer is, obviously, that field and building, just as it is in the case of actual laborers laboring in a field or building.
Sorry if you don't see the absurdity of it all Jethro.
Paul is telling the Corinthian church they are his reward. If they don't survive, they are his loss. For a servant of God to say that is ridiculous. Paul is hoping his church doesn't get burned for purely selfish reasons - he gets a bigger reward. People get tossed into hell, but Paul says he is still saved. Good for Paul! If Paul loses people, it's Paul's loss. Poor Paul!
How egocentric can it get?
What are the elements of the passage? 1 Cor. 1:12 is talking to the brethren. I agree Paul, Apollos and Peter laboured to bring them the gospel. But as I said, Paul is addressing the brethren, and keep it in mind that Jesus Christ and him crucified is only the foundation of the gospel. The sayings and the commandments of our Lord are built on the foundation. What the disciples saw and what they heard, it's all gospel truth.
What's the problem in the first place? The teacher, in this case Paul, is imparting the wisdom of God. The brethren receive the wisdom. Each man hears and each man builds his house so maybe one day he can teach others. That's my understanding.
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Jethro Bodine
Member
Well, if you don't believe that, will you believe it in a passage that shows how 'selfish' Paul is in hoping they are saved so his efforts won't be in vain?
"...prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:15-16 NASB)
Look at that; Paul telling the Philippians to prove they are children of God so he can glory in that on the day of Christ and so he will have not run his race in vain. And you're afraid that my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 can't be right because that makes Paul egocentric?
So you see Paul worried about running in vain? Or is it his wish for the Philippians that they hold fast the word of life?
Philippians 2:16
holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. RSV
I agree Paul is not selfish, so I see it is not to satisfy his pride that he tells them to hold fast the word of life, but rather he will be proud and he will have reason to glory in the day of Christ because he did not run in vain.
It's the 'he shall suffer a loss' part - Paul would not be so cavalier so as to say people are burned and people are his loss.
Is Paul talking to himself when he says each man? Is he teaching Apollos and Peter? You've got Paul instructing himself and Apollos and Peter how they should build. But I see Paul teaching the brethren how they should build. To imitate Paul and Peter and Apollos. Of course Paul and Apollos and Peter are building the church, but each member of the church is important, each man is a living stone, each man a living temple of God if the Spirit of God is in the man.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Of course he is. All you have to do is read it and you can see he's talking about his and other people's ministry among them.
No. But it is ABOUT them. And he's sharing it for the benefit of the Corinthians so they can stop dividing themselves under various ministers that have been among them and instead come as one under Christ alone. There are false apostles among them that are winning them over by their false doctrines and charisma (2 Corinthians 11:3,4,13 NASB) and destroying the building of God. But if they would stop elevating the laborers among them and be under Christ only they could discern who has eternal interests at heart, and who does not.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:9-17
Paul is the one who is teaching the of importance building with Christ; the wisdom of God, being typified by gold, silver, and precious things.
- Solomon being the type of Him who builds the temple, being filled with the wisdom of God.
Paul being filled with the Spirit of God with all wisdom, being directed by Christ Himself and by Jesus Christ speaking through Paul, is the pattern by which God's fellow worker is to build.
He is the pattern according to which we are to build and be built.
The words of Christ; The doctrine of Christ. The life and Spirit of Christ.
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16
I can say with all soberness, that what passes for teaching and disciple making in today's Churches will not measure up to the standard of Christ.
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:17
JLB
chessman
Member
What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?
1. Clement of Alexandria says it is “the addition of heresies”.
The Stromata, or Miscellanies - Book V -
CHAPTER IV -- DIVINE THINGS WRAPPED UP IN FIGURES BOTH IN THE SACRED AND IN HEATHEN WRITERS.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-stromata-book5.html
Thus, Clement of Alexandria’s answer to the OP’s question is the heresies of people (not the people themselves).
2. Origen says it is “our sins”:
Origen agrees with Clement that the wood, hay and stubble are NOT people:
DE PRINCIPIIS - BOOK II - CHAP. X.--ON THE RESURRECTION, AND THE JUDGMENT, THE FIRE OF HELL, AND PUNISHMENTS.
DE PRINCIPIIS - BOOK III - CHAP. I.--ON THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL
Origen recognizes that in 1 Cor 3, Paul is talking about perfecting ourselves (not burning up previously saved people).
Against Celsus - Book IV -
3. Irenaeus
Book V - Chapter VI - God Will Bestow Salvation Upon the Whole Nature of Man, Consisting of Body and Soul in Close Union, Since the Word Took It Upon Him, and Adorned with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, of Whom Our Bodies Are, and are Termed, the Temples.
Irenaeus recognizes that Paul is talking about burning/destroying that which is within us (sin) not burning up someone else in the 1 Cor 3 passage.
1. Clement of Alexandria says it is “the addition of heresies”.
The Stromata, or Miscellanies - Book V -
CHAPTER IV -- DIVINE THINGS WRAPPED UP IN FIGURES BOTH IN THE SACRED AND IN HEATHEN WRITERS.
"According to the grace," it is said, "given to me as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation. And another buildeth on it gold and silver, precious stones."
…
But "the stubble, and the wood, and the hay," are the additions of heresies.
…
But "the stubble, and the wood, and the hay," are the additions of heresies.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-stromata-book5.html
Thus, Clement of Alexandria’s answer to the OP’s question is the heresies of people (not the people themselves).
2. Origen says it is “our sins”:
Origen agrees with Clement that the wood, hay and stubble are NOT people:
DE PRINCIPIIS - BOOK II - CHAP. X.--ON THE RESURRECTION, AND THE JUDGMENT, THE FIRE OF HELL, AND PUNISHMENTS.
4. … Of this fire the fuel and food are our sins, which are called by the Apostle Paul wood, and hay, and stubble.''
DE PRINCIPIIS - BOOK III - CHAP. I.--ON THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL
As, therefore, when a field has brought good and rich crops to perfect maturity, no one would piously and logically assert that the husbandman had made those fruits, but would acknowledge that they had been produced by God; so also is our own perfection brought about, not indeed by our remaining inactive and idle, (but by some activity on our part): and yet the consummation of it will not be ascribed to us, but to God, who is the first and chief cause of the work.
Origen recognizes that in 1 Cor 3, Paul is talking about perfecting ourselves (not burning up previously saved people).
Against Celsus - Book IV -
And we assert that they are wickedness, and the works which result from it, and which, being figuratively called "wood, hay, stubble,"
3. Irenaeus
Book V - Chapter VI - God Will Bestow Salvation Upon the Whole Nature of Man, Consisting of Body and Soul in Close Union, Since the Word Took It Upon Him, and Adorned with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, of Whom Our Bodies Are, and are Termed, the Temples.
2. Whence also he says, that this handiwork is "the temple of God," thus declaring: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man, therefore, will defile the temple of God, him will God destroy: for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are." Here he manifestly declares the body to be the temple in which the Spirit dwells. As also the Lord speaks in reference to Himself, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. He spake this, however," it is said, "of the temple of His body." And not only does he (the apostle) acknowledge our bodies to be a temple, but even the temple of Christ, saying thus to the Corinthians, "Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? " He speaks these things, not in reference to some other spiritual man;
Irenaeus recognizes that Paul is talking about burning/destroying that which is within us (sin) not burning up someone else in the 1 Cor 3 passage.
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.1 Corinthians 3:17
People not "things" are destroyed because the cause defilement.
JLB
chessman
Member
Matthew 26:61 (LEB) and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it within three days.’”
Was Jesus de-saved? No!
1 Corinthians 3:15 (LEB) If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.
Was Paul talking about de-salvation? No!
So what do you think will happen when the fire destroys those who defile the temple.
Are you teaching that being destroyed by God with fire "means" something else ?
No. It is not about them. In fact, when you say it is about them, you are starting the same quarrel that's been going on ever since Paul wrote his letter. You are acting like an ordinary man. Who were they? What was the quarrel about? Who's teaching is correct? Is it Paul. Is it Apollos? Is it Calvin? Is it Martin Luther? Is it the Pope?
Paul cleared it up. Paul wasn’t crucified for us. No one is baptized in the name of Paul. Paul’s statement to the church is, "Let each man take care how he builds", and that’s the point. Each man (not Paul, not Apollos, not Peter), is responsible for his own building. That’s the point - build your spiritual house with the gifts you have received. Tell it to the church.
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Yes,it is obvious because the language leaves no room for dispute.
God will destroy those who defile His Temple.
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:17
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Paul says it is very much about them:
"6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes" (1 Corinthians 4:6 NASB)
But he also says it's not about them in the way that you suppose I'm saying it's about them:
"5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth." (1 Corinthians 3:5-7 NASB)
See, you still haven't explained how it is that your doctrine can suddenly without warning or precedent change the context of the passage from that of the ministers of the gospel among them being the laborer in the building of God, whose labor may or may not be rewarded, to that of the individual person being ministered to being the laborer (in his own life) whose labor in his own spiritual life may or may not be rewarded.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, these represent the basic traditional views of the passage.
(By the way, I'm kind of surprised you'd reference non-OSAS theologians to give credence to an argument. Just making an interesting point.)
chessman
Member
Irenaeus was an OSAS Early Church Father having been taught by Polycarp who was taught theology by John the Apostle.