What makes some people stop being a Christian?

[Ashua]

I'm curious why you believe the Tanahk and Brit ha Kodesha are corrupted. We have a complete scroll of Isaiah from the dead sea collection. Do you know, archaeologists have found the bracelets of koheniym (priests after the order of Aaron) in which entire chapters of Numbers have been found which date to the time of Jeremiah and predate even the great Isaiah scroll by some 400 years if I'm not mistaken? They match what we have today to a T.

I'm asking very sincerely. What do you base your conclusion on?

 

[Tina]

.

God gave the world the free gift of Jesus - they knew that - who can turn their backs on the greatest love?

Can't get my head round those who believed for years - like three to fifty years or more suddenly or gradually stop believing? It just doesn't make any sense? Does it?

Lamplady, you are obviously someone who has experienced very little overwhelming or no adversities in your life. Or perhaps you have not had deep conversations with people going through sufferings. Based on my interactions with various people, Christians sometimes get disillusioned and discouraged when they had been praying for a long time with nothing happening. On the other extreme, there are also non-believers or lukewarm or backsliden ones who are desperately drawn to God during times of overwhelming struggles. I have seen many in this forum and elsewhere. I also notice that believers falling away from faith is a whole lot more rampant in the West than in Asia where I live. Here it's almost impossible to find former Christians. Yes there are some who stop gong to church due to work or other reasons. But they don't give up their faith. Sooner or later, they are back in church. I am pretty sure that one of the reasons why we are able to hold on to our faith despite adversities is the strong prayer and intercession groups we have in our churches as well as Cell groups (home churches) we have on a weekly basis. There is accountability. If one stops coming to church and we know about it, we never cease praying for the person. Prayers make all the difference and God never ceases to amaze with what He can do for such people. It's no wonder that our churches are exploding with breakthroughs and revivals. This, I believe, is seriously lacking in the States and Europe.

 

[Ashua]

I think your asking me?

I dont feel the OT is corrupted in the same manner as the NT - the two are two different texts with seperate histories - all my beliefs regarding the corruption of the OT came after I became Muslim, they are simple matters of belief for me - I beleive the Ot was corrupted by men with agendas in some parts, and some was lost - but much of the OT lines up with Islam, so I actually have little problem with the OT.

Fair enough on the basis of faith, but unlike matters of interpretation as it is with science--faith issues... How would it affect you if someone were to present the very scrolls and artifacts mentioned in front of you and even if you knew how to read ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek...

I'll concede on minor corruptions such as the Masoretic text twisting certain parts, and the fact that the Septuagint isn't the original language, but the comparison of what we have today and the artifacts in and of themselves are pretty convincing... The same goes for the New Covenant writings.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

1. You're half-right. Just like how you are half wrong. There are many reasons for apostasy, and one rather common reason is the one I stated.

Just admit you had an opinion and stop playing games for a second.

2. No I have not. Have you? You can let your guard down.

Why are you telling me, what is in a book you haven't read? This is why my guard is up in the first place, you shouldn't sources something you haven't confirmed for yourself. You might have missed something. Also, no I haven't but I plan on reading it in the near future.

That reference to Darwin's personal deviation doesn't do anything to boost any creationist argument to my knowledge. It is a simple fact.

You just admitted to have not read the source material, so no, its not fact since you haven't even bothered to check if it even was a fact, and not quote mined for the purpose of the third party source you got it from.

The story of how a (well known) atheist eased out of his former conviction and an evidence that he did not do so because he wanted to go about sinning without consequence. It actually helps your case. (Although I have heard stories of deathbed repentances.. not that I'm saying. just saying.)

I don't care if it helps my argument or not, I'm not going to accept a questionable source. When I read the letters from the Beagle, then I might use that as a source.

If you are suggesting that people do not at all defect to apostasy because they don't want to worry about facing a righteous judge, then you are being dishonest.

No, I'm saying unless you have hard evidence saying it is a main reason, then I won't accept your statement as fact.

I'm sure you could find such testimonies very easily if you tried. In fact, those nice little quotes you tempted me to post kind of confirm it, don't they? You could also flip the coin and ask apostates of atheism. Many of them explain that they didn't like the idea of being accountable.

More spin and trying to cloud the fact that what you said was opinion. You are now trying to shift the burden on me. What quotes exactly did I "tempt" you to post anyway?

You could go in a big circle and say the same thing you said when you thought I was distorting Darwin's experience even though I was only referencing it to concede to your point, but I'm certainly not the one you are kidding.

I forgot whenever anyone points out a mistake here, the poster will just try and build a distraction.

You're done, you had an opinion you tried to pull off as fact, and when you where caught you threw a smoke bomb and tried to push it off on me.

Can you be an adult for a minute and save it please.

 

[Ashua]

Just admit you had an opinion and stop playing games for a second.

Why are you telling me, what is in a book you haven't read? This is why my guard is up in the first place, you shouldn't sources something you haven't confirmed for yourself. You might have missed something. Also, no I haven't but I plan on reading it in the near future.

You just admitted to have not read the source material, so no, its not fact since you haven't even bothered to check if it even was a fact, and not quote mined for the purpose of the third party source you got it from.

I don't care if it helps my argument or not, I'm not going to accept a questionable source. When I read the letters from the Beagle, then I might use that as a source.

No, I'm saying unless you have hard evidence saying it is a main reason, then I won't accept your statement as fact.

have you read it to say it isnt fact? stop being a pedant. Nothing to do with me has any bearing on the truth of the matter. I don't need to ever touch Z in the dictionary if I want to say I know every word that begins with S.

Have you ever read the Bible in it's entirety? If not nothing you say on God has any weight. Fun logic!

You're done, you had an opinion you tried to pull off as fact, and when you where caught you threw a smoke bomb and tried to push it off on me.

Can you be an adult for a minute and save it please.

Yup, you sure caught me. You're far too mature for my trickery.

 

[Ashua]

Ive seen the texts and its true - they are preserved - like I said, this is a simple matter of faith I dont push much because its a matter of faith. When I talk about the OT I prefer to speak with the caretakers of the OT, jews, those conversations are often more fruitful for me. (although jews are less willing to speak to me if they know Im Muslim)

I tend to avoid conversations regarding the OT with christians because, no offense, they often add uneducated interpretations of OT scripture to fit their religious view.

Most Christians, sure. Not every. I personally spend more time in the OT actually. In fact -- the majority of the NT is quotation and reference work of the OT plus narrative of events. The writings of Paul are largely one big compliliation of exegesis. If you find the Christians are less capable of grasping the OT, which they accept as infallible, what advantage has the muslim in those matters?

 

[theLords]

No, I became non christian - but i firmly believed in God, the God of Abraham, and I trusted Him to guide me away from the men who corrupt His religion, to those who uphold it. But I can see why you thought I might have given up on God - I couldnt bring myself to go there, but I thought about it.

What do you call a Christian, who's core belief is that Jesus Christ is God who came in the flesh to bear our sins, who stops believing that Jesus Christ is God? The fact that you only considered God the Father, God, further shows you were never a Christian. You don't simply "lose" your belief in Christ's divinity like you lose your socks in the dryer. It's not something that can be lost. Jesus said that those who the Father has given Him, no one can snatch from His hands. It seems what you said of me in that other thread,

"When you were first told that Jesus was God, you submitted to this without question,"

is true of you. You were a child, right? 8 years old or something and you said you would go to church all on your lonesome? It wasn't until you got older and had difficulty with the concept of the trinity that you first began to doubt, or was it that when you tried to ask about it you were told "Be quiet and believe, don't ask questions" If I remember correctly it was a combination of the two. Then as you were older came a time of testing, did you truly believe? Look at what the Word of God says:

Mark 4

The Parable of the Sower

*1 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3 “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”
*9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
*10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,
***“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, 
***and ever hearing but never understanding; 
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[a]”
*13 Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14 The farmer sows the word. 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.”

That's what happened here. You got old enough to question and find answers on your own without having to rely on the church elders. You stated that you went to the God of Abraham with the Bible and the Quran laying side by side and asked Him which was the Truth. You then opened your Bible and (coincidentally!) opened it to a page that said that Jesus was the Son of God or God or something along those lines. Then you had a FEELING of disgust that came over you. A FEELING. That feeling of disgust confirmed to you that Islam was the true path. You then opened the Quran read a passage that had no effect over you and cried because you were happy God "answered your prayer" (something like that right?) So you ask the God of Abraham what is the path to know Him, and then you randomly open the Bible and see that Jesus is God. Then a FEELING of disgust comes over you, and you choose Islam. Do you see what I see?

You keep saying that your feelings made you a Christian, and that your feelings led you to Islam. The Bible has many things to say about this!

My Step father was a pastor - not my father, and he did not come into my life until I was around 15 - by then I actually attended a different church from him, so while my parents and siblings went to one church I attended a different one which I had been attending long before the rest of my family dedicated their lives to christ. Honestly, in the big picture, my step father didnt do much to help me in my search for the truth, I grew to dislike him because he was abusive - I did not associate his actions with christianity though, I did however listen to his sermons and saw what hypocrit he was - he is no longer a pastor, but 10 years later, he is better man now then he was when he was a pastor.

Well, now you're just saying two different things. First you said you spent alot of time in the church because of your pastor dad and now you're saying that he had no influence over you. Which one is it?

The fact of the matter is, when you shared your testimony, at no point did you describe the most crucial element of Christianity. The intimate relationship you shared with Christ. You are able to describe your feelings of love, and the fact that you prayed, and read the Bible, but you had no relationship with Jesus.

I can see how you can see your own feelings and believes before you came back to the church were empty - I can se how you can say, personaly, that you were not christian then, but now you are - what i cant see is how you can judge my feelings and beliefs when I was christian. I know your going to say that if I was christian then, then I would be christian now - thats a matter of belief for yourself, there is no way to prove it or disprove it - what you cant do is read my heart and know what i felt and my motivations and my beliefs - I dont ever bring this up because its of no consequence in reality - I am not christian now, and in my eyes, when I was christian, I was mislead - so in reality it makes no differenece.

Were my feelings empty when they were exactly the same as yours? Were they empty when my heart, feelings, motivations, and intentions were just like what you described? I never said my feelings were empty. I said that they were EXACTLY as you describe your feelings. Everything you said of yourself was true of me.

There is ABSOLUTE truth, this is not my personal belief, go and ask those who are being tortured in the name of Christ if Jesus is subjective truth. They would have alot to say to you.

So when you were a Christian you were mislead? You simply keep stating that you were never a Christian to begin with! If you had known the Lord you would be standing on the side of Truth! Nothing can snatch us from the hands of Christ! Absolutely nothing.

You arent me - we have simalr stories, but you arent me - we both left the church but my reasons wearnt because I thought evolution was correct, or I thought something in the bible didnt make sense - I was lead away from christianity by gaining an understanding of historical christianity, and how it has morphed into its modern form among other docterinal issues - I can credit christianity with nudging me towards Islam though - when I saw christian write refuttals of islamic beliefs I saw how empty and weak thei arguments were and I saw christians stating flat fabrications against Islam - I did not see this happen amongst Muslims refuting christians - so that nudged me a little in the Islamic way. How many Muslims who have apostated were practicing, knowledgable Muslms? I have met many ex Muslims - and many dont know basic elementary level Islamic education - I have yet to meet a Muslim with even moderate knowledge of Islam full out apostize.

You were lead away from Christianity because you were not rooted in Christ Jesus, and neither was I. I am now rooted in the Lord! Praise God! I can see!

Muslims fabricate things just as often as Christians do it; that's not a good excuse.

How many ex-Muslims are tortured, raped, and murdered because they came to Christ? They know what will happen to them if they leave Islam yet choose to do it anyway?

 

[Ashua]

Im not sure i would call it an advatage, but one thing the OT has going for it is that it calls for the worship of one God - as the jews see it anyways - many of the erronious interpretations made by christians lie in this area, one that is probably the most ignorant I have seen, is the "Royal We" being seen as a sign of Trinitarian god, but all this is way off topic, youc an PM me if youd like to talk more about this.

I am a oneness believer in Christ.

Elohiym is in fact a plural intensive found commonly in Hebrew. The word life: "Chayim" is also plural intensive, yet we only have one life. It is a literary device used to magnify something. "LORD of lords and "King of kings" Vanity of vanities. These phrases are of a similar nature to the plural intensive. Sh'ma Yisrael: YHVH Eloheinu YHVH Echad.

One thing mainstream Judaism doesn't have going for it is the rejection of their Messiah: who is plainly declared throughout the law, writings, and prophets.

Another thing is that they hold the Talmud and other writings of Jewish sages in higher authority to that of the Tanahk.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

have you read it to say it isnt fact?

i don't have to prove a negative. The burden is on you.

stop being a pedant. Nothing to do with me has any bearing on the truth of the matter. I don't need to ever touch Z in the dictionary if I want to say I know every word that begins with S.

You haven't read the book, so I won't believe you when you try and claim facts from a book you haven't read.

This way, I don't get bad information. If I take what you said, and go to another person and repeat what you said, and they have read the book, I'd get slammed for probably not understanding the context. Understand?

Have you ever read the Bible in it's entirety? If not nothing you say on God has any weight. Fun logic!

I have read the Bible. It is fun logic, because you can identify when people are being dishonest. Like you.

Yup, you sure caught me. You're far too mature for my trickery.

I'm used to dealing with tricksters like you. I went to an evangelical church for years that lied to me about science, culture, and other religions.

I've been tamed in the fire, so to speak.

 

[theLords]

Like I said - its really of no consequence if you or anyone else things I was christian before - you can scrutinize what ive shared with you guys about my life and come to whatever conclusion youd like - it really does not matter.

You came into this thread and singled me out for what I said in my post, but now it doesn't matter?

It's interesting to note that I did not reference you in any way, but was answering the question of a fellow sister. None of the other atheists were upset by it, but you??

Okay, dear, I can see what's going on here :D

 

[theLords]

I say it doesnt really matter because Im not christian now - I made mention of the concept that "a true christian never leaves the faith" because it has always bothered me a little how so many current christians simply state that all who leave were never christian to begin with, while they cant read anyones heart.

It did matter. It mattered so much that you singled me out in a bitter tirade

What you fail to realize that this statement "a true christian never leaves the faith" of yours is Biblical and is played out daily in the lives of believers who lay down their lives and pick up their crosses no matter how painful the circumstances and continue to walk in the faith. It has been proven Biblically and in the lives the old and current saints. It's Biblical.

In addition you seem to take parts of my life that I share with you, and try to paint a speculative picture.

No I did not. At one time to prove how much of a Christian you were you said you went to church alot because of your pastor dad. Now, you're saying the opposite, that he had no influence. Okay. You simply made two contradictory statements, hence the confusion.

and I dont know about you, but being called an atheist is insulting - and I dont want to engage in conversation with someone who insults me.

I didn't call you an atheist. I apologize for my grammatical faults.

None of the other atheists were upset by it, but you [personally were upset by it]??

Does that clarify things for you?

Or I can say, "but you as a Jesus atheists were upset by it"?

I know you take great pride in the fact that you don't subscribe to such "blasphemy."

 

[lamplady]

I think it has more to do with how the Bible is extremely exclusionary, demands us to basically give everything up, and maybe we'll get something awesome.

What could be more extreme though then an innocent man getting tortured and bleeding just because he loved us? ...


That and the Bible was written before Modern Science and sociology, so some things don't add up.


Mix that with some people who are willing to distort sociology, biology, psychology, and cosmology in order to straw man people to get them to fallow Jesus is also very common, not to mention that unless you distort or leave out massive chunks of information, Jesus shows up no where outside of the Bible in History, and there are reasons to even doubt the existence of the disciples.

Thank you Lance. I think you're mixing up worldly things with Godly things too much.

Trust in the Lord ... and lean not on your own understanding ...

The most important factor of someone leaving the faith is not having had a relationship with Christ.

Getting to know the Lord, having an intimate relationship with Him, knowing His likes and dislikes, enjoying His friendship, dining in fellowship (all that good stuff) is the #1 purpose of a Christian. Many Christians think it's about being "good" and "serving" the Lord, but the Bible shows otherwise...

Thank you - that is sooo true. People who have actually preached for years are the oddest ...

.
Lamplady, you are obviously someone who has experienced very little overwhelming or no adversities in your life. Or perhaps you have not had deep conversations with people going through sufferings. Based on my interactions with various people, Christians sometimes get disillusioned and discouraged when they had been praying for a long time with nothing happening. On the other extreme, there are also non-believers or lukewarm or backsliden ones who are desperately drawn to God during times of overwhelming struggles. I have seen many in this forum and elsewhere. I also notice that believers falling away from faith is a whole lot more rampant in the West than in Asia where I live. Here it's almost impossible to find former Christians. Yes there are some who stop gong to church due to work or other reasons. But they don't give up their faith. Sooner or later, they are back in church. I am pretty sure that one of the reasons why we are able to hold on to our faith despite adversities is the strong prayer and intercession groups we have in our churches as well as Cell groups (home churches) we have on a weekly basis. There is accountability. If one stops coming to church and we know about it, we never cease praying for the person. Prayers make all the difference and God never ceases to amaze with what He can do for such people. It's no wonder that our churches are exploding with breakthroughs and revivals. This, I believe, is seriously lacking in the States and Europe.

Thank you Tina.

Backsliders obviously didn't understand this:

Romans 8:35.38: 'What then can separate us from the love of Christ? Can ... hunger, poverty or danger of death?' ... 'For I am certain that nothing can separate us from his love'.

 

[Elijah674]

Simple! Psalms 19:13 presumption is VIOLATING the Holy Spirits [LEADING] of Rom. 8:14. In time these ones are become unreacheable. Gen. 6:3 + Rev. 17:1-5's fully MATURE in the [OPPOSITE DIRECTION.] James 1:15

--Elijah

 

[Chris]

Lots of things. Not everyone will get through life keeping their faith, or the parable of the sower would not be true.

if you spent your life going to church looking for god eventually disillusionment will follow unless you meet him.

Religion is for people who fear Hell, Spirituality is for people who have found Jesus...and connected. If you find that real living part of god you know its all real and you never return to doubt. If you never find it.....




( you guys are going to think I am a hippy or something writing things like this).

 

[casper]

How come none of my posts appear

 

[casper]

opps never mind it appears it is now.

 

[Adstar]

What?

God gave the world the free gift of Jesus - they knew that - who can turn their backs on the greatest love?

Can't get my head round those who believed for years - like three to fifty years or more suddenly or gradually stop believing? It just doesn't make any sense? Does it?

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> What’s a Christian?

Some people build up.. Or have inserted into their heads a construct of God and a Construct of Jesus. When they come to realise their construct of God or Construct of Jesus does not stand up to their experience of life they come to disbelieve in their construct of God/Jesus.

Some people from that point go and take the bible in their own hands and read and seek the truth about God and Jesus. Kind of like i want to be sure before i finally declare God dead and Jesus false.

Some from this point are filled with hate and resentment because they believed they have been deceived, They throw themselves into arming themselves with aggressive atheist arguments and spend years attacking true Christianity and false Christianity, to them it does not matter because they have no hope of seeing the difference. But after some years they walk away from their anti Christian atheist jihad empty and bitter.

There are some whose faith is based not in Jesus and what He says and what He did, but in the godhood of their parents. When they are kids they look upon their parents as God's on earth a lot of parents like this because it makes parenting much easier when you have that kind of authority. But there is a sting in the tail with this, a very toxic one. When Children grow up they come to see the fallibility of their parents. What happens is a feeling of being lied to and deceived comes over them and where they once looked upon their parents as infallible they go to the other extreme and look upon them with contempt. They cannot see their parents for what they are just normal fallible human beings until the rage dies and they grow older and look at their parents with more reasonable eyes. But during this process they end their faith in God because their foundation of faith in God was not God at all their foundation in faith was their belief in their parents.

I believe there are other people who during the process of growing in Jesus look upon themselves as Christians. But in truth they have not accepted a number of the core beliefs of Christianity and when they come to the point where the Holy Spirit reveals to them a cornerstone belief they resist it and their lukewarm, smorgasbord faith starts to crumble because the Holy Spirit will depart from convicting them when it is being repeatedly resisted. What little faith they had they lose and they fall away having never come to the fullness of the faith of the Gospel.

Then there are the spiritual baby Christians who have heard the simple message of the Gospel who believe and embrace it with Joy but later on when they start to become well read in scripture start to disagree with God and even hate God and accuse Him in their hearts for Judgements and actions of God in scripture. In the transition from the milk knowledge, the soft spiritual food of God and the deeper solid food of God they end up turning into haters of God and rejectors of the simple faith that saves. As the old saying goes converts are always the most hard core of any religion. This is usually the same in the opposite direction people who fall from belief always make the most dedicated persecutors of Christianity well motivated to stab and hack at the faithful for years as the hate and resentment simmers in their hearts.

There are Christians who do end up rejecting their Salvation through Disagreement with God that leads to disbelief. I am not a Once Saved Always Saved believer. In the end one has to accept with trust all the Word of God not just the sweet milk of the simple Gospel message, That is easy to accept for it is a sweet loving letter of forgiveness from God to all men. But the deeper message of Gods righteousness, the message of what sin is and the message of Gods wrath and judgement on those who reject His forgiveness takes real faith, real trust, in God. When it comes to the crunch some don't have it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[lamplady]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> What’s a Christian?

Some people build up.. Or have inserted into their heads a construct of God and a Construct of Jesus. When they come to realise their construct of God or Construct of Jesus does not stand up to their experience of life they come to disbelieve in their construct of God/Jesus.

Some people from that point go and take the bible in their own hands and read and seek the truth about God and Jesus. Kind of like i want to be sure before i finally declare God dead and Jesus false.

Some from this point are filled with hate and resentment because they believed they have been deceived, They throw themselves into arming themselves with aggressive atheist arguments and spend years attacking true Christianity and false Christianity, to them it does not matter because they have no hope of seeing the difference. But after some years they walk away from their anti Christian atheist jihad empty and bitter.

There are some whose faith is based not in Jesus and what He says and what He did, but in the godhood of their parents. When they are kids they look upon their parents as God's on earth a lot of parents like this because it makes parenting much easier when you have that kind of authority. But there is a sting in the tail with this, a very toxic one. When Children grow up they come to see the fallibility of their parents. What happens is a feeling of being lied to and deceived comes over them and where they once looked upon their parents as infallible they go to the other extreme and look upon them with contempt. They cannot see their parents for what they are just normal fallible human beings until the rage dies and they grow older and look at their parents with more reasonable eyes. But during this process they end their faith in God because their foundation of faith in God was not God at all their foundation in faith was their belief in their parents.

I believe there are other people who during the process of growing in Jesus look upon themselves as Christians. But in truth they have not accepted a number of the core beliefs of Christianity and when they come to the point where the Holy Spirit reveals to them a cornerstone belief they resist it and their lukewarm, smorgasbord faith starts to crumble because the Holy Spirit will depart from convicting them when it is being repeatedly resisted. What little faith they had they lose and they fall away having never come to the fullness of the faith of the Gospel.

Yeah I get that. Still it's interesting because this would probably apply to people who were perhaps newish or already weak in their faith. What I don't understand are those who really preached the gospel, (correctly), and then they fade - wonder what happens?

*er lol ... what's a 'smorgasbord'? It keeps coming up in movies and stuff and now it's starting to annoy me coz I don't know what it is!

Then there are the spiritual baby Christians who have heard the simple message of the Gospel who believe and embrace it with Joy but later on when they start to become well read in scripture start to disagree with God and even hate God and accuse Him in their hearts for Judgements and actions of God in scripture. In the transition from the milk knowledge, the soft spiritual food of God and the deeper solid food of God they end up turning into haters of God and rejectors of the simple faith that saves. As the old saying goes converts are always the most hard core of any religion. This is usually the same in the opposite direction people who fall from belief always make the most dedicated persecutors of Christianity well motivated to stab and hack at the faithful for years as the hate and resentment simmers in their hearts.

There are Christians who do end up rejecting their Salvation through Disagreement with God that leads to disbelief. I am not a Once Saved Always Saved believer. In the end one has to accept with trust all the Word of God not just the sweet milk of the simple Gospel message, That is easy to accept for it is a sweet loving letter of forgiveness from God to all men. But the deeper message of Gods righteousness, the message of what sin is and the message of Gods wrath and judgement on those who reject His forgiveness takes real faith, real trust, in God. When it comes to the crunch some don't have it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Wow! Really like your milk to solid analogy lol - all good and thanks! I think it's fascinating how one can be so at one with God then time later they're not ... but perhaps it's like what we all know, only God knows the true hearts of man ...

 

[Lance_Iguana]

What could be more extreme though then an innocent man getting tortured and bleeding just because he loved us? ...

That is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is people useing Jesus as their excuse to justify their own ideas, and how Jesus is the justification for all the questionable ethics in the Bible.

The entire core of Christianity is that we are bad, so Jesus had to die to help us.

Most of the people I have talked to ( see, I'm voicing this in opinion) who were never a Christian, or left Christianity is because the religion demands you accept that you are trash and the justification is as simple as because 2 people thousands of years ago made God mad.

Jesus actually is the least in the equation here. I've actually met more people who think Jesus ( in context to Christianity) Got a raw deal, because his father made up a rule system that didn't judge people on an individual level, but as a whole.
Jesus's death didn't actually dosen't solve anything outside of symbolic reasoning.

Thank you Lance. I think you're mixing up worldly things with Godly things too much.

Trust in the Lord ... and lean not on your own understanding ...

No, I'm not abandoning my understanding or critical thinking, because if I did, I'd be easy pickings for con artists and conspiracy theorists who either want to use my trust to gain support or money.

If we can't use our understanding on God, then how do we even know who understand the difference between something God did, or something that is natural?

 

[Chris]

That is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is people useing Jesus as their excuse to justify their own ideas, and how Jesus is the justification for all the questionable ethics in the Bible.

The entire core of Christianity is that we are bad, so Jesus had to die to help us.

Most of the people I have talked to ( see, I'm voicing this in opinion) who were never a Christian, or left Christianity is because the religion demands you accept that you are trash and the justification is as simple as because 2 people thousands of years ago made God mad.

Jesus actually is the least in the equation here. I've actually met more people who think Jesus ( in context to Christianity) Got a raw deal, because his father made up a rule system that didn't judge people on an individual level, but as a whole.
Jesus's death didn't actually dosen't solve anything outside of symbolic reasoning.


No, I'm not abandoning my understanding or critical thinking, because if I did, I'd be easy pickings for con artists and conspiracy theorists who either want to use my trust to gain support or money.

If we can't use our understanding on God, then how do we even know who understand the difference between something God did, or something that is natural?

I think when you analyse a topic like this you cant just cut and paste scripture in as an answer all the time, I think you are doing the right thing trying to think sensibly about the realities of how a person perceives our faith. If you blindly believe everything you are told by people you may end up in trouble. One thing told to me by many is the difficulty of accepting guilt of sin like you said and another is the unnecessary over burden of guilt laid on by those who get of on doing it to people, those who like to fill in the spaces with their own extra laws for their congregation to struggle to conform to.