What makes you a Christian

[Cornelius]

If you cannot see the conditions in the verses that I posted , then you and I cannot have this discussion.

C

 

[JoJo]

Fair enough. But there is no need to speak to me as if I were an unruly child in a classroom. "Tell me when you want to discuss things seriously again" is rather patronizing as I was truly trying to ask a serious question. Seeing as you don't have a direct answer for my direct question, I will leave the matter alone. God bless you.

 

[JoJo]

Cornelius, it grieves me to argue with one of my brothers. Please forgive me if I have seemed closed-minded. I appreciate your wisdom and experience, although we do not agree on everything.

 

[Cornelius]

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, in which case forgive my being abrupt with you,
I have been on forums for years and sometimes we misread an answer.

So you have to look at my answer with the conditional scriptures and tell me if you can see the word word "cannot" in them. Those are conditional.

If you want , I can give you more scriptures like that.

C

 

[JoJo]

Providing additional verses isn't necessary. Because what I originally wanted to know is why Jesus said, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Why do you think He said that? What point was He trying to make?

 

[Nick]

Whoever believes and has faith in Christ's actions to die and rise up from the dead to save us from the punishment for our sins is saved. That is all.

Of course some might argue that faith without works is nothing. I believe this, and it is biblically supported. But some take this out of context, and think that to be saved you need faith and works. This is not true. To be saved you need faith, and faith alone.
What I believe the statement of "faith without works is nothing" means is that faith without works is 'dead' faith. Works should be a response to your faith. Christ should be in your life. People should look at you and think "That person is Christian". But you do not need this to be saved.

 

[Cornelius]

Providing additional verses isn't necessary. Because what I originally wanted to know is why Jesus said, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Why do you think He said that? What point was He trying to make?

If you remember, we discussed this in an earlier post, where I explained the fact that when you read about Jesus, you are also reading about the Word. So believing the Word is believing in Jesus. People think that if they imagine Him and say: "Oh I believe there was a historical figure called Jesus" that they now believe in Him. The Bible is not that shallow. It ALSO means , that we have to believe the Word.

In other words, if you believe in Jesus as a historical figure, and you do not take up your cross and die to self, the Word (Jesus) says: You cannot be my disciple. (No matter what you believe, you have to still join your believe to the action of death to self) Same with all the other scriptures I have given you.

Say you are believing in Jesus, and you refuse to forgive people.Then it really does not matter that believe, does it, because Jesus himself tells you that the Father will not forgive you. We cannot enter the Kingdom unforgiven.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

There is not one unforgiven person in heaven

 

[JoJo]

Whoever believes and has faith in Christ's actions to die and rise up from the dead to save us from the punishment for our sins is saved. That is all.

Of course some might argue that faith without works is nothing. I believe this, and it is biblically supported. But some take this out of context, and think that to be saved you need faith and works. This is not true. To be saved you need faith, and faith alone.
What I believe the statement of "faith without works is nothing" means is that faith without works is 'dead' faith. Works should be a response to your faith. Christ should be in your life. People should look at you and think "That person is Christian". But you do not need this to be saved.

 

[JoJo]

Providing additional verses isn't necessary. Because what I originally wanted to know is why Jesus said, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Why do you think He said that? What point was He trying to make?

If you remember, we discussed this in an earlier post, where I explained the fact that when you read about Jesus, you are also reading about the Word. So believing the Word is believing in Jesus. People think that if they imagine Him and say: "Oh I believe there was a historical figure called Jesus" that they now believe in Him. The Bible is not that shallow. It ALSO means , that we have to believe the Word.

In other words, if you believe in Jesus as a historical figure, and you do not take up your cross and die to self, the Word (Jesus) says: You cannot be my disciple. (No matter what you believe, you have to still join your believe to the action of death to self) Same with all the other scriptures I have given you.

Say you are believing in Jesus, and you refuse to forgive people.Then it really does not matter that believe, does it, because Jesus himself tells you that the Father will not forgive you. We cannot enter the Kingdom unforgiven.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

There is not one unforgiven person in heaven

So Jesus was making a distinction between "believing" (merely knowing He exists) and "believing" (believing in Jesus as one's personal Savior)? Is that what I am to think about why Jesus made this point?

 

[Cornelius]

Whoever believes and has faith in Christ's actions to die and rise up from the dead to save us from the punishment for our sins is saved. That is all.

Of course some might argue that faith without works is nothing. I believe this, and it is biblically supported. But some take this out of context, and think that to be saved you need faith and works. This is not true. To be saved you need faith, and faith alone.
What I believe the statement of "faith without works is nothing" means is that faith without works is 'dead' faith. Works should be a response to your faith. Christ should be in your life. People should look at you and think "That person is Christian". But you do not need this to be saved.

This does not change the fact that Jesus Himself gave us many conditions to salvation. I know that some churches preach this easy grace gospel, but when we read the Bible, we see that there is in fact more to salvation, than what they want us to believe.

That is why we are told:Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; See? there is still something you must do. You have to WALK with God in this salvation, you cannot walk against the gospel and still think you are saved.

Amo 3:3 Shall two walk together, except they have agreed? So if you want to WALK with God, the two of you must also be in agreement. His Word is the point of agreement.

 

[Cornelius]

So Jesus was making a distinction between "believing" (merely knowing He exists) and "believing" (believing in Jesus as one's personal Savior)? Is that what I am to think about why Jesus made this point?

Still more than that. He is your savior. But His WORDS are that which brings eternal life.

First we enter in through belief, then we have to walk that belief out.

Joh 6:68.........thou hast the words of eternal life.
The Bible contains life. That is why Jesus said that we must eat His flesh (the Word is His flesh) and inside the Word (Flesh) flows blood.When we drink His blood, it contains eternal life. So in normal language it will mean: If your spiritual man eats the words of the Word, it contains the power to give eternal life to you.

Now look at what Jesus is saying here about HOW to get eternal life:

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. IF, is a condition.

Do you see that HE is not taking about just having faith in Him as a person here.He is adding something: you have to eat (read and believe) His Word to get eternal life. He said that because if we read and believe , we also DO. That is the MEAT of the Word. DOING.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work.

 

[Nick]

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

If you look at Philippines 2 (and looking at that passage you quoted in context) you will see that it is not talking about how we are saved, but rather how we should act after we are saved.


So, let's put that passage into context.
Here is Philippians 2:1-18:

1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ€â€
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyedâ€â€not only in my presence, but now much more in my absenceâ€â€continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out[c] the word of lifeâ€â€in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. 17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

In Christ,
-Nick

 

[Cornelius]

So, let's put that passage into context.

Nick, its a good idea to always place any scripture into the context of ALL Scripture.

So when we read the Bible with eyes that are not tainted by doctrine, we see that the whole context of the Bible tells us that salvation is just as much conditional as it is about faith.

I am not throwing faith out, but I am also not going to ignore the scriptures I have already given.

Salvation is definitely conditional to a few things, of which faith in Jesus as your savior is but one.

C

 

[XTruth]

Whoever believes and has faith in Christ's actions to die and rise up from the dead to save us from the punishment for our sins is saved. That is all.

Of course some might argue that faith without works is nothing. I believe this, and it is biblically supported. But some take this out of context, and think that to be saved you need faith and works. This is not true. To be saved you need faith, and faith alone.
What I believe the statement of "faith without works is nothing" means is that faith without works is 'dead' faith. Works should be a response to your faith. Christ should be in your life. People should look at you and think "That person is Christian". But you do not need this to be saved.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24). The same Greek word for "faith," as used in James 2 is the same Greek word for "believe," as used in John 3. That Greekj word is "pisteuo," which implies obedience, not a mere acceptance of a historical fact. W/o taking away or adding to Scripture, James 2:17 could have just as easily been translated, "Believing w/o obedience to the One you profess a belief in, makes that belief worthless." I'll post a word study on John 3:15-16, which the hearers of Jesus' words would not have needed.

 

[XTruth]

Cornelius, are you saying that I am reading John 3:16 out of context from the entire Word of God?

John 3:15
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The ‘whosoever’ of verse 15 and 16 truly means, ‘whoever and whatever person.’ Anybody who receives Christ and believes on His name will be adopted as a son of God (Jn.1:12; 1 Jn.1:9). The same meaning of whosoever should be accepted when reading warnings given to all men concerning names being taken out of the book of life (Ex.32:32-33), breaking God’s law and being separated from Him after you’ve had Him (2 Jn.1:9), denying Jesus, whether saved or not (Mat.10:33), becoming an adulterer and a murderer who’s worthy of death (Mat.5:22,28), etc. God does not distinguish between people, whether it be a Hitler that seeks Him or a Billy Graham of the 1960’s that sins against Him (Eze.33:12-13). God is no respecter of persons in judgments or mercies (1 Pt.1:17).

This verse is somewhat of an opener for the most famous salvation verse in the Bible. It is a great salvation verse, maybe the best. The only problem with most understandings of these verses is that most people are basing their entire doctrine on these verses alone, when they should be factoring in all scriptures. There are two kinds of salvation. If you got the second, then you had the first. If you receive the first, you won’t necessarily receive the second.

The first salvation is talked about in these two verses. There aren’t any time consuming conditions on this salvation. You just have to have faith in the work of Jesus on your behalf by confessing your sins to God in Jesus’ name. It takes no work from you, it only takes the energy to gather thoughts in your head and speak to God with your voice, and is the easiest thing on earth to get. This is initial salvation. If you die at that moment, you do have eternal life and that is when you receive the full reward of salvation (Mat.19:29; Jn.6:27; Rom.6:22; Heb.3:14; 12:15-17). Salvation isn’t manifested until you die, or have become a Rapture saint, as all righteous children of God will be. But only the holy and righteous (100% w/o sin - 1 Pt.2:21-22; 1 Jn.1:5-6; 2:3-6; 3:5-10; 5:18) will inherit eternal life (Lk.1:75; 1 Cor.6:9-10; 2 Cor.14-7:1; Gal.5:19-24; Eph.4:24; 1 Thes.4:7; Tit.2:11-12; Heb.12:14; 1 Pt.13-17; Rev.22:11).

Unless you’re dieing when you receive Christ, like the man on a cross next to Jesus (Lk.23:43), then a lot happens between the time of being made righteous, and the time of death. Receiving righteousness is the easiest thing in the world; continuing in righteousness takes work. The good news is that it’s possible to live free from sin and obey the gospel completely (Jn.1:12; Rom.6:12-14; 1 Jn.2:2-5; 3:6). The demands of the Mosaic Law were just (Rom.7:12), but gave no power to obey. Having Jesus in heaven interceding for us and the Holy Spirit with us on earth, we have the ability and the authority to live victorious lives for God (Acts 1:8; 1 Cor.15:57; Heb.4:14-16).

The wording of verse 15 even suggest the same. Everyone who believes in Jesus should not perish This is true. There’s no reason at all that Christians should perish. We should all have everlasting life at the end of our life, but many backslide, become apostates, or are deceived by false teachers and false doctrine. God inspired the words of the Bible (2 Tim.3:16), so there should be no second guessing the words used by the KJV. If these two verses meant it was impossible to perish after believing on Jesus, then the passage would read, “That whosoever believeth in Him will not ever perish.†The Bible is full of conditions regarding continued salvation. Just because there’s none in these immediate verses doesn’t void the other scripture’s conditions.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the bubba of all verses used for the case of the eternal security doctrine. The only passage that comes close to this is John 10:26-29. The holders of this doctrine believe our salvation is based directly upon the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. They believe everything about Christianity lives and dies on the person, not the teachings, morals, or example. They believe salvation is only on who He is and was. They believe, which is half true, that our salvation is only determined on recognizing Jesus to be the all and all, with nothing being required from us. They believe, unlike other religions, our faith is not based on the teachings, but upon the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They believe that everyone who believes Jesus is the Son of God can do whatever they want and still be righteous, like the laws that govern the universe, the law of righteousness (Rom.9:31), or the penalty that comes with the law of sin (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:23; 8:2, 12-13), has no affect on them. That’s not to say they don’t believe you should live righteous lives and sin no more (1 Jn.2:1), just like Scripture says, but they know there are people who still live in sin with the belief in the work of Jesus to redeem them; therefore, those rebels are still saved. The doctrine of conditional eternal security believes that all have been freed from the condemnation of past sin (Rom.3:25), but future sin will condemn you yet again until you repent once more (Jas.2:24). Lets investigate this verse further to see if any of this can be implied here.

The word ‘believeth,’ translated from the Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ is used 245 times throughout the New Testament; found here in this verse and in verses 15, 18, and 36. It’s used in these 245 verses with the meaning of having complete obedience to (Rom.6:11-23), being completely dependant upon (Rom.10:17), trusting wholeheartedly (Eph.1:13; Gal.5:16-26), believing the whole Bible as the same, collected truth (1 Tim.4:1; 2 Tim.3:16-17), being persuaded (2 Tim.1:12), to place confidence in (Heb.3:12-14), used for the definition of faith (Heb.11:1), and turning a 180 degrees to a new way of life. ‘Pisteuo,’ the Greek word for ‘believeth,’ is used in the present tense and denotes action as a process of faith that is to be continued in to receive the full benefits.

The Greek word ‘pisteuo,’ that is interpreted ‘believeth,’ comes from the Greek word ‘pistis,’ meaning one is persuaded of their moral conviction to the point of being completely loyal, unwavering, and unchangeable. The Greek word ‘pistis’ comes from the word ‘peitho,’ meaning one is convinced of the truth or lack of with all assuredness and confidence, by completely yielding and obeying. Stay with me, I’m getting to the point. The Greek language is very specific, having four separate words for love. There are several words for believe. This is important, so follow on.

The Greek word ‘apistia’ is translated ‘unbelief’ (Mk.6:6; Rom.3:3; Heb.3:12). It is used of people who failed to obey the Word. In other words, they may have mentally believed, but disobeyed. The Greek word ‘apeitheia’ is also translated ‘unbelief’ (Rom.1:30, 32; Heb.4:6,11). It also means disobedient to obeying the Word of God. The Greek word ‘apeitheo’ is translated ‘believeth not’ (John 3:36), and ‘believed not’ (Heb.3:18; 11:31).This word means to disobey. The Greek word ‘apisteo’ is translated ‘believed not’ (Rom.3:3; 2 Tim.2:13). It means disbelieve with the implication of disobeying. The Greek word ‘apistos’ is translated ‘unbelievers’ (Lk.12:46), and ‘unbelieving’ (Rev.21:8). It is the only word used of a solid disbelief of God or the acceptance of who Jesus is. No disobedience to the faith is implied since there is no faith to begin with. These people spoken about here are true unbelievers, Atheist.

As proved through this short and easy word study, we can see that believing is both an accepted fact and obeying those beliefs. Believing is a word that expresses action, and actions must be applied or God counts you with the unbelievers. Faith or believing, without action, is dead and worthless (Jas.2:17, 20, 26). All unbelief of God’s Word, whether that from an Atheist or a Christian that disobeys in even one commandment (Jas.2:10), is unreasonable, obstinate, rebellion, prejudiced, presumptuous, insolent, stubborn, self-willed, boastful, insensible, hardening, and deceitful.

 

[XTruth]

What makes you a Christian ?

(Not faith in God , because the devils also believe and they shudder)

The answer is amazingly simple, yet not accepted by most who even profess Christ. This should be of no surprise though..."3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor.11:3)." A Christian is a follower of Christ; if believing were the reason one is a Christian, then devils would also be Christians. The name was given by those who were not Christians, yet called this group of followers of Jesus the Christ "Christians," for they followed His teachings, and even these unsaved people who called these followers Christians...even they believed that Jesus was. To be a Christian, one must follow Christ in obedience to His ways. There is a narrow road that has no sin on it...the road to righteousness is not paved in sin. If you are following Christ, you are not in sin, but rather in Christ. If you sin, you have stepped off the path and not following the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8) or Christ (2 Cor.5:17-21; Heb.4:15; 1 Pt.2:21-22; 1 Jn.3:5-7). You are not a Christian when you sin (Eze.18:24-26; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Rev.21:8) and need to repent in order to be righteous again (2 Cor.5:21; 1 Jn.3:7) and be a Christian again (Eze.18:30-32; Mk.1:15; 2:17; Lk.13:3; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-2; Rev.2:5, 16, 21-22; 3:3, 19). No one can be in sin and call themself a Christian (Amos 3:3; Mat.12:29-30, 33; Lk.11:17-18, 34-36; 1 Cor.10:21). You must be born again...again (Ps.85:6; Jer.3:1; Eze.33:14; Jer.18:4; 25:5; Eze.18:27; Jn.3:3-7; Rom.11:23; Gal.4:19; Heb.5:12; Jas.5:19-20; 1 Pt.1:3, 23). If John 3:16 were all one needed for unconditional eternal life, then many righteous people had made their lives very difficult and many words are written in the Bible that are completely worthless.
"5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth (1 Jn.1:5-6)." "3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (1 Jn.2:3-6)." "21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth (1 Pt.2:21-22)."

 

[XTruth]

What makes you a Christian ?

(Not faith in God , because the devils also believe and they shudder)

What are you saying here Cornelius? That salvation is not by faith alone? Are you discounting the Gospel of John? Not to mention Paul's letters?

That the devils believe has got nothing to do with the Gospel of Christ and who is or is not a "Christian."

Several things here:

First: The devils do not believe in God. They know God. Reread all the passages where they come before Christ. They knew who He was.

Second: God did not make provision for the devils in His plan of redemption. Redemption is for man only-- So whether the devils "believe" or not is irrelevant.

What makes one a "Christian?"

Christ does! When He births a person of His Spirit. He who does not have the Spirit of Christ is none of His as Paul said.

sonlite101

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (1 Jn.2:3-6).

DO THE DEVILS KNOW GOD?

 

[JoJo]

The gift of salvation through God's grace and mercy is so wonderfully simple. There really is no need to analyze it to pieces so that Christians and non-Christians alike end up trying to stay afloat in the sea of debate.

I accept Jesus as God's Son and as the Messiah.
I accept the Word as Truth.
I admit I am a sinner in need of a Savior.
I give my life, my will, fully over to Him.
I am saved.

(all of these statements can be categorized under the label "believe") I believe that is why Jesus said, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Everything beyond belief is works and, while beneficial to the Christian and the kingdom, works are merely the icing on the cake.

 

[azlan88]

Uh oh. Hope I didn't arrive to this conversation too late. Where it seems like things are going, we are in fact justified by faith, so I believe that my faith in Jesus' divinity and resurrection make me a Christian. Although it is written of those who fall away from the faith so what makes a person a real Christian? I'm not going to pretend to know everything on this matter, but Jesus said that if we love one another, then others will know that we are his disciples, so then we can know too, right?

 

[mutzrein]

Uh oh. Hope I didn't arrive to this conversation too late. Where it seems like things are going, we are in fact justified by faith, so I believe that my faith in Jesus' divinity and resurrection make me a Christian. Although it is written of those who fall away from the faith so what makes a person a real Christian? I'm not going to pretend to know everything on this matter, but Jesus said that if we love one another, then others will know that we are his disciples, so then we can know too, right?

Yes we are justified by faith, but if my faith does not allow me to believe in the divinity of Jesus, there is going to be some who say that I am NOT a christian.

To them the fruit of our lives counts for nothing, never mind that we love God and one another, and that we are born of His Spirit. So to me, 'faith' in Jesus divinity has nothing to do with making me a Christian.