What Most Christians Believe

[Catholic Crusader]

The total number of Christians in the world is: 2.1 billion. This is how it breaks down:

1) Catholics: 1.2 billion
2) Eastern Orthodox: 0.4 billion
3) Protestansts (Baptists, Lutherans, etc. etc): 0.4 billion
4) Other (Coptics, etc.) 0.1 billion

In light of these statistics, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians have their theological viewpoint represented in the main theology section, while the theological views of the vast majority of Christians - the Catholics - is relegated to some sub-forum?

And while I am on the subject, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians say what it is that Christians are supposed to beieve? And, more than that, among themselves they argue endlessly because that small group is divided into hundreds of "denominations" who all disagree on doctrines, all the while claiming that the Holy Spirit guides them when they read the Scriptures.

This is not meant to be offensive, although I'm sure a few folks will be offended, but to me its a matter of perspective.

 

[JayR]

There are also billions and billions of secular lost men completely void of any religion who far outnumber the Christians, does that mean they are right? No. Do numbers mean anything when it comes to truth? No. If every human being on the planet claims to be a Christian and every single one of them believed in heretical doctrine except for exactly one in whom God preserved His truth, would that one be wrong because the majority disagrees? Absolutely not.

The reason why protestants define true doctrine is because catholicism is a works based religion. They teach that the action performed in the sacrements is the expression of faith which God blesses and pours out His grace upon unto salvation. That's heresy. "By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Faith is a gift. Every single aspect of salvation is a gift. That's what this passage teaches. None of it comes from ourselves, but it is all grace, grace, grace. When you turn biblical practices into works and explain to people that when you do these works God will then be obligated to give you grace, you are not only contradicting the very term "grace" you are teaching heresy. By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves... Nothing in salvation has anything to do with men. Men are dead in trespasses and sins, incapable of believing in God or having faith in Him until God puts His Spirit within them and grants them repentance and saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation isn't a series of hoops that you jump through in order to say that you accomplished what the Lord commanded and now He must give you your due measure of grace for doing His will. That's heresy. Salvation is when God takes a God-hating sinner, an enemy of God who is absolutely dead in sin and helpless to save himself, and saves him by His own power and grace for His own glory, and by claiming that you had any part in that matter is heresy. It is grace, grace, grace.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The reason why protestants define true doctrine is because catholicism is a works based religion....

There are two things demonstrably wrong with your statement:

1) Protestants teach conflicting doctrines. Lutherans say you baptise babies, Baptists say you don't. Pentacostals say you must speak in tounges, Presbyterians say you don't. Episcopalians confess their sins to a priest, most protestants say you don't. The conflicting vortex of opposing doctrines is not the work of the Holy Spirit, because God is not the author of confusion.

2) The Catholic Church is not a works based religion. A simple read of the Official Catechism will show you this. Here are a few sections:

CCC 1996: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us..."

CCC 2010: "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification..."

CCC 1992: "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men."

Catholics do NOT believe in justification by works apart from Christ. As usual, the Catechism is out there for all to see, but people would rather parrot anti-Catholic rhetoric then bother to actually read what the Church teaches - and I don't mean read what the Church teaches according to Jimmy Swaggart or Jack Chick, I mean read what the Church teaches according to the Church.
You might want to read this link: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

 

[JayR]

Protestants may disagree on those non-essential doctrines, but the true ones atleast have the essentials straight. It is better to be divided on the non-essentials and one on the essentials than to be united in heresy like the catholic church.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Protestants may disagree on those non-essential doctrines....

Baptism is mentioned many many times in the Bible. How can yyou say it is non-essential? For that matter, how can any individual decide which scriptures are essential and which are not? I thought you held the Bible in such high esteem.


However, as I said, the point of this thread is: Should not ALL Christians, be they Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox - even Messianic Jews - be allowed to post in the same sections? Should one group be forced to "sit in the back of the bus", as it were?

 

[JayR]

How can yyou say it is non-essential?

Because it isn't an absolute necessity for salvation. When I say essential, I mean, if you come across a dying man in the middle of a desert who wants to know what he needs to know in order to go to heaven, are you going to start talking to him about dunking him in a lake? Are you going to start talking to him about the Lord's supper? Are you going to start talking to him about saying 10 idolatrous hail Mary's? No, if you know what you're doing you are going to explain to him about what Jesus Christ did on the cross and the ressurection in hope that God will regenerate His soul and seal him with His Holy Spirit.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

How can yyou say it is non-essential?

Because it isn't an absolute necessity for salvation....

In your opinion, but not in the 2000 year old Christian Tradition

 

[JayR]

The Pharisees had a works based tradition and they were radically wrong. It was probably pretty old too.

So if you hog tie a random man and throw him into a lake and dunk him in the name of the Lord, according to your definition of the awesome power of water baptism, he is going to die to sin isn't he?

 

[mutzrein]

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen :wink:

 

[biblecatholic]

Protestants may disagree on those non-essential doctrines, but the true ones atleast have the essentials straight. It is better to be divided on the non-essentials and one on the essentials than to be united in heresy like the catholic church.

I wanted to just ask one question. I don't really want to debate what this thread is about(no offense) These forums are a really good place to dialog with brothers and the forum separation is because abuse and it was done out of charity(love).


I had a question about where in the scriptures does it give us a list of the "essential" and "nonessential" I can't find that in my bible or the KJV, it's not even in the index where is it in yours?

 

[mutzrein]

Protestants may disagree on those non-essential doctrines, but the true ones atleast have the essentials straight. It is better to be divided on the non-essentials and one on the essentials than to be united in heresy like the catholic church.

I wanted to just ask one question. I don't really want to debate what this thread is about(no offense) These forums are a really good place to dialog with brothers and the forum separation is because abuse and it was done out of charity(love).


I had a question about where in the scriptures does it give us a list of the "essential" and "nonessential" I can't find that in my bible or the KJV, it's not even in the index where is it in yours?

BC - What to you, are the essentials? In your opinion what would you say are the things - if they were not held to - that would disqualify a person from being a Christian?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

No individual has any authority to decide what is essential and what is not essential. That is un-Biblical, just like Sola Scripture - a tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.

 

[Imagican]

No individual has any authority to decide what is essential and what is not essential. That is un-Biblical, just like Sola Scripture - a tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.

NO, it is NOT 'unbiblical'. It is simply NOT what is taught by the CC.

The Bible is NOT the ONLY 'way' that we have of understanding God's will for mankind. The Spirit is ABLE and WILLING to offer guidance to those that ACCEPT IT, (don't forget, the apostles HAD NO BIBLE. They were LED BY The Spirit in which they placed their TRUST).

God IS LOVE. And those that LIVE in the Spirit of LOVE are those that are ABLE to PLEASE God the MOST. The CC has a history of teaching and practicing MUCH hate. Hate towards ANYONE and ANYTHING that goes 'against' what they TEACH. Choosing to persecute and destroy ALL that denies what they have offered.

Fortunately today they have LOST most of their 'earthly power'. Times have changed and God has seen FIT to 'take away' the 'self-Glory' that the CC once held so dearly. They are certainly able to influence and manipulate those that allow them this, but so far as their once held AUTHORITY backed by emperors and kings, those days are GONE, (so far).

And look at their record................

Greed, hate, pride, persecution, infidelity, false teachings, the list goes on and on.

Now, you asked. I am simply offering explanation. And as stated previous; numbers mean little. God once destroyed a WHOLE race of people for their wickedness. And IF ANYTHING, the numbers represent 'the world' MORE than the 'truth'. For the MAJORITY of the 'world' WILL follow Satan rather than God. Ever heard that there WILL be a 'falling away'? What do you think this 'refers to'? A falling away of 'religion'? NOT EVEN. But a 'falling away' FROM the TRUTH. Religion WILL be the 'tool' that Satan uses to encourage the WORLD to 'worship HIM'. And WHO better to LEAD those to worship HIM than a 'man-made' church that pledges to FOLLOW where ever they are LED?

MEC

 

[the_owls_flight]

Thank you Catholic Crusader for posting these statistics. I'd never seen the breakdown before.

The fact that Protestantism has so many denominations is strange to me. If Martin Luther's reformation was an accurate move, it seems like there would be only one Protestant faction. Instead, there are..well, how many? A hundred? Seems like it sometimes. I guess it can be chalked up to being picky on minor issues, at least some of the time, but it sems striking that while Protestants are divided, there aren't twenty or thirty Catholic "denominations". I have plenty of Protestant friends who I respect and I would never claim that they don't believe accurately, but I don't get why it seems so divisive. Maybe someone could tell me what the differences are in the denominations?

 

[turnorburn]

Catholic Crusader Wrote:

No individual has any authority to decide what is essential and what is not essential. That is un-Biblical, just like Sola Scripture - a tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.

(According to the Catholic church one person does, that's him he's right there"Your Avatar")

 

[Imagican]

Thank you Catholic Crusader for posting these statistics. I'd never seen the breakdown before.

The fact that Protestantism has so many denominations is strange to me. If Martin Luther's reformation was an accurate move, it seems like there would be only one Protestant faction. Instead, there are..well, how many? A hundred? Seems like it sometimes. I guess it can be chalked up to being picky on minor issues, at least some of the time, but it sems striking that while Protestants are divided, there aren't twenty or thirty Catholic "denominations". I have plenty of Protestant friends who I respect and I would never claim that they don't believe accurately, but I don't get why it seems so divisive. Maybe someone could tell me what the differences are in the denominations?

The answer to your question is SIMPLE; The CC had the ABILITY for well over a thousand years to FORCE everyone under their control to ACCEPT what they offer through threat of torture or DEATH. This allowed them to form a pretty precise system over the span of two thousand years.

And don't believe for a SECOND that they DiDN'T have their splits, schisms, etc............ it has taken the CC two thousand years of evolution to become what it is today. And it's STILL evolving.

The Protestants have had such a difficult time maintaining unity for the simple fact that Martin Luther started out askew. He did NOT 'start over' with God and His Son but carried with him MUCH Catholic baggage that kept him from being able to recognize the COMPLETE Truth. He recognized the BLATANT abuse of the clergy but didn't recognize the more subtle falsities that had been taught for hundreds upon hundreds of years BEFORE his time. MOST of what he had been taught as 'a good Catholic' he adhered to and perpetuated in his teachings. THIS CONFUSION is why it has been SO hard to for ONE unified Protestant denomination.

There is NO SUCH THING as 'denominationalism' in The Church. For The Church is NOT a denomination but simply the Body of Christ.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Catholic Crusader Wrote: No individual has any authority to decide what is essential and what is not essential. That is un-Biblical, just like Sola Scripture - a tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.

(According to the Catholic church one person does, that's him he's right there"Your Avatar")

That is not accurate. The pope has whatever authority Peter had. No more, no less. And that is good material to start another thread.

No, its a matter of an entirely different concept: That Christ established an authoratative teaching Church. The Bible is the Word of God: There is no argument there. But who is the teacher? The individual, or the Church? The Bible says that it is the Church.

However, as I said, the point of this thread is: Should not ALL Christians, be they Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox - even Messianic Jews - be allowed to start threads about their theologyu in the same sections? Or should one group be forced to "sit in the back of the bus", as it were?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...The CC had the ABILITY for well over a thousand years to FORCE everyone under their control to ACCEPT what they offer through threat of torture or DEATH.....

Then why is it that so many protestants, and more especially, so many protestant PASTORS, come home to Rome and the Cathoilic Church every day? I believe it is because these men - and women - who are steeped in the tradition of Sola Scriptura - have opened themselves up to the Holy Spirit, and have told God that they will believe whatever God reveals to them in the Scriptures.

The Coming Home Network ( http://www.chnetwork.org/ ) assists hundreds of protestant pastors who convert every year, and also Rabbis and Imams. Their weekly television show, The Journey Home , is truly uplifting and edifying with each week's guest speaking about how the Holy Spirit has lead them into the fullness of Christ's Truth - the Catholic Church.

Your torture rant holds no water in the 21st century. Protestants become Catholics every day becausae they are attracted to The Truth.

 

[GraceBwithU]

The total number of Christians in the world is: 2.1 billion. This is how it breaks down:

1) Catholics: 1.2 billion
2) Eastern Orthodox: 0.4 billion
3) Protestansts (Baptists, Lutherans, etc. etc): 0.4 billion
4) Other (Coptics, etc.) 0.1 billion

In light of these statistics, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians have their theological viewpoint represented in the main theology section, while the theological views of the vast majority of Christians - the Catholics - is relegated to some sub-forum?

Using numbers to prove a religious doctrine is very shallow minded.

If I saw 12 buses headed for the edge of a cliff, and 1 headed away. I would perfer to be on the 1 headed away.

If the early Christians had applied this logic, Christianity would never have taken root.

Matt 7:13-14
3 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
KJV

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but does the Catholic Church support the following:

• Homosexuals priest
• Women priest
• Praying to someone other than God or Jesus, (Mary, and other saints)

Before you answer I do want you to understand that I am not bashing women or homosexuals. And I also know that other denominations also support some of these things.

I happen to agree with many things that the Catholic Church teaches, but the things I have listed above are 100% unbiblical. I have a hard time understanding how a religion can claim to believe in Jesus…and turn around and willfully break His commandments and teachings.

Please help me to understand. I do not wish to offend you. I’m just trying to understand.

One other thing, confession, when a person goes to confession, what do they do, what do they say? Do they actually say what Hollywood uses in so many of their movies? “Bless me father for I have sinned.†Or something like that. And are you addressing the priest as father or God as Father. Is this true or just Hollywood?

Also, please do not answer this post with a link to some Catholic website. This does nothing to prove your points. I know you are Catholic.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Using numbers to prove a religious doctrine is very shallow minded.

You have misinterpreted my post. I am not saying that numbers mean we are correct. I am saying that protestants do not have the right to say that THEY are the ones who are correct and we are wrong, ESPECIALLY in light of these numbers.