What Most Christians Believe

[Catholic Crusader]

I have also posted scripture that shows plainly that Jesus is the only mediator between God and men.. I am simply asking for scripture that states that the saints are mediators between God and men.

Even thought the word Trinity is not in the Bible, the concept clearly is. So, ask me: Is the concept of the interecession of the saints also in the Bible? Yes, it is.

As I already said, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Again, as I said, protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. It is important to note that praying to saints is not a requirement of Catholics, just an option: Just as a protestant doesnt HAVE to ask a friend to pray for them, but they can

I quoted Heb 12: 22-24. This is a vision of heaven, and it says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

And I said those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

And regarding Christ's mediatorship, I already stated that the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

What else do you want from me? If you want more Biblical references, I again direct you to this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

 

[GraceBwithU]

Amen...so what is the Mary and saints thing that CC wants to support through non canical books of the bible and tridition.?

I think this is all blown out of proportion. Catholics that follow thier faith simply treat Mary as someone that can pray for them in time of need. Faithful Catholics in no way replace Jesus with Mary. They still go straight to the Savior himself. We just think that asking for friends to pray for us is a nice addition to our own prayers that we give striaght to Christ. We know that anything that is done for us is through Christ, but we also believe Christ listens to others as they pray for us in times of need. I missed Mass today because of the FLU, but typically we only hear Mary mentioned outside of scripture once during the Mass and it is not in the way you may think.

Now we may disagree about whether or not Mary can hear us and that's fine and being confused about it one way or the other, is certainly not grounds for anyone to be damned to hell. Some Catholics show Mary a tremendous amount of respect because of the important role she played, while other Catholics do not do much beyond whatever acknowledgement occurs during the Mass.
I don't even know who started this thread but I think most Christians have always held a high veiw of Mary, which any faithful Catholic knows does not take away from Christ. I would think that Mary is loved very much in heaven and doubt that God holds it against us that we think she is worthy of respect. In this day and age of the internet, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church can be read by anyone; yet we still see the most horrid lies and assumptions spread about Catholics.

I'd better stop, feels like the fever is coming back :-D

It's subjects like this that appear to make some people come off as so cold.

I'm not cold, But I'm not lukewarm either.
I have asked a simple question that has not been answered by scripture.
Have you ever heard of the miracle staircase in New Mexico. Who did the nuns pray to, (Saint Joeseph)...and why did thay just not simply follow the scripture and go straight to the source? JESUS! What is the point?

Well the staircase has since been proved not to be a miracle at all, but it raises a lot of money for the Catholic Church, (250,000 visitors a year)
I repeat something that you did not agree with... but that is OK.

There is a HUGE difference in asking your fellow Christian to pray for you and to pray TO your fellow Christian. I'm only asking for scripture to say that Mary or any saint is to be our mediator.

I will gladly accept this. I'm really not trying to spread false rumors about Catholics.I merely asked a simple question. If you ever pray to any of the saints even once...you are breaking the commandments and teachings of Christ.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Matt 15:3
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matt 15:6
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mark 7:8
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:9
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:13
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Col 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
1 Peter 1:18
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

MY THREE OF A KIND BEATS YOUR FLUSH :D

Actually I showed seven of a kind... So what are these traditions...praying to false gods. as the pagans do.
Trump.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

So what are these traditions...praying to false gods. as the pagans do...

What false gods?
I don't think Paul was telling the Thessolonians or Galatians to do that.
I knows I sure don't.
:D

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Amen...so what is the Mary and saints thing that CC wants to support through non canical books of the bible and tridition.?

I think this is all blown out of proportion. Catholics that follow thier faith simply treat Mary as someone that can pray for them in time of need. Faithful Catholics in no way replace Jesus with Mary. They still go straight to the Savior himself. We just think that asking for friends to pray for us is a nice addition to our own prayers that we give striaght to Christ. We know that anything that is done for us is through Christ, but we also believe Christ listens to others as they pray for us in times of need. I missed Mass today because of the FLU, but typically we only hear Mary mentioned outside of scripture once during the Mass and it is not in the way you may think.

Now we may disagree about whether or not Mary can hear us and that's fine and being confused about it one way or the other, is certainly not grounds for anyone to be damned to hell. Some Catholics show Mary a tremendous amount of respect because of the important role she played, while other Catholics do not do much beyond whatever acknowledgement occurs during the Mass.
I don't even know who started this thread but I think most Christians have always held a high veiw of Mary, which any faithful Catholic knows does not take away from Christ. I would think that Mary is loved very much in heaven and doubt that God holds it against us that we think she is worthy of respect. In this day and age of the internet, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church can be read by anyone; yet we still see the most horrid lies and assumptions spread about Catholics.

I'd better stop, feels like the fever is coming back :-D

It's subjects like this that appear to make some people come off as so cold.

A fair statement. It is easier to discuss things when both sides ubderstand the others' position accurately.

 

[GraceBwithU]

OK guys
A-christian was correct...this is getting out of hand.

All I'm asking is about one issue....maybe I should put it a different way?

First of all using trinity as a comparison is dodging the question....I can count to 3.

Do Catholics ever pray to someone else other than Jesus. Or even if they do...how do they close the prayer?
Do they offer the prayer to the saint in the name of Jesus?

If the answer to my last question is yes, then I can accept your statements that when you pray to the saints you are only asking for help with your prayers and that you are not using them to substitude for Jesus.

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

This was your interpretation of the verse. At least I think it is...I'm really sure...
"1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed:"

 

[Devekut]

GraceBwithU,

Yes, all Catholic prayers assume, whether implicitly or explicitly stated, that they are being done both in the Name and through the power of Jesus. In fact, our theology of the Saints teaches that there is a Communion of the Saints solely by the atoning death of Christ who has brought us all into a single Body. The unity of the Body of Christ makes it possible for the dead in Christ to pray for the living.

A traditional, and favorite Marian prayer of mine, is the:

The Angelus

The Angel of the Lord brought his message to Mary, she conceived by the Holy Spirit

1. Hail Mary Prayer

Behold, the hand maid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word!

2. Hail Mary Prayer

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among among us [bow or genuflect]

3. Hail Mary

Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we might be made worthy of the promises of Christ

Let us pray,

O Lord, pour forth, we beseech you, your grace into our hearts that we, to whom the Incarnation of Your Son, our Lord, was made known by the message of an angel, may by the power of his Passion and Crucifixion, be brought to the glory of his Resurrection, through that same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Glory be to the Father, to the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

 

[A-Christian]

I'm not cold, But I'm not lukewarm either.

I don't think you’re cold either, but you must recognize that Catholics and some other Christians may believe different than you. I do think you want to understand. As a former Protestant, I too once wanted to understand all the wacky things Catholics did so I started on a journey and eventually saw things in a way I had not considered before. I am Catholic now, the only one in my family which has a strong Protestant background going back many generations. Issues with family are one of the obstacles that many Catholic converts have to face and perhaps that makes it harder to begin on such a journey. I would be happy to tell you more about my journey in a different thread as time allows. Maybe a Catholic convert could start a Catholic Journey thread. I see you pointing at me:-D In that thread maybe we won't hash out theology with each other, but perhaps just let the convert tell his story.

Anyway, I sure do not think you are going to hell because I bet you love the Lord as much as me or anyone else here. I hope you don't think that I am hell bound. My life as a Catholic is probably nothing like you might think. As a former Protestant I sure thought Catholics were off track, but then again I did not fully understand the Catholic faith nor was I exposed to practicing Catholics.

Threads like these probably will not do much for any Protestant that thinks they have all the answers but in your case, if you meant what you said about wanting to understand Catholics, you will have to begin a journey that if taken with prayer and earnestness may lead you to a place you had not intended and it will try you. Just remember, the only real answers to the Catholic faith are to be found within it, thus that is where one must begin.

 

[GraceBwithU]

GraceBwithU,

Yes, all Catholic prayers assume, whether implicitly or explicitly stated, that they are being done both in the Name and through the power of Jesus. In fact, our theology of the Saints teaches that there is a Communion of the Saints solely by the atoning death of Christ who has brought us all into a single Body. The unity of the Body of Christ makes it possible for the dead in Christ to pray for the living.

A traditional, and favorite Marian prayer of mine, is the:

The Angelus

The Angel of the Lord brought his message to Mary, she conceived by the Holy Spirit

1. Hail Mary Prayer

Behold, the hand maid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word!

2. Hail Mary Prayer

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among among us [bow or genuflect]

3. Hail Mary

Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we might be made worthy of the promises of Christ

Let us pray,

O Lord, pour forth, we beseech you, your grace into our hearts that we, to whom the Incarnation of Your Son, our Lord, was made known by the message of an angel, may by the power of his Passion and Crucifixion, be brought to the glory of his Resurrection, through that same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Glory be to the Father, to the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Thank you...this helps. Like I said I am only trying to understand . :wink:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Do Catholics ever pray to someone else other than Jesus. Or even if they do...how do they close the prayer?

These are difficult questions. I pray as I am moved at the time. I can say that when I talk to the saints and ask them to pray for me, I don't talk to them much differently than I would talk to you if I asked YOU to pray for me. Thats about the best answer I can give. (And remember: I don't see prayer as necessarily being worship.)

Do they offer the prayer to the saint in the name of Jesus?

Again, I would not go up to you and say "Please pray for me bro, and I'm asking you in the name of Jesus". That is not really necessary.

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I can only say once again, that me asking you to pray for me does not inerfere with Christ's mediatorship, and neither does asking the Christians in heaven.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Another question...

Is then the sign of the cross that seems to always be part of prayer with Catholics actually doing just what I asked about before? Is this your way of offering your prayer in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

If this is true then I can understand. even though I may not practice this type of prayer. I simply get down on my knees in private and offer my thoughts and soul to God in the name of Jesus.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Another question...
Is then the sign of the cross that seems to always be part of prayer with Catholics actually doing just what I asked about before? Is this your way of offering your prayer in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? If this is true then I can understand. even though I may not practice this type of prayer. I simply get down on my knees in private and offer my thoughts and soul to God in the name of Jesus.

It is an ancient tradition that is traced back to antiquity. But yes, when we make the sign, we say, "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
I know you don't like my links, but here is an interesting magazine article on that subject:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007cc.asp

 

[A-Christian]

Is then the sign of the cross that seems to always be part of prayer with Catholics actually doing just what I asked about before? Is this your way of offering your prayer in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Not really. Catholics use it in many other instances too. It's has a way of helping a person to keep their focus on Christ.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Another question...
Is then the sign of the cross that seems to always be part of prayer with Catholics actually doing just what I asked about before? Is this your way of offering your prayer in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? If this is true then I can understand. even though I may not practice this type of prayer. I simply get down on my knees in private and offer my thoughts and soul to God in the name of Jesus.

It is an ancient tradition that is traced back to antiquity. But yes, when we make the sign, we say, "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
I know you don't like my links, but here is an interesting magazine article on that subject:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007cc.asp

Thank you all for your patience. I think I understand. If all your prayers are in the name of Jesus, then I guess it doesn’t matter what the contents of the prayer is. And this changes everything. This allows me to understand that you are only asking for help from the saints, not praying to them…big difference. I will visit your link. I wanted it from you guys first.

As I have said earlier, I have defended the Catholic Church more than once to my Baptist friends. Saying we should not accept hearsay. This was one of the biggest things that I could not understand. Thank you all for helping me understand….

This does not mean however that I’m converting to Catholicism. :wink: I’m comfortable in my worship. Just wanted to understand, I have another but not as big.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Thank you all for your patience....

No problemmo. Oh, and I think I called you "bro" earlier. Sorry. I didn't know you were a girl. LOL. :D

 

[GraceBwithU]

Thank you all for your patience....

No problemmo. Oh, and I think I called you "bro" earlier. Sorry. I didn't know you were a girl. LOL. :D

I'm not a girl the grace in my name is about Gods grace...I'm a brother. Lot's of people make that mistake. I've even had guys on other chat sites try to come on to me....

 

[A-Christian]

I've even had guys on chat site try to pick me up....

eewwww! :-D

 

[GraceBwithU]

Is then the sign of the cross that seems to always be part of prayer with Catholics actually doing just what I asked about before? Is this your way of offering your prayer in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Not really. Catholics use it in many other instances too. It's has a way of helping a person to keep their focus on Christ.

Any prayer to God that is prayed in any other name than Jesus will not go passed the cieling. It's vainity and ritual...nothing more. A simple waste of time

 

[handy]

And not just Catholics use the sign of cross, or prayer beads for that matter. Many simply find that these things help one focus their attention, not unlike the folding of the hands and the bowing of the head or as GBWY said, getting on ones knees. I know that my prayers are much more focused and I don't forget things when I use my prayer beads. I don't pray the rosary like many Catholics, but I do have beads that represent the different people and things I pray for, and yes, some of the beads represent 'rote' prayers such as the bead that represents the "Our Father" and the bead that represents Jude 24-25 which I include after I pray for my family and friends.

A-Christian, I would like to see a Catholic convert start a Catholic journey thread. I know that 10 years ago, I was as hostile to Catholic doctrines as anyone could be, now my husband and I have had some serious conversations regarding becoming catholic. I'm not quite there yet, and still have some serious issues with certain doctrines. But, in our area there are Mormons (out of the question), the RCC, and a bevy of either "Ain't God just our best guy, hallelujah" type churches where worship services have been replaced by 'fellowship celebrations' or ultra liberal congregations, like the Evangelical Lutheran Church which my in-laws go to which is seriously considering allowing gay ministers. Frankly, the 2000 year history of the RCC and it's stability is getting more and more desirable. As we are trying to raise our kids, it would be nice to have them in an environment of stablity.

But, the stablity has to be based upon the strong foundation of worship in deed and truth. To many non-Catholics, the issue is that we see a lot of what doesn't seem to be truth in Catholic worship. Forums like this help, and when Catholics such as yourself and CC and biblecatholic and the other RCC brothers come and share your perspectives, and clear up the many mis-understandings regarding the RCC, that helps as well.

 

[A-Christian]

Any prayer to God that is prayed in any other name than Jesus will not go passed the cieling. It's vainity and ritual...nothing more. A simple waste of time

I agree. :D I was only trying say that the sign of the cross can be and has been used for more than prayer.