What Most Christians Believe

[Catholic Crusader]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but does the Catholic Church support the following: Homosexuals priest

If you are asking can a homosexual become a priest, the answer is YES. Why? All men are sinners, and we are all inclined to different sins. If a man promises not to engage in his personal weakness, whatever it may be, we cannot presuppose that he is lying. Now, as for our stand on homosexuality itself, the Church teaches that homosexual sex is a mortal sin. Quote:

2357 - Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 - The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 - Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3 ... t2art6.htm

Women priest

There will never be women priests. To understand why, one must understand sacramental theology. In this thread, it suffices to say that it will never happen.

Praying to someone other than God or Jesus, (Mary, and other saints)

Why Is prayer to the saints difficult for protestants to grasp? In Catholic understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

It is important to note that praying to saints is not a requirement of Catholics, just an option: Just as a protestant doesnt HAVE to ask a friend to pray for them, but they can

Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

BUT, can they Hear Us? Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Oh, the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

Biblical references:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

 

[mutzrein]

No individual has any authority to decide what is essential and what is not essential. That is un-Biblical, just like Sola Scripture - a tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.

So if I say that I believe Jesus is not God, you're not gonna say that I cannot be a Christian?

 

[GraceBwithU]

If you are asking can a homosexual become a priest, the answer is YES. Why? All men are sinners, and we are all inclined to different sins. If a man promises not to engage in his personal weakness, whatever it may be, we cannot presuppose that he is lying. Now, as for our stand on homosexuality itself, the Church teaches that homosexual sex is a mortal sin.

Thank you CC I agree that a homosexual that repents and turns from there habitual sin is no different than the drunkard that repents. I guess what I was asking is can a homosexual or any other person that has is a victim to a habitual sin become a priest without first turning from that lifestyle. And I think you answered the question. I’m assuming that the answer would be NO if the person refused to repent. I may have not been specific. The news media sometimes makes it appear that it is ok. This is why I asked you the question. I don’t trust the way that news reports everything.

Another question, Should a priest that commits homosexual acts after becoming a priest be allowed to remain in leadership, even if they repent?

There will never be women priests. To understand why, one must understand sacramental theology. In this thread, it suffices to say that it will never happen.

Here again thank you for clarifying. I asked you so you could answer. You see many things that people believe of Catholics are simply hearsay, not the truth.

Why Is prayer to the saints difficult for protestants to grasp? In Catholic understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

It is important to note that praying to saints is not a requirement of Catholics, just an option: Just as a protestant doesnt HAVE to ask a friend to pray for them, but they can

Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

Here is where I must strongly disagree. Protestants can not grasp this because it 100% not biblical. None of the scripture you have quoted indicate in anyway we must pray to or through the saints. Not one scripture in the bible states that we should pray by any other name than Jesus. Your scriptures on this subject are merely a justification of willfully breaking of God’s commandments.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV

Rev 5:8
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
KJV

Sorry…where does it say in these scriptures that we should pray to saints? Is this how you justify breaking His commandments? WOW!

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

Huh…you must have a different bible than I do. This verse actually destroys what you are trying to justify. How can you twist this scripture into praying to the saints?
:D

 

[GraceBwithU]

Using numbers to prove a religious doctrine is very shallow minded.

You have misinterpreted my post. I am not saying that numbers mean we are correct. I am saying that protestants do not have the right to say that THEY are the ones who are correct and we are wrong, ESPECIALLY in light of these numbers.

Double talk.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

So if I say that I believe Jesus is not God, you're not gonna say that I cannot be a Christian?

Well, what do YOU think? I'm not going to tell you what you can and cannot be. But the fact that Jesus is fully God and fully man - two natures perfectly joined in the person of Christ - has been a fundamental tenet of the Christian faith for well over a millenium. This issue arose with the arch-heretic Arius in the 4th century, and the Council of Nicea dealt with it. Hence we profess as part of our Credo:

...We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father....

Having said all that, I am not God. Only God will judge who and what you are. I do not like it when people say Catholics are not Christians. Why would I turn around and do that to you?

 

[GraceBwithU]

No individual has any authority to decide what is essential and what is not essential. That is un-Biblical, just like Sola Scripture - a tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.

So if I say that I believe Jesus is not God, you're not gonna say that I cannot be a Christian?

No you are not a Christian if you state this and believe it. you belong to a cult or a false religion. Even Muslim believe that Jesus existed.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

Believing in Jesus is not just believing He existed. It is believing, who he is, why He came, what he did, and why he did it.

 

[biblecatholic]

Thank you CC I agree that a homosexual that repents and turns from there habitual sin is no different than the drunkard that repents. I guess what I was asking is can a homosexual or any other person that has is a victim to a habitual sin become a priest without first turning from that lifestyle. And I think you answered the question. I’m assuming that the answer would be NO if the person refused to repent. I may have not been specific. The news media sometimes makes it appear that it is ok. This is why I asked you the question. I don’t trust the way that news reports everything.

Some one who suffers from a "same sex attraction disorder" would have to repent. I'm not going to lie to you there have been homosexuals who slipped in which is sad. The Catholic Priesthood is a call to fatherhood- spiritual fatherhood. If someone is a homosexual they can not also be a father hence it is not the call for them. If they get healed from this emotional/mental and spiritual disorder then they can become a priest....now you will get some within the church that disagree ,but this is the truth

Another question, Should a priest that commits homosexual acts after becoming a priest be allowed to remain in leadership, even if they repent?

this is a tough one. Because we are all sinners... But I would say yes. because it's so intrinsically evil.(eventhough the people suffering from this are not)


About praying to saints.. The concept within Catholicism about the Body of Christ is a key picture. The Body of Christ is looked at as inseparable form Him. Thus being part of the Body we(those on earth and in heaven) share in the work of Christ. We believe since they are "alive in Christ" they can intercede for us to and through Christ as does the body here on earth.

Blessings

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Should a priest that commits homosexual acts after becoming a priest be allowed to remain in leadership, even if they repent?

I don't mean to sound trite, but we are called to forgive. If sinning meant a priest had to be defrocked, we would have no priests.

Here is where I must strongly disagree. Protestants can not grasp this because it 100% not biblical....

Try reading this link and see what you think:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

If you want more information, go here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

:infinity:

 

[GraceBwithU]

Should a priest that commits homosexual acts after becoming a priest be allowed to remain in leadership, even if they repent?

I don't mean to sound trite, but we are called to forgive. If sinning meant a priest had to be defrocked, we would have no priests.

Here is where I must strongly disagree. Protestants can not grasp this because it 100% not biblical....

Try reading this link and see what you think:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

If you want more information, go here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

:infinity:

Please...do you really think anyone is visiting the bias links that you post...If this is the best you have to defend Catholic doctrine then you should simply be silent...Scriptures please.

biblecatholic is dong a much better job...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Please...do you really think anyone is visiting the bias links that you post...

Actually I do. I have received a few "thank you" messages. Not everyone is closed-minded.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Please...do you really think anyone is visiting the bias links that you post...

Actually I do. I have received a few "thank you" messages. Not everyone is closed-minded.

I'm not close-minded. I'm simply asking you to support you statemenst with scripture...so far you have posted more scripture to oppose pray to Mary and saints than you hve to your point. I did visit a few of the sites you posted...I just wish you were learned in your doctrine emough to use your on words and absolute scripture to back up what you say. No one could expect to go to any of these sites and not find information supporting the Catholic Church.

By the way you never explained this question. you simply avoided it...so who is being close-minded?

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

Huh…you must have a different bible than I do. This verse actually destroys what you are trying to justify. How can you twist this scripture into praying to the saints?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I'm simply asking you to support you statemenst with scripture...

Well, that is material for another thread. You see, I don't believe that all Christan truth must be specifically laid out in the Bible. I'm sure you already know that. I believe this:

II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source . . .

80 - "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age."

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 - "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit." "And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching."

82 - As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

SOURCE:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 2.htm#art2

 

[GraceBwithU]

The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

Matt 15:3
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
KJV

Matt 15:6
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
KJV

Mark 7:8
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
KJV


Mark 7:9
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
KJV

Mark 7:13
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
KJV

Col 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
KJV

1 Peter 1:18
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
KJV

 

[GraceBwithU]

cc,
This is your scripture that you posted to support prayer through Saints. You did not however post the scripture. You named it then gave your interpretation of it. But you avoided my question...humm sounds close minde to me.

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

Now with the scripture before you. Tell me who is to be the only mediator between God and men?

 

[A-Christian]

Now with the scripture before you. Tell me who is to be the only mediator between God and men?

ohh ohh!! I know this one. The answer is Jesus Christ! Finally, some commom ground for Catholics and other Christians.

 

[biblecatholic]

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

Now with the scripture before you. Tell me who is to be the only mediator between God and men?

There is only one mediator Jesus Christ. The mediation of Christians(who are on earth ) to God is through Jesus, as is Christian mediation of those in heaven. The Body is united to Christ and when any of the body(alive on earth or fully alive in Him in the afterlife) pray through Christ

 

[GraceBwithU]

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

Now with the scripture before you. Tell me who is to be the only mediator between God and men?

There is only one mediator Jesus Christ. The mediation of Christians(who are on earth ) to God is through Jesus, as is Christian mediation of those in heaven. The Body is united to Christ and when any of the body(alive on earth or fully alive in Him in the afterlife) pray through Christ

Amen...so what is the Mary and saints thing that CC wants to support through non canonical books of the bible and tradition.? Even though scripture plainly forbids such a thing.

 

[A-Christian]

Amen...so what is the Mary and saints thing that CC wants to support through non canical books of the bible and tridition.?

I think this is all blown out of proportion. Catholics that follow thier faith simply treat Mary as someone that can pray for them in time of need. Faithful Catholics in no way replace Jesus with Mary. They still go straight to the Savior himself. We just think that asking for friends to pray for us is a nice addition to our own prayers that we give striaght to Christ. We know that anything that is done for us is through Christ, but we also believe Christ listens to others as they pray for us in times of need. I missed Mass today because of the FLU, but typically we only hear Mary mentioned outside of scripture once during the Mass and it is not in the way you may think.

Now we may disagree about whether or not Mary can hear us and that's fine and being confused about it one way or the other, is certainly not grounds for anyone to be damned to hell. Some Catholics show Mary a tremendous amount of respect because of the important role she played, while other Catholics do not do much beyond whatever acknowledgement occurs during the Mass.
I don't even know who started this thread but I think most Christians have always held a high veiw of Mary, which any faithful Catholic knows does not take away from Christ. I would think that Mary is loved very much in heaven and doubt that God holds it against us that we think she is worthy of respect. In this day and age of the internet, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church can be read by anyone; yet we still see the most horrid lies and assumptions spread about Catholics.

I'd better stop, feels like the fever is coming back :-D

It's subjects like this that appear to make some people come off as so cold.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Before I quoted 7 scriptures that plainly show how "tradition" can currupt the interpretation of scripture. Talking tradition only identifies a person with the Pharisees.

I have also posted scripture that shows plainly that Jesus is the only mediator between God and men , (no scripture mentions Mary or the saints as being mediators.) Quoting references from outside of the scripture and speaking of tradition only further weakens the postision of praying to saints. If you can't support it with canonical scripture It is simply false doctrine and heretical. This is not to say that references other than the bible or not useful. But when they become your authority over scripture...well, you figure it out.

I am simply asking for scripture that states that the saints are mediators between God and men. How hard is that to understand? If you can give me that...you will have no need of quoting from refences outside of the scripture. Or send me to a website that supports what you can not explain through scripture. How blind do you think people are? Sure you will find weak Christians that will thank you. but very few real believers in the word of God will believe you based on a biased website.

The bible is common to all Christian religions. Catholics use it protestants use it. Why is it so hard for a Catholic to support praying to saints with scripture from a common reference?

I am truly trying to understand. But pointing me to bias websites, non canonical books and tradition is rubbish. It proves nothing.

This is the only thing that I have not seen any Catholic to plainly prove with scripture. Unfortunately this a VERY serious issue. It is not the same as believing in absolute predestination or freewill. It simply appears to break one of the most sacred of all commandments. If there is something in the scripture that plainly tells us to pray to God through saints then I will gladly retract what I have said.

I'm truly only trying to understand.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Matt 15:3
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matt 15:6
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mark 7:8
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:9
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:13
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Col 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
1 Peter 1:18
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

MY THREE OF A KIND BEATS YOUR FLUSH :D