What Most Christians Believe

[Catholic Crusader]

My Oh My that's pretty cut and dried. "There is only one church" are you telling
the world that unless your a member of the Holy Roman Catholic church you can't be saved? That your pope your virgin mother are necessary for ones salvation, that Mary is a mediator, that goes for the priests cardinals and the rest? they have the power to absolve sin, just like that?.. My Oh My* Where does that leave us? followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, correct me if I'm wrong but where does Jesus teach us any of this that you've put forward? And if you decide it's the truth then back it up with scripture.. In His Service, turnorburn

1) There is only one Church - One Head, Christ, and One Body, The Church
2) All that other gobbldeygook is just mudslinging. The Catechism does NOT teach that "..unless your a member of the Holy Roman Catholic church you can't be saved? That [the] pope your virgin mother are necessary for ones salvation, that Mary is a mediator, that goes for the priests cardinals and the rest.." All that stuff is the product of anti-Catholic propoganda.

I studied the faith well, which is why I left protestantism and became Catholic. What disturbed me most was that everything I had read about the Church was distorted, or just outright wrong. If you want to disagree with Church teaching, that is your perrogative. But when people make up false stuff so that they can have something to disagree with, that is nothing more than bearing false witness against you neighbor.

 

[turnorburn]

I can see that you've done your studies, "but" the reply was to be from the scripture. Let me ask you this without any offense meant, doesn't the Pope venerate Mary, her rosary, her icon "her statue"? and is she not considered a mediator, yea or nay? Oh and don't forget the priests, they have how do you say "Confessionals" where you lay out your sins for absolution? They do in Mexico maybe its different here?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I can see that you've done your studies, "but" the reply was to be from the scripture. Let me ask you this without any offense meant, doesn't the Pope venerate Mary, her rosary, her icon "her statue"? and is she not considered a mediator, yea or nay? Oh and don't forget the priests, they have how do you say "Confessionals" where you lay out your sins for absolution? They do in Mexico maybe its different here?

What you have done is thrown many things into a pot and mix them up. Now I must disect them all:

1) He does venerate Mary, as do I. This is just a way of saying we give her the high respect she deserves. It is not worship. There is only one God, the thrice-holy Trinity, and God ALONE do we worship.

2) We do not venerate statues. We venerate the person represented by the icon, statue, or other image.

3) The Rosary is a meditation on the main events in the life of Christ - the "mysteries" as we call them. Twenty key events, from the Annunciation, to His birth, His baptism, His passion and agony, His death and resurrection. It is the most Biblical prayer I know of.

4) Any time you pray on someones behalf, it is fair to say you are a co-mediator, "Co-" does not mean equal to.

5) Christ empowered the apostles to forgive sins in His Name: ""As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23)." This gift has been handed down through apostolic succession which is, sadly, a gidt protestantism does not have

 

[cyberjosh]

Yes, all prayers go to the Father THROUGH Jesus - (not TO Jesus. I am not familiar off the top of my head of a passage where Jesus says we are to pray TO Him, but in His name.)

That strikes me as a very Jehovah's Witness thing to say. I've even prayed to the Holy Spirt. Javier talked with me once on this and showed me quite well how the Triunity of God does not limit prayer as having to be addressed to specifically only one part of the Godhead: Father, Son, or Spirit.

Prayers initially sent to Mary, or your buddy Fred down the street from you all eventually go THROUGH Jesus to the Father.

One thing I've never seen said in the Bible though: That the deceased can hear your prayers. Even Elijah and Moses at Jesus' transfiguration were deceased, in the sense I mean. There is no gurantee for them hearing prayers.

Now. Is God a God of the dead or the living? Believe it or not, Mary and the saints are more alive in Christ than we are

Perhaps more aware and active in it, but the nature behind our hiddenness in Christ is our once and for all status in Christ, thus we are already seated in heaven with Christ. When he comes at his revelation it will then be reveal to us "what we will be".

 

[biblecatholic]

One thing I've never seen said in the Bible though: That the deceased can hear your prayers. Even Elijah and Moses at Jesus' transfiguration were deceased, in the sense I mean. There is no gurantee for them hearing prayers.

Rev 5: 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

2 Macc 15:7-16 7 But Maccabeus did not cease to trust with all confidence that he would get help from the Lord. 8 And he exhorted his men not to fear the attack of the Gentiles, but to keep in mind the former times when help had come to them from heaven, and now to look for the victory which the Almighty would give them. 9 Encouraging them from the law and the prophets, and reminding them also of the struggles they had won, he made them the more eager. 10 And when he had aroused their courage, he gave his orders, at the same time pointing out the perfidy of the Gentiles and their violation of oaths. 11 He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, * which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.

Zech 1:12-16 12 Then the angel of the LORD said, 'O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?' 13 And the LORD answered gracious and comforting words to the angel who talked with me. 14 So the angel who talked with me said to me, 'Cry out, Thus says the LORD of hosts: I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion. 15 And I am very angry with the nations that are at ease; for while I was angry but a little they furthered the disaster. 16 Therefore, thus says the LORD, I have returned to Jerusalem with compassion; my house shall be built in it, says the LORD of hosts, and the measuring line shall be stretched out over Jerusalem.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...One thing I've never seen said in the Bible though: That the deceased can hear your prayers.......

(QUOTE):
....One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding....
(END QUOTE)

Source:
Praying to the Saints
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

 

[turnorburn]

I keep asking this question and each time the

turnorburn sign goes up. Is the Roman Catholic Church the one true church
and if you believe that then Christians that don't agree are "heretics" And if that be the case what is going to happen to us. I understand your church has always seen someone accused of heresy as damned before God and man, true or false?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I keep asking this question and each time the

turnorburn sign goes up. Is the Roman Catholic Church the one true church
and if you believe that then Christians that don't agree are "heretics" And if that be the case what is going to happen to us. I understand your church has always seen someone accused of heresy as damned before God and man, true or false?

Didn't I answer this?

In my opinion, the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ. I will not shrink away from this belief for eccumenism's sake. But, having said that, the Catechism also says:

818 - "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 - "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... art9p3.htm



And even regarding non-Christians, the Catechism also says:

847 - ......Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscienceâ€â€those too may achieve eternal salvation.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... art9p3.htm

I also believe these things to be true. So, is that what you need?

 

[francisdesales]

the world that unless your a member of the Holy Roman Catholic church you can't be saved?

Where in Scripture does Jesus create another Church? As it stands, there is only ONE Church. Not a multitude.

The question you should be asking, since the above is obvious, is whether you are a member of that One Church... I sincerely hope God considers you to be so. But who can tell, since there is not another visible Church.

That your pope your virgin mother are necessary for ones salvation, that Mary is a mediator, that goes for the priests cardinals and the rest? they have the power to absolve sin, just like that?.. My Oh My* Where does that leave us?

In an unknown situation, as no one outside the Ark was saved, no one outside the Church will be saved. Again, consider that you may be a member in some imperfect and mysterious manner. The formula "no one outside the Church can be saved" does not mean that an individual Protesant is doomed unless he becomes Catholic - only God can judge that. It means there is no other Church through which God saves... Attach yourself to her, my friend, the more visibly, the better.

followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, correct me if I'm wrong but where does Jesus teach us any of this that you've put forward? And if you decide it's the truth then back it up with scripture..

First, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Secondly, you want me to back up with Scriptures that there is only ONE Church??? Did Jesus have ANOTHER group of apostles that HE told contradictory teachings so that there would be more than one church???

There is more than one "People of God"?

Are you going to ask me to next back up from Scriptures that Christ died on the Cross?

Rather than me posting numerous Scriptures, it would be easier for you to show from Scriptures that there is another Church established by Christ. Then, read Numbers 16 and what happened to those self-proclaimed "followers of God" who WOULD NOT accept Moses and the elders as their religious leaders.

Sound familiar?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, all prayers go to the Father THROUGH Jesus - (not TO Jesus. I am not familiar off the top of my head of a passage where Jesus says we are to pray TO Him, but in His name.)

That strikes me as a very Jehovah's Witness thing to say. I've even prayed to the Holy Spirt. Javier talked with me once on this and showed me quite well how the Triunity of God does not limit prayer as having to be addressed to specifically only one part of the Godhead: Father, Son, or Spirit.

I was speaking about the Scriptures, Josh. Thus, I mention that I cannot think of a passage where we are to pray to Jesus. However, as Christianity developed, it became readily apparent that Jesus is God and is worthy of all praise and honor that we would give the Godhead or the Father separately. One must be careful, however, that we do not fall into the trap of tritheism...

Prayers initially sent to Mary, or your buddy Fred down the street from you all eventually go THROUGH Jesus to the Father.

One thing I've never seen said in the Bible though: That the deceased can hear your prayers. Even Elijah and Moses at Jesus' transfiguration were deceased, in the sense I mean. There is no gurantee for them hearing prayers.

But they did speak with Jesus and HE heard them. Consider that Jesus is God AND man. Whatever Jesus did as man, God did it as well. The Church has been explicit on this.

Now, why WOULDN'T the dead saints be able to hear us in prayer, when they are perfectly united to God in heaven? Does God toss those saints into another room when its prayer time? Argh. The problem here is that too many people think that life after death is just a continuation of life here. Paul and John both say this is not so. Being united perfectly to Love itself, how can the saints NOT hear our pleadings to them or God???

Perhaps more aware and active in it, but the nature behind our hiddenness in Christ is our once and for all status in Christ, thus we are already seated in heaven with Christ. When he comes at his revelation it will then be reveal to us "what we will be".

And so how does this show that the saints cannot hear us or do not care about us?

Regards

 

[turnorburn]

O.k. then explain this, during the time of the dark ages millions of Christians were tortured and put to death by your church.. second half of the question,
do you stand behind what they did, in other words like one of your friends said it was necessary? "Really" was it necessary to torture men women and children for not abiding by your churches teachings, not preforming that blaspheme you call the mass.. So I guess what I'm asking are you a part of all that and still say its a Christian church?

Regards*
turnorburn

the world that unless your a member of the Holy Roman Catholic church you can't be saved?

Where in Scripture does Jesus create another Church? As it stands, there is only ONE Church. Not a multitude.

The question you should be asking, since the above is obvious, is whether you are a member of that One Church... I sincerely hope God considers you to be so. But who can tell, since there is not another visible Church.

That your pope your virgin mother are necessary for ones salvation, that Mary is a mediator, that goes for the priests cardinals and the rest? they have the power to absolve sin, just like that?.. My Oh My* Where does that leave us?

In an unknown situation, as no one outside the Ark was saved, no one outside the Church will be saved. Again, consider that you may be a member in some imperfect and mysterious manner. The formula "no one outside the Church can be saved" does not mean that an individual Protesant is doomed unless he becomes Catholic - only God can judge that. It means there is no other Church through which God saves... Attach yourself to her, my friend, the more visibly, the better.

followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, correct me if I'm wrong but where does Jesus teach us any of this that you've put forward? And if you decide it's the truth then back it up with scripture..

First, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Secondly, you want me to back up with Scriptures that there is only ONE Church??? Did Jesus have ANOTHER group of apostles that HE told contradictory teachings so that there would be more than one church???

There is more than one "People of God"?

Are you going to ask me to next back up from Scriptures that Christ died on the Cross?

Rather than me posting numerous Scriptures, it would be easier for you to show from Scriptures that there is another Church established by Christ. Then, read Numbers 16 and what happened to those self-proclaimed "followers of God" who WOULD NOT accept Moses and the elders as their religious leaders.

Sound familiar?

Regards

 

[biblecatholic]

O.k. then explain this, during the time of the dark ages millions of Christians were tortured and put to death by your church

Where do you get your facts???Millions are you kidding????..

second half of the question,
do you stand behind what they did, in other words like one of your friends said it was necessary?

The Inquisition was necessary, there were some abuses but it was necessary. the abuses are condemned and should be but not the whole thing. And it was 3000 killed during the inquisition just so you have some accurate numbers.

"Really" was it necessary to torture men women and children for not abiding by your churches teachings, not preforming that blaspheme you call the mass.. So I guess what I'm asking are you a part of all that and still say its a Christian church?

How many have bad protestants killed people? Bad people do bad things. You know that the KKK was mostly Baptist? In the south how many of those who oppressed black people went to church every sunday and wednesday???? the vast majority... what about the Masons mostly protestants...Henry the VIII... Salem witch trials...King James was a homosexual? do you still consider the church you belong to "christian"? Jesus had Judas as a disciple do you still believe in Jesus? satan believed in Jesus, do you still believe in Jesus?. What about your personal sin, does that reflect on the church you belong to?.....If you have hated in your heart you have committed murder according to Jesus......what about the Davidic did not God still love him even after he was a murder and adulterer?


Now to me this does not reflect on your church(es) because men are sinners. I hate when people accuse and have the made up history about the church and don't even know their own history or even look at themselves

 

[Catholic Crusader]

O.k. then explain this, during the time of the dark ages millions of Christians were tortured and put to death by your church....

Untrue. Official goverment officials did that.

...do you stand behind what they did, in other words like one of your friends said it was necessary?

You cannot superimpose 21st century morals on 14th century people. Man has a bloodthirsty history, whether protestant, Jew, Catholic, Hindu, black, white, yellow.... ...it doesn't matter. I wouldn't own a slave either, but can I fault Thomas Jefferson for owning them? No, because that was the norm then. No historical figure could stand up to that kind of scrutiny.

 

[turnorburn]

Your wearing me out from asking the same question again and again. I asked about "you" and "your" church, not the Baptists the KKK and the rest of the etc s', so I'll ask again.
Do "you" adhere to the Catholic church and her teachings? Oh, where did you get the idea those Inquisitions never happened? when the Vatican has all of the records of it in their vault down under Vatican city. Just go to your nearest Jesuit and ask for the tour. I'm not trying to box you into a corner, its a matter of principle, a genuine concern for your life, Salvation is a gift of God, he paid for yours with his life so that you would have life and life more abundant. Why did that pope say there was no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Your wearing me out from asking the same question again and again. I asked about "you" and "your" church, not the Baptists the KKK and the rest of the etc s', so I'll ask again.
Do "you" adhere to the Catholic church and her teachings?

Yes

Oh, where did you get the idea those Inquisitions never happened?

I never said they didn't happen.

...the Vatican has all of the records of it in their vault down under Vatican city. Just go to your nearest Jesuit and ask for the tour.

Been to the Vatican. Its great. You oughtta go sometime.

I'm not trying to box you into a corner, its a matter of principle, a genuine concern for your life, Salvation is a gift of God, he paid for yours with his life so that you would have life and life more abundant. Why did that pope say there was no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church?

Because there isn't. Those who are saved who are not Catholics are saved by virtue of Christ and His Church, whether they realize it or not.

Do I have to repeat my post? Okay, I will:

818 - "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 - "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... art9p3.htm



And even regarding non-Christians, the Catechism also says:

847 - ......Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscienceâ€â€those too may achieve eternal salvation.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... art9p3.htm

I also believe these things to be true. So, is that what you need?

 

[turnorburn]

With all of the information you've provided, I felt it only fair to post but a speck
of mine. This came from that book you so vehemently deny as a bunch of lies, well lets examine a few lines shall we? O.k. good*


Daniel Rambaut, of Vilario, the father of a numerous family, was apprehended, and, with several others, committed to prison, in the jail of Paysana. Here he was visited by several priests, who with continual importunities did all they could to persuade him to renounce the Protestant religion and turn papist; but this he peremptorily refused, and the priests finding his resolution, pretended to pity his numerous family, and told him that he might yet have his life, if he would subscribe to the belief of the following articles:

1. The real presence of the host.
2. Transubstantiation.
3. Purgatory.
4. The pope's infallibility.
5. That masses said for the dead will release souls from purgatory.
6. That praying to saints will procure the remission of sins.
M. Rambaut told the priests that neither his religion, his understanding, nor his conscience, would suffer him to subscribe to any of the articles, for the following reasons:

1. That to believe the real presence in the host, is a shocking union of both blasphemy and idolatry.
2. That to fancy the words of consecration perform what the papists call transubstantiation, by converting the wafer and wine into the real and identical body and blood of Christ, which was crucified, and which afterward ascended into heaven, is too gross an absurdity for even a child to believe, who was come to the least glimmering of reason; and that nothing but the most blind superstition could make the Roman Catholics put a confidence in anything so completely ridiculous.
3. That the doctrine of purgatory was more inconsistent and absurd than a fairy tale.
4. That the pope's being infallible was an impossibility, and the pope arrogantly laid claim to what could belong to God only, as a perfect being.
5. That saying Masses for the dead was ridiculous, and only meant to keep up a belief in the fable of purgatory, as the fate of all is finally decided, on the departure of the soul from the body.
6. That praying to saints for the remission of sins is misplacing adoration; as the saints themselves have occasion for an intercessor in Christ. Therefore, as God only can pardon our errors, we ought to sue to him alone for pardon.
The priests were so highly offended at M. Rambaut's answers to the articles to which they would have had him subscribe, that they determined to shake his resolution by the most cruel method imaginable: they ordered one joint of his finger to be cut off every day until all his fingers were gone: they then proceeded in the same manner with his toes; afterward they alternately cut off, daily, a hand and a foot; but finding that he bore his sufferings with the most admirable patience, increased both in fortitude and resignation, and maintained his faith with steadfast resolution and unshaken constancy they stabbed him to the heart, and then gave his body to be devoured by the dogs.

And you freely admit that you believe your teachers in the church. Have you ever questioned one of them or are they infallible?

 

[francisdesales]

O.k. then explain this, during the time of the dark ages millions of Christians were tortured and put to death by your church..

Pulp fiction, pure and simple... Propaganda put forth by the Protestants to justify their continued separation from Christ's Body. I have read SECULAR histories of the period, and I have no clue where they get "millions of Christians were tortured and put to death" garbage, except that it is MADE UP.

Do you stand behind what they did, in other words like one of your friends said it was necessary? "Really" was it necessary to torture men women and children for not abiding by your churches teachings, not preforming that blaspheme you call the mass.. So I guess what I'm asking are you a part of all that and still say its a Christian church?

Perhaps you should ask the English "reformers" who performed drawing and quartering of Catholic priests or people who even attempted to hide such people. Do you even KNOW what "draw and quarter" means, my GOD! England was once entirely Catholic - and the "reformation" in England had very little to do with theology, my friend. Maybe you should speak with Calvin and ask HIM what happened in Geneva. NO Pope ever dared to set up a form of government and foist his sick theocracy upon a people as he did. In ONE generation! Or better yet, what was going through Luther's mind when he was directly involved in the ruthless putdown of the Peasant Uprisings in Germany? Oh, yea, free us from the Roman Pope, but DO NOT expect to be freed from the German "pope". Religious freedom in Germany was a misnomer. Or closer to home, what were the Calvinist Puritans thinking while burning perfectly innocent ladies because they were "witches"? Superstitious and overly excited Protestants at work, no doubt...

Please. Have enough sense to admit that there were people with power who went too far - but these excesses by individuals cannot be wholly blamed upon the organization that they came from. No doubt, their were loving Protesants in England, Germany, Switzerland, and Boston.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Daniel Rambaut, of Vilario, the father of a numerous family, was apprehended, and, with several others, committed to prison, in the jail of Paysana. Here he was visited by several priests, who with continual importunities did all they could to persuade him to renounce the Protestant religion and turn papist; but this he peremptorily refused, and the priests finding his resolution, pretended to pity his numerous family, and told him that he might yet have his life, if he would subscribe to the belief of the following articles:

Yes, a terrifying ordeal for this heretic...

It is really easy to judge people using our own mentality and societal ideals. Before you judge too quickly, consider this...

First, these "Inquisitors" actually BELIEVED they were trying to save the soul of this individual. Recall, the BIG picture is our eternal destiny, not the suffering we undergo today. With that mentality, one can see, to a degree, how they were able to torture someone with the end result of bringing one's soul to salvation. Now, the Church teaches that "the end does NOT justifiy the means". This teaching was obviously not well-adhered to during the Inquisition...

Secondly, are WE so innocent and holy that we can toss condemnation upon people of other ERAS? What would THEY say about euthanasia and abortion and contraception? No doubt, I hit upon one that you probably are not adverse to. THEY would consider you "un-Christian" for practicing or even being neutral about any of these attacks upon life. What right do WE have of condemning another age and their way of life when WE, despite our technology and knowledge and foresight - STILL cannot feed people in our country, MILLIONS. Have a divorce rate of 50%. Have disgusting forms of entertainment that is hardly censured. Really. Are we in a position to judge men who used "evil" means to save a soul? At least there was SOME justified reason. What reason do we have for aborting children? Because we want to buy a new car???

And finally, I could certainly post very similar stories, even worse, of English Catholic martyrs, men whose entrails were ripped out while they hung from a yardarm still alive - and worse. Posting such things as that do very little to advance the desire of Christ - that they be one.

Know this. Christ established only ONE Church... There is no salvation outside of it. Pray that God considers you part of that one Church, my friend. Pray that your rejection is based upon "invincible ignorance".

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You're right: It is a bunch of lies.

I would remind you of the premise of this thread: The vast majority of Christians believe as Catholics do: The Eastern Orthodox, the Coptics, Traditional Anglicans, and others, along with the Catholic Church, account for over 80% of all Christians, and believe in:

Transubstantiation (although we all don't use that term)
The intercession of the saints in heaven
Apostolic Succession
Confession
Ministerial Priesthood
...and more

So don't try to lay everything at our feet. The reason we ALL believe these things is because they are true. Only that small group of vocal Christians deny these truths.

 

[stranger]

The total number of Christians in the world is: 2.1 billion. This is how it breaks down:

1) Catholics: 1.2 billion
2) Eastern Orthodox: 0.4 billion
3) Protestansts (Baptists, Lutherans, etc. etc): 0.4 billion
4) Other (Coptics, etc.) 0.1 billion

In light of these statistics, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians have their theological viewpoint represented in the main theology section, while the theological views of the vast majority of Christians - the Catholics - is relegated to some sub-forum?

People speak out of their experience and knoweldge. It just so happens that this forum was set up by Protestants. Some forums don't allow 'contrary views' to be expressed - on this forum the Catholic sub- forum was set up to help manage 'heated discussions' between Protestants and Catholics. There were also plenty of negative posts that did nothing to promote what Australians call 'a fair go' for the Catholics. I don't say that the present system is perfect - but it is an improvement on what it was.

And while I am on the subject, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians say what it is that Christians are supposed to beieve? And, more than that, among themselves they argue endlessly because that small group is divided into hundreds of "denominations" who all disagree on doctrines, all the while claiming that the Holy Spirit guides them when they read the Scriptures.

'Separationists' see other denominations and churches as having gone astray - so the fault always lies in the other camp. Changes in doctrinal positions happen ever so slowly if at all. Many simply do not have nor seek to talk to believers of other persuasions. I have said many times that the major Protestant denominations, which comprise the vast majority of Protestants, are in total under 10 - there is simply little to no communication between many denominations. That's how it is in the 'local church'. Church incidentally is an assembly of the saints and it is not physically possible for the saints to assemble in one assembly at the present time.

The apostolic faith conforms us to the image of Christ. This conformation will take longer in some people than in others. You have a Catholic way of interpreting everything - believe it or not there are things you don't see because of that interpretive framework. Something that takes you outside your framework is, for example, to think in terms of 'Jews and Gentiles' to give but one example and not 'Protestant and/or Catholic'.

This is not meant to be offensive, although I'm sure a few folks will be offended, but to me its a matter of perspective.

OK