What Most Christians Believe

[GraceBwithU]

And not just Catholics use the sign of cross, or prayer beads for that matter. Many simply find that these things help one focus their attention, not unlike the folding of the hands and the bowing of the head or as GBWY said, getting on ones knees. I know that my prayers are much more focused and I don't forget things when I use my prayer beads. I don't pray the rosary like many Catholics, but I do have beads that represent the different people and things I pray for, and yes, some of the beads represent 'rote' prayers such as the bead that represents the "Our Father" and the bead that represents Jude 24-25 which I include after I pray for my family and friends.

A-Christian, I would like to see a Catholic convert start a Catholic journey thread. I know that 10 years ago, I was as hostile to Catholic doctrines as anyone could be, now my husband and I have had some serious conversations regarding becoming catholic. I'm not quite there yet, and still have some serious issues with certain doctrines. But, in our area there are Mormons (out of the question), the RCC, and a bevy of either "Ain't God just our best guy, hallelujah" type churches where worship services have been replaced by 'fellowship celebrations' or ultra liberal congregations, like the Evangelical Lutheran Church which my in-laws go to which is seriously considering allowing gay ministers. Frankly, the 2000 year history of the RCC and it's stability is getting more and more desirable. As we are trying to raise our kids, it would be nice to have them in an environment of stablity.

But, the stablity has to be based upon the strong foundation of worship in deed and truth. To many non-Catholics, the issue is that we see a lot of what doesn't seem to be truth in Catholic worship. Forums like this help, and when Catholics such as yourself and CC and biblecatholic and the other RCC brothers come and share your perspectives, and clear up the many mis-understandings regarding the RCC, that helps as well.

Amen...that is why I hung in there so long
I did not what to be someone that simply condemns them from hearsay.

 

[A-Christian]

Many simply find that these things help one focus their attention, not unlike the folding of the hands and the bowing of the head or as GBWY said, getting on ones knees. I know that my prayers are much more focused and I don't forget things when I use my prayer beads.

That's pretty well hits the nail on the head Handy. Prayer aids, nothing to take away anything from Christ.

As far as the convert thread, I guess the posters could simply ignor others if they attempt to derail the thread.

One last thing Handy; it appears that you may actually have started a journey. Goodluck, i know the Lord may lead you in a differnet direction than I for some reason but in the end it will work out for you I know. Just stick to your siggy.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Any prayer to God that is prayed in any other name than Jesus will not go passed the cieling. It's vainity and ritual...nothing more. A simple waste of time

I agree. :D I was only trying say that the sign of the cross can be and has been used for more than prayer.

Kewl :wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

Brothers in christ,
From all of this discussion I have come to this simple conclusion. That all true Christians can come to unity. That is how it will be in the new Jerusalem. All true believers in Jesus will be of one mind and one spirit and only have one purpose... and that is to serve our Lord. Amen

My eyes are leaking... :wink:

 

[A-Christian]

Amen Grace

 

[Devekut]

From all of this discussion I have come to this simple conclusion. That all true Christians can come to unity. That is how it will be in the new Jerusalem. All true believers in Jesus will be of one mind and one spirit and only have one purpose... and that is to serve our Lord. Amen

Amen!

And certainly this is why I enjoy my time here at these forums, not to run around converting people to the Faith exactly as I see it, but by trying to arrive at a closer unity in anticipation of the World to Come.

I think there are very significant spheres of Protestants and Catholics who can experience a real sense of brotherhood without neccessarily converting to one another's understanding of the faith. It warms my heart to see us getting along in this thread.

 

[cyberjosh]

The total number of Christians in the world is: 2.1 billion. This is how it breaks down:

1) Catholics: 1.2 billion
2) Eastern Orthodox: 0.4 billion
3) Protestansts (Baptists, Lutherans, etc. etc): 0.4 billion
4) Other (Coptics, etc.) 0.1 billion

In light of these statistics, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians have their theological viewpoint represented in the main theology section, while the theological views of the vast majority of Christians - the Catholics - is relegated to some sub-forum?

And while I am on the subject, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians say what it is that Christians are supposed to beieve? And, more than that, among themselves they argue endlessly because that small group is divided into hundreds of "denominations" who all disagree on doctrines, all the while claiming that the Holy Spirit guides them when they read the Scriptures.

This is not meant to be offensive, although I'm sure a few folks will be offended, but to me its a matter of perspective.

Catholic Crusader,

If I may be allowed to comment on your OP, though I am a late-comer to this conversation:

Until recently we did not even have a Catholic sub-forum, we had an open forum which specified no denomination, and for the Apologetics area and every other area of this site that is still true. A few months ago, however, a special circumstance arose in which it suddenly became popular to discuss differences between Protestant and Catholic theology. This ignited a large series of controversies of which the number and force of the multiple threads being posted on this suddenly arising "hot-topic" quickly reached a point where it was causing problems for maintaining order on the boards. As a matter of duty and administration the Mods collaborated on how to solve this problem, and the solution was a fairly simple one that was fair and judicial, made for the benefit of the forum: We would create a sub forum for any such topics dealing specifically with Catholic beliefs where we could manage and keep an eye on it. This was done for more than one reason, and not for the often incorrectly assumed reason of "to keep an eye on those pesky Catholics" because that is far from the truth. Infact it was some contentious Protestants who were causing most of the problems, so the sub-forum was created for the benefit of the Catholics if they wanted to simply discuss their doctrines without being attacked in an such an unbriddled manner. In such a way we extended respect for our Catholic brethren and enforced some order to the boards. The prime reason for the area was that, given it was in a contained sub-forum, we could enforce specific policies against flaming Catholics (read the special rules we set for the forum in the sticky thread up top in the Catholic sub-forum), which included making sure no one incinuated that Catholics were not saved, or other such biased accusations of the sort, etc. Thus hopefully from what I have explained you will see that the Moderators made a good decision in creating this sub-forum which has promoted much more peace and also good discussion for Catholic specific doctrines on the site here.

As for its current size, you say "sub-forum" as if it were a term of distain. ;) Hey its only been around for a few months (as I just explained) and it takes time to make new threads. There is a special restriction where not just any one can post a new thread on a whim (because that's how the controversy threads that overran the Apologetics area before we started the sub-forum started), but we have created a sticky thread up top where you can request any topic you like, and it will be fairly evaluated and considered.

All things considered there really is nothing to complain about. I believe the Mods did the right thing, and I was put in charge as one of the Mods for the sub-forum because I tried my best to quell anti-Catholic polemic before we had this nice sub-forum, and in the same spirit I stick up for all my Christian brethren and will not tolerate bias. That should actually make you feel good, because I will do everything I can to ensure our discussions on these boards are respectful and orderly, for all Christians. I hope this has helped you assess the situation a little better.

Thanks for listening,

~Josh

 

[mutzrein]

So if I say that I believe Jesus is not God, you're not gonna say that I cannot be a Christian?

Well, what do YOU think? I'm not going to tell you what you can and cannot be. But the fact that Jesus is fully God and fully man - two natures perfectly joined in the person of Christ - has been a fundamental tenet of the Christian faith for well over a millenium. This issue arose with the arch-heretic Arius in the 4th century, and the Council of Nicea dealt with it. Hence we profess as part of our Credo:

...We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father....

Having said all that, I am not God. Only God will judge who and what you are. I do not like it when people say Catholics are not Christians. Why would I turn around and do that to you?

Thankyou CC. Yes of course I know the Catholic credo and one thing I certainly do appreciate is the attitude that you have shown in leaving judgement to God. While I do not agree with much of the doctrine of the Catholic Church, I too recognise that God alone judges the heart of man and therefore I can never sit in the seat of judgement saying, "this one is going to heaven and that one is going to hell."

 

[mutzrein]

No individual has any authority to decide what is essential and what is not essential. That is un-Biblical, just like Sola Scripture - a tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.

So if I say that I believe Jesus is not God, you're not gonna say that I cannot be a Christian?

No you are not a Christian if you state this and believe it. you belong to a cult or a false religion. Even Muslim believe that Jesus existed.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

Believing in Jesus is not just believing He existed. It is believing, who he is, why He came, what he did, and why he did it.

Well let me tell you what I believe before you make that judgement, coz it sounds like you want to condemn me to hell already.

I unequivocably state that Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

And I am an heir of God, a co-heir with Christ, who has received the Spirit of sonship. It is the Spirit of God which testifies with my spirit that I am his son. No doctrine, no law, no creed has made me a son of God, but God himself. And no man can take it away.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Thank you all for your patience....

No problemmo. Oh, and I think I called you "bro" earlier. Sorry. I didn't know you were a girl. LOL. :D

I'm not a girl the grace in my name is about Gods grace...I'm a brother. Lot's of people make that mistake. I've even had guys on other chat sites try to come on to me....

Oh. Well, thats two apologies then. Sorry

 

[Imagican]

http://www.chnetwork.org/[/url] ) assists hundreds of protestant pastors who convert every year, and also Rabbis and Imams. Their weekly television show, The Journey Home , is truly uplifting and edifying with each week's guest speaking about how the Holy Spirit has lead them into the fullness of Christ's Truth - the Catholic Church.

Your torture rant holds no water in the 21st century. Protestants become Catholics every day becausae they are attracted to The Truth.[/quote:06482]

And the SAME holds true with the OPPOSITE effect. There are MANY Catholics that BECOME Protestant each year as well.

Crusader,

Are you NOT aware that Christ accused His people of being OF THE DEVIL? Those that followed Him at the time of His ministry were MOSTLY just looking for 'something else' to follow. Yes, there WERE those that followed for 'truth'. But there were MANY that followed simply for the sake of 'following'. For the bread and fish, for the sake of 'joining the crowd'. Yet Christ accused MOST of being 'children of the devil'. Indicating that they had 'gone astray' and had LOST SIGHT of the ONE True God, their Father.

The WORLD is OF THE DEVIL. So it would stand to reason that the MAJORITY of the world would NOT follow 'truth' but 'something else'. Satan IS God to those that choose to follow HIM. He IS able to offer influence and 'feelings' to those that worship HIM. He IS able to 'talk' to those that accept HIM as their 'father'.

There is ONLY one way to be ABLE to discern the difference. And that 'way' is to 'forsake the world' for that which is offered from above. For those that revel in this world and partake of it DAILY, there is NOTHING offered from above.

Satan is well aware of the desires of the human soul. He KNOWS how to deliver that which we LONG for. And he is WELL ABLE to offer the 'sensations' that MANY confuse with 'true' righteousness. In other words, he KNOWS HOW to make those that follow him FEEL like they are doing the 'right thing'. The 'warm-fuzzies' that so many seek, HE IS ABLE TO DELIVER. He IS the FATHER OF LIES. His WAY is MORE enticing than that offered by God. For HIS WAY is that which pertains to FLESH. And so long as we ARE FLESH, then WE BELONG TO HIM. That is Why Christ accused His people of BEING the children of devil.

So, please don't think you are able to impress me with numbers. Or that there are NEW members each day. The Protestants are MOSTLY just as confused as the CC, (and I do NOT believe that the majority of the clergy are confused. I think that they are WELL AWARE of WHERE their allegience lies. As well as MOST Protestant leaders). It's NOT a matter of numbers but of the LACK OF NUMBERS according to The Word. For 'straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto life and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT'. And I would contend that EVEN FEWER follow. So the 'group' with the largest numbers would be the LAST group that I would choose to place my faith in.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Imagican, you remind me of one of those old western movies, where the guy keeps shooting at the floor and yelling "dance". Every time I answer one of your points, you switch up and reply with a totally irrelevant response then hurl a whole new accusation.You say the Catholic Church is large because they used to torture people. And when I respond by saying that your statement does not address the thousands of protestant-to-Catholic conversions every year, you switch up and start talking about how numbers don't matter.

Well, this ain't an old western movie, and I'm not going to jump every time you say dance. I don't like being a militant Catholic in these kinds of forums, but for YOU I'll make an exception and tell you how it goes: Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return. Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054 and the Protestant churches were established during the revolt of 1517.

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history. Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world with 1.2 billion members: one sixth of the human race, and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

So, there you go. Now, DANCE.

 

[Veritas]

where worship services have been replaced by 'fellowship celebrations' or ultra liberal congregations, like the Evangelical Lutheran Church which my in-laws go to which is seriously considering allowing gay ministers. Frankly, the 2000 year history of the RCC and it's stability is getting more and more desirable.

Ugh... yeah I know what you are saying handy. I agree the stability of the Catholic church is a good thing for the Christian world (despite disagreements I have with certain teachings). You know, not all Lutherans are slipping into the spirit of the times. I go to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church http://www.lcms.org which stays close to what the Word plainly says. There's also the Wisconsin Synod http://www.wels.net which remains very faithful.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Well let me tell you what I believe before you make that judgement, coz it sounds like you want to condemn me to hell already.

I was not meaning to sound like I was condemning you...I can't. You asked a question and I answered it by what I believe. The scriptures tell me that Jesus is equal to God.

John 1:1
JOHN 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

Jesus is part of the trinity of God. The first scripture plainly states that the Word was God. The second scripture plainly states that the Word became flesh. (Jesus)

If Word = God and Word = Jesus, then God = Jesus.

I agree that the concept of the Trinity is hard to understand. But it is simply the three forms of God. At least that is the way I see it.

Your original question was very brief and led me to believe you were implying that Jesus was simply a man, a prophet. Jesus is mentioned in many other religious doctrines as this. And they are not Christian.

 

[francisdesales]

Catholic Crusader,

Until recently we did not even have a Catholic sub-forum, we had an open forum which specified no denomination, and for the Apologetics area and every other area of this site that is still true. A few months ago, however, a special circumstance arose in which it suddenly became popular to discuss differences between Protestant and Catholic theology. This ignited a large series of controversies of which the number and force of the multiple threads being posted on this suddenly arising "hot-topic" quickly reached a point where it was causing problems for maintaining order on the boards. As a matter of duty and administration the Mods collaborated on how to solve this problem, and the solution was a fairly simple one that was fair and judicial, made for the benefit of the forum: We would create a sub forum for any such topics dealing specifically with Catholic beliefs where we could manage and keep an eye on it. This was done for more than one reason, and not for the often incorrectly assumed reason of "to keep an eye on those pesky Catholics" because that is far from the truth. Infact it was some contentious Protestants who were causing most of the problems, so the sub-forum was created for the benefit of the Catholics if they wanted to simply discuss their doctrines without being attacked in an such an unbriddled manner. In such a way we extended respect for our Catholic brethren and enforced some order to the boards. The prime reason for the area was that, given it was in a contained sub-forum, we could enforce specific policies against flaming Catholics (read the special rules we set for the forum in the sticky thread up top in the Catholic sub-forum), which included making sure no one incinuated that Catholics were not saved, or other such biased accusations of the sort, etc. Thus hopefully from what I have explained you will see that the Moderators made a good decision in creating this sub-forum which has promoted much more peace and also good discussion for Catholic specific doctrines on the site here.

Josh - and Catholic Crusader,

Being part of that "Catholic group" from several months ago mentioned above, I will say everything that Josh says is correct. Honestly, there were nearly a dozen Christians - whom I will not name, but most are not active here anymore - who basically turned the apologetic forum into an anti-Catholic site. It took a lot of my personal time answering all of these persons, 3-4 hours a day, although I certainly was not alone. I am happy to say that several Protestants often times jumped to defend their Catholic brothers against some unfair accusations. As it turned out, I found that some Protestants were actually closer to Catholic beliefs than I had first thought, esp. on salvation. Actually, I was quite impressed with how God worked on this thread and most of the more ardent anti-Catholics have left.

I would like to thank several Protestants who were very helpful during those times, in particular, StoveBolts, Unred Typo, Drew, Stranger, Veritas, Potluck and Josh. Thanks to them, I got the impression that not ALL Protestants hated Catholics.

The moderators, led by Vic, came up with a feasible solution. At first, I was skeptical, and noted that it appeared that we were being pushed aside - and Vic can vouch that I was a bit vocal on that count. However, after some thought and experiencing the new set up, I think it works well. Catholic questions do not take over the apologetic boards and we have a place where people can still ask questions and debate on Catholic particulars. I think it has worked well. Having lived through "life before the sub-forum", I can honestly say that it is not an effort to partition us or place us in an category separate from other Christians. Last Fall, the Apologetic forum was FULL of Catholic discussion. It was too much, considering that we are a small minority here!

With the new sub forum, one big advantage is that we don't have to re-fight these battles over and over, Catholic Crusader. A Protestant who comes to this forum can be simply directed to the particular subject and read the 4 or 5 pages of the "past battles". It may be enough to answer their questions and we don't have to re-address it. If not, we can start "round 2"! After some thought, I would say the Moderators came up with a fine idea and I am now satisfied with the results.

As for its current size, you say "sub-forum" as if it were a term of distain. ;) Hey its only been around for a few months (as I just explained) and it takes time to make new threads. There is a special restriction where not just any one can post a new thread on a whim (because that's how the controversy threads that overran the Apologetics area before we started the sub-forum started), but we have created a sticky thread up top where you can request any topic you like, and it will be fairly evaluated and considered.

Yes, Josh is correct. "We" took over the whole Apologetic site, and it was unfair to people who wanted to discuss "non-catholic" issues.

All things considered there really is nothing to complain about. I believe the Mods did the right thing, and I was put in charge as one of the Mods for the sub-forum because I tried my best to quell anti-Catholic polemic before we had this nice sub-forum, and in the same spirit I stick up for all my Christian brethren and will not tolerate bias. That should actually make you feel good, because I will do everything I can to ensure our discussions on these boards are respectful and orderly, for all Christians. I hope this has helped you assess the situation a little better.

You, Vic and Potluck have done an excellent job monitoring these forums. They have really been fair and even-handed. Keep up the good work.

Brother in Christ,

Joe

 

[Imagican]

Imagican, you remind me of one of those old western movies, where the guy keeps shooting at the floor and yelling "dance". Every time I answer one of your points, you switch up and reply with a totally irrelevant response then hurl a whole new accusation.You say the Catholic Church is large because they used to torture people. And when I respond by saying that your statement does not address the thousands of protestant-to-Catholic conversions every year, you switch up and start talking about how numbers don't matter.

Well, this ain't an old western movie, and I'm not going to jump every time you say dance. I don't like being a militant Catholic ( why not, that is EXACTLY how it functioned for well over a thousand years) in these kinds of forums, but for YOU I'll make an exception and tell you how it goes: Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return. Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054 and the Protestant churches were established during the revolt of 1517.

If you take what I offer OUT OF CONTEXT then I guess it would APPEAR as you offer. But, if you FOLLOW what I am stating in it's CONTEXT then it makes PERFECT sense.

The CC GAINED it's influence in the past by the strength that it garnered from EMPERORS and Kings, (their armies). That is HOW it BECAME the LARGEST denomination on the planet.

Becuase of the amount of TIME we are referning to here, the CC had ENOUGH to secure itself in the minds and hearts of MANY.

It's pretty simple really. If you witnessed whole villages destroyed and ANYONE in them that disagreed with those capable of DOING the destroying, HOW MANY GENERATIONS do you 'believe' it would TAKE in order to HAVE the adults TEACHING their children WHATEVER you stated in order to simply 'preserve' their children or protect them from the consequences of 'speaking out'? This is EXACTLY HOW the CC BECAME the MAJOR denomination that it is today, (so far as NUMBERS are concerned).

Now, NUMBERS really DON'T dictate TRUTH. Regardless of HOW MANY followers an organization HAS, this is NO INDICATION of TRUTH. For the WORLD 'belongs' to SATAN. HE HAS MORE FOLLOWERS than ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION. And MIGHT does NOT dictate TRUTH either.

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history. Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG. The CC may have been the ONLY church that IT recognized in the these years to which you refer. But there have ALWAYS been those that REJECTED it's teachings. In this respect you are being WHOLY untruthful. Just because the CC was able to destroy the writtings of those that disputed their teachings does NOT negate the FACT that they existed. Nice try though. Destroy the history and you can MAKE IT WHAT YOU WILL.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world 1.2 members: one sixth of the human race, and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

NO, for MOST of over a THOUSAND YEARS the CC had the power of authority to FORCE it's beliefs upon ALL those under their control. And you COMPLETELY ignore all the schism involved within this church. It has altered and changed it's possition MORE than all the Protestant denoms combined. It HAS evolved into it's present state and has NOT 'always' been as we see it today. This is MORE misinformation. All one need do is a 'cursory' study of this organization to PLAINLY see that it has NEVER maintained ANY sort of coherance except in a few of it's basic dogma. The rest has been a continous evolutionary state even to the present.

There have been times that there were OVER THREE PEOPLE vying for the SAME position of POPE. Yet the CC teaches that it can ONLY be through succession of apostleship that the Pope exists. Yet in the past there have been NUMEROUS individuals CLAIMING to be THE ONE at the SAME time. Rediculous concept of perpetuity. You may 'believe it' but history offers a much different 'story' than that offered by the CC.
So, there you go. Now, DANCE.

How's that. You know how to 'two step'?
MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

How's that. You know how to 'two step'?

Well, I do see that you added your own words to mine in the quote - kinda like Martin Luther did when he added the word "alone" to his German Bible translation so that it would read that you are saved by faith alone. No, your post is not suprising (and it is not correct either). :D

(and I don't dance with men)

 

[Vic C.]

LOL... ok boys, MEC and CC behave yourselves or it's... NO SOUP FOR YOU- TWO WEEKS. 8-)

Josh, great post.

Joe,

With the new sub forum, one big advantage is that we don't have to re-fight these battles over and over, Catholic Crusader. A Protestant who comes to this forum can be simply directed to the particular subject and read the 4 or 5 pages of the "past battles". It may be enough to answer their questions and we don't have to re-address it. If not, we can start "round 2"! After some thought, I would say the Moderators came up with a fine idea and I am now satisfied with the results.

Thanks for your understanding and kind words. Yes, we initiated the sub forum, but we can't take credit for it's invention. We took our "cues" from here:

http://www.ibelieve.com/Catholic_Discus ... 1/tm.htm#1

Peace all,
Vic

 

[Imagican]

And you are absolutely right Vic.

It's NOT a 'personal issue' Crusader. We discuss doctrinal issues and issues concerning history.

Since I DO NOT have any affiliation with denominationalism it is difficult for one to offer anything concerning them that elicits anger or insult to me. I sometimes forget that there are those that take offense to ANY offering that disagrees with their churches teachings.

As far as I'm concerned the Catholic Church is no more RIGHT and little more WRONG than the Protestant denoms, (you would consider me a Protestant simply for the fact that I am NOT a Catholic but I would beg to differ from my point of view). I am NOT of ANY denomination. I consider myself to be a 'part of The Body of Christ' and NEED no difinitive NAME to separate myself from OTHER 'Christians'.

And I am NOT the ONLY one that is priviledged with the TRUTH. It is availible to ANY that choose to SEEK it out. But the IMPORTANT thing concerning TRUTH is that there is ONLY One TRUTH. Either one accepts it or they are forced to 'create their own', (or follow 'someone elses' truth). I simply choose to follow where I am led through scripture and The Spirit. That my understanding differs from MOST is of NO surprise to me, (or you).

I apologize if I have personally offended you in ANY way. That is NOT my intention. When I speak of the CC I do NOT mean to PERSONALLY offend ANYONE. I try my best to offer historically accurate information. I INTENTIONALLY libel NOTHING or ANYONE. Just offer understanding as 'I understand'. Please don't fault me for that.

If the CC is following truth then there is NOTHING that I can DO or SAY that can affect it's validity. And in all honesty, forgiveness IS the manifestation of LOVE. The FIRST step towards acceptance and manifestation of that which has been offered. Forgive me for my intention is NOT to cause ANY to 'stumble'.

Vic, you know me pretty well. My offerings ARE valid even if not agreed with. I do NOT simply 'spout off at the mouth' without the 'work' FIRST being done in 'serious thought' and 'research'. My offerings may indeed 'seem' bizaar to some. I'm quite sure that the words offered by ANY of the prophets or apostles SEEMED just as bizaar to 'others' at the time they were offered. Otherwise they would NOT have been ridiculed and spat upon for their words. The world has a difficult time accepting or understanding 'truth'. That is AGAINST it's nature and it comes as no surprise that FEW are willing to digest it when offered.

Suffice is to say that I am WELL aware that my offerings ARE different than most. For MOST in this day and age have become 'lukewarm' in their 'fight'. Choosing to 'just get along' rather than disrupt the 'flow'. But WHERE would we be RIGHT NOW if this path was that chosen by those that were WiLLING to suffer the consequences in order to perform God's Will? If Christ had taken that attiutude we would STILL all be facing DEATH.

So, once more, Catholic Crusader; I believe that the Catholics have JUST as much RIGHT to state their views and understanding as ANY other denomination. But I also believe that 'truth' should prevail regardless. And without such debates, many would simply accept whatever they were offered with little thought in regards to truth.

AS you would believe that 'my' understanding cannot 'stand' in the light of 'truth', i believe the same is true. If you or any other wishes to attempt to PROVE that what I offer is NOT valid, by all means, that is OUR commission. For there is NO 'truth' without discernment. The only rule that I would offer is that what is offered be Biblically varifiable. For ANYONE can 'SAY' anything and some convincingly enough to influence others even if what they offer COMPLETELY contradicts The Word.

My apologies folks. I am a fairly passionate guy who let's his 'passion' get in the way of his LOVE at times. Working on it though and instead of 'holding it against me', do us both a favor and pray for added strength to over come it.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

..We discuss doctrinal issues and issues concerning history...

Regarding history, I think John Henry Newman summed it up nicely when he said: "To be deep in history is to cease being protestant".