What rights have Christians lost?

[Lance_Iguana]

I am asking that becaue I really want to know what rights you guys think have been taken away? Destiny posted a video in CE that had a pastor talking about how America is turning against Christians.

I want to know because I keep hearing how America is taking your rights away and persicuting you.


I ask this because the Majority of America is; of some kind of Christian denomination, represented by pollitians who claim to be Christian, made up of mostly Christian Charities, the densist Christian population in the world, and still using the words Christain values when going after legislation.


Please, show me what rights you have lost.


I will comment, but I won't say your faith is wrong, I will just show what a non believer sees that you might not.

 

[ChattyMute]

I'd like to know too.
From my point of view, no one is persecuted because of religion in America.
Harassed yes, but I've only ever seen that happen to non-Christians.

And no religious (or non religious) person has had their rights taken away.
I'd like to know a situation where someone may think their rights as human beings were taken away.

 

[JoJo]

Off the top of my head, I would say one thing I've noticed is that my kids' teachers have lost the ability to say "Merry Christmas" to them.

 

[jasoncran]

what about the gay marriage states that force christians either to resign or marry the lbgt, i'm talking the justice of the peace. there's no religous excemption there, ignore your beliefs or be fired/resign

 

[Lewis]

I'll tell you what rights have been taken away, Christians are persecuted in the USA, when they speak out against things, that are against the Bible. Secular thought is the norm of this time.

 

[ChattyMute]

I'll tell you what rights have been taken away, Christians are persecuted in the USA, when they speak out against things, that are against the Bible. Secular thought is the norm of this time.

No, they are not persecuted when they speak out against things that are against the bible. No one is truly persecuted in America at the moment.
Christians have the right to speak out against whatever they want. However, there are certain situations where that isn't allowed, and not just for Christians. Working for a corporation for instance.
Perhaps you should provide an example?

what about the gay marriage states that force christians either to resign or marry the lbgt, i'm talking the justice of the peace. there's no religous excemption there, ignore your beliefs or be fired/resign

A justice of the piece does not have any religious connotations with his/her job. They know full well what their jobs entails going in, and religious beliefs are not a part of it.
Religion is not meant anywhere for the work place unless that work is for a church.
And a justice of the peace does not work for the church.

Off the top of my head, I would say one thing I've noticed is that my kids' teachers have lost the ability to say "Merry Christmas" to them.

First off, every teacher I know still says Merry Christmas. :o
And second, that isn't a right. The teacher has that right to say it all he/she wants to other Christians.
However, not every child is Christian, and not every child (or the child's parents) wants to hear/have their kid hear "Merry Christmas" all the time.
They have rights too.
For instance, I know a Christian who would be offended/angry if "Happy Hanukkah" was said all though out that holiday. She has the right to not have to hear it, and so do non-Christians.

 

[Lewis]

I'll tell you what rights have been taken away, Christians are persecuted in the USA, when they speak out against things, that are against the Bible. Secular thought is the norm of this time.

No, they are not persecuted when they speak out against things that are against the bible. No one is truly persecuted in America at the moment.
Christians have the right to speak out against whatever they want. However, there are certain situations where that isn't allowed, and not just for Christians. Working for a corporation for instance.
Perhaps you should provide an example?

what about the gay marriage states that force christians either to resign or marry the lbgt, i'm talking the justice of the peace. there's no religous excemption there, ignore your beliefs or be fired/resign

A justice of the piece does not have any religious connotations with his/her job. They know full well what their jobs entails going in, and religious beliefs are not a part of it.
Religion is not meant anywhere for the work place unless that work is for a church.
And a justice of the peace does not work for the church.

Off the top of my head, I would say one thing I've noticed is that my kids' teachers have lost the ability to say "Merry Christmas" to them.

First off, every teacher I know still says Merry Christmas. :o
And second, that isn't a right. The teacher has that right to say it all he/she wants to other Christians.
However, not every child is Christian, and not every child (or the child's parents) wants to hear/have their kid hear "Merry Christmas" all the time.
They have rights too.
For instance, I know a Christian who would be offended/angry if "Happy Hanukkah" was said all though out that holiday. She has the right to not have to hear it, and so do non-Christians.

Persecution was not to be taken literal, in this instance, but to just let you know, that we get shot down for taking up for the Bible.

 

[ChattyMute]

Persecution was not to be taken literal, in this instance, but to just let you know, that we get shot down for taking up for the Bible.[/color]

People throw around the word persecution too much when it comes to religion. Just my opinion.

I get shot down for just being an agnostic atheist. So what? It doesn't mean you or I have lost any rights by this. I certainly don't feel I have lost any rights by becoming a non-Christian, and I don't feel I gained any.

What specific human right have you lost?
What you described seems to me can be described in ta few situations.
One, it is a non-Christian not wanting to hear about the bible (which they have a right to).
Two, it is a Christian disagreeing with your interpretation of the bible (they have a right to disagree with you).
Or three, you are trying to mix the bible in with science, which doesn't really work.

If I missed what you are saying, please explain.

 

[Veritas]

I would like to define the term 'rights' first.
I think we should recognize rights are in fact, gifts.
Our nations founders stated it like this:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That endowment by our Creator is a gift.

Humankind's natural lack of humility and the minimization of recognition towards a Creator in a cultural psyche creates a culture of entitlement.

We tend to look at things backwards in respect to God's view, so I would like to re frame the question "what rights have Christians lost".

When rights are understood as gifts from God we begin to gain perspective on what has value and what does not. Many 'rights' as perceived by our culture today are not gifts from God at all. In valuing what should have no value, that which has value is discarded and often times desecrated.

Re framed in respect to a Christ centered world-view, the question really is: "what gifts are being pushed away".

So, lets talk about the gifts we've been given in America that we as a culture are pushing away.

Sanctity of life. This is violated on many levels. It starts with naturalistic denuding of the soul. Just the other day I was reading about extensive experiments done by scientists regarding human reproduction. Thousands of embryos are created and destroyed in the name of progressing science. If life is nothing other than a collection of molecules that make up a framework of cells constructed in such a way that it results in a autonomous human body, there is little intrinsic value in that. -and apparently less value in that human life depending on the number of cells of which it is made.
If life is viewed as a gift from God we know to value that very deeply. It is not something to push away or throw away. The experiments I read about are not done in America, but some people here continue to push very hard for them. In doing so they are pushing away this gift of life. A problem we already have enough of with the termination of unwanted pregnancies.

Sanctity of marriage. God gave us the gift of intimacy between man and woman. We have, as a culture, progressively pushed away this gift. First, it has been by the acceptance of pre-marital relations. It is the norm among my peers that a man and woman can share intimacy without a true recognition of that intimacy with marriage. It is being shared with multiple people which is a violation of true intimacy. This has now extended to the cultural normalization of behavior outside the realm of what should only occur between a man and woman. By doing all these things, we as a culture, are pushing away the gift of marriage.

These are just two examples of gifts our culture is pushing away, but they are substantial in my view.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Ok, I'll define rights as I intended to discuss. This is my topic, so I'll define the terms. What rights, from the bill of rights have been taken away from Christians?

 

[jasoncran]

I'll tell you what rights have been taken away, Christians are persecuted in the USA, when they speak out against things, that are against the Bible. Secular thought is the norm of this time.

No, they are not persecuted when they speak out against things that are against the bible. No one is truly persecuted in America at the moment.
Christians have the right to speak out against whatever they want. However, there are certain situations where that isn't allowed, and not just for Christians. Working for a corporation for instance.
Perhaps you should provide an example?

what about the gay marriage states that force christians either to resign or marry the lbgt, i'm talking the justice of the peace. there's no religous excemption there, ignore your beliefs or be fired/resign

A justice of the piece does not have any religious connotations with his/her job. They know full well what their jobs entails going in, and religious beliefs are not a part of it.
Religion is not meant anywhere for the work place unless that work is for a church.
And a justice of the peace does not work for the church.

Off the top of my head, I would say one thing I've noticed is that my kids' teachers have lost the ability to say "Merry Christmas" to them.

First off, every teacher I know still says Merry Christmas. :o
And second, that isn't a right. The teacher has that right to say it all he/she wants to other Christians.
However, not every child is Christian, and not every child (or the child's parents) wants to hear/have their kid hear "Merry Christmas" all the time.
They have rights too.
For instance, I know a Christian who would be offended/angry if "Happy Hanukkah" was said all though out that holiday. She has the right to not have to hear it, and so do non-Christians.

this link is a little old but is related i will dig up "proof" on what i said earlier.
http://www.cmda.org/AM/Template.cfm?Sec ... ntID=16825
in florida the justice of the peace is called notary public and they can be anyone who works at a bank,secreataries,parlegals, and so on.. so if florida passed the gay marriage laws, many would be forced to either quit or violate their conscience, if they were christians.

a church that i worked at yrs ago has a secretary that's a nototary public, interesting to see who that one would play out as she uses it for the church documents and so forth.

jason

 

[Lewis]

Persecution was not to be taken literal, in this instance, but to just let you know, that we get shot down for taking up for the Bible.[/color]

People throw around the word persecution too much when it comes to religion. Just my opinion.

I get shot down for just being an agnostic atheist. So what? It doesn't mean you or I have lost any rights by this. I certainly don't feel I have lost any rights by becoming a non-Christian, and I don't feel I gained any.

What specific human right have you lost?
What you described seems to me can be described in ta few situations.
One, it is a non-Christian not wanting to hear about the bible (which they have a right to).
Two, it is a Christian disagreeing with your interpretation of the bible (they have a right to disagree with you).
Or three, you are trying to mix the bible in with science, which doesn't really work.

If I missed what you are saying, please explain.

You are a atheist, you know nothing about the Holy Ghost that rules us Christians, you look on the secular, we look on the Spirit of God, we will never see eye to eye.

 

[ChattyMute]

Ok, I'll define rights as I intended to discuss. This is my topic, so I'll define the terms. What rights, from the bill of rights have been taken away from Christians?

These are the rights I was also talking about. But I'll talk about human rights in general too. (I think it is pretty much covered by the Bill of Rights and the amendments)
Christians may have other rights among other Christians, but the whole world nor every country is completely Christian. So your Christian rights do not apply to all or in the government.

this link is a little old but is related i will dig up "proof" on what i said earlier.
http://www.cmda.org/AM/Template.cfm?Sec ... ntID=16825
in florida the justice of the peace is called notary public and they can be anyone who works at a bank,secreataries,parlegals, and so on.. so if florida passed the gay marriage laws, many would be forced to either quit or violate their conscience, if they were christians.

a church that i worked at yrs ago has a secretary that's a nototary public, interesting to see who that one would play out as she uses it for the church documents and so forth.

jason

And my argument is, why should there be a religious exemption? Every one of those people go into that job knowing there are some things that may "violate their conscience". ALL the people deserve fairness by the government. If you can't give that, then you shouldn't have taken the job in the first place.
Also, the justice of the peace is an officer of the court, which is of the government. You may have forgotten, but we have separation of church and state.

I agree that everyone has a right to not violate their conscience. However, when that interferes with performing your job, you are not giving your best performance. And your boss has the right to find someone who will.

About the secretary. Is she working for the church because she is a notary public or is she a notary public who happens to work for her church?

You are a atheist, you know nothing about the Holy Ghost that rules us Christians, you look on the secular, we look on the Spirit of God, we will never see eye to eye.

I was a Christian. So I do know something about the Holy Ghost. Maybe not as much as you, but I do know something.
Perhaps. But even most Christians I know agree that religion has no place in most things, especially the government, rather that is a personal choice that you cannot impose on others.

 

[GojuBrian]

If you were truly a christian then, you would not be an aetheist now.

 

[ChattyMute]

If you were truly a christian then, you would not be an aetheist now.

I don't know anyone that is an aetheist. /badjoke

Why? Because I think differently than you do? Christianity wasn't for me. Organized religion isn't for me.

 

[Cornelius]

If you were truly a christian then, you would not be an aetheist now.

I don't know anyone that is an aetheist. /badjoke

Why? Because I think differently than you do? Christianity wasn't for me. Organized religion isn't for me.

I agree. Organized religion is not for me too. Its not in the Bible either.

 

[jasoncran]

many businesses need notary publics to function, ie notarize documents and some churches own rental properties as well, and also have schools. the church i worked for was one those.

on the conscience clause, then should be consciensous war objectors be forced to fight upon a draft! i'm sure atheists do have them as well.

what if the goverment made the act of allowing the citizens(males) to kill their wife if they were caught in adultery legal. would you not protest!

certain acts are legal yes, but did you actually read the article and see for yourself.
i guess we could go the way of germany and japan and others countries and legalize all manner of evil, and it would be ok as long as it was legalized.

even thomas paine saw the need for the church(without respect to denomation) to be the "conscience of the state"

i have no faith in a major public uprising even if christianity was outlawed and the church, even if the public has guns, they would be no match for a trained and effictive military. The taliban held afghanistan even though the people had guns.

only an insurgency would occur with the few brave to defend the freedoms, or die. but an insurgency would only slow down the military not all stop it. the people would either cowtow and turn in the wanted and or hide from those looking till forced to tell. some would hide the christians and others

one only has to look at the german occupations and the german people to see what i mean. some jews were saved, many werent.

i hope we never find out. i just dont think the american people truly understand the freedom we have, save those that have served the military or the travel to the opressive countries.
look at the recent rape of a college girl with the crowd of over 20, and those that joined in and laughed and took pics.

just my thoughts

 

[GojuBrian]

If you were truly a christian then, you would not be an aetheist now.

I don't know anyone that is an aetheist. /badjoke

Why? Because I think differently than you do? Christianity wasn't for me. Organized religion isn't for me.

I agree. Organized religion is not for me too. Its not in the Bible either.

I am not a part of organized religion either. I am a follower of Jesus and his teachings and believe the Bible is the true inspired word of God. I stand by my last post still.

 

[ChattyMute]

If you were truly a christian then, you would not be an aetheist now.

I don't know anyone that is an aetheist. /badjoke

Why? Because I think differently than you do? Christianity wasn't for me. Organized religion isn't for me.

I agree. Organized religion is not for me too. Its not in the Bible either.

Yet there is an organized religion centered around following the bible.

many businesses need notary publics to function, ie notarize documents and some churches own rental properties as well, and also have schools. the church i worked for was one those.

Then there job is to notarize said documents for the church. Nothing beyond that. I still don't see how the person's religion or non religion has anything to do with it.

on the conscience clause, then should be consciensous war objectors be forced to fight upon a draft! i'm sure atheists do have them as well.

Rephrase this. It is confusing.
Are you asking if there should be a draft? I don't think so, but others would disagree. What does this have to do with rights Christians have lost?

what if the goverment made the act of allowing the citizens(males) to kill their wife if they were caught in adultery legal. would you not protest!

Murdering is illegal, so the government just made an unconstitutional law. I really doubt the Supreme Court would take this lightly.
Again what does this have to do with human rights you have lost?

certain acts are legal yes, but did you actually read the article and see for yourself.
i guess we could go the way of germany and japan and others countries and legalize all manner of evil, and it would be ok as long as it was legalized.

What evil is there that is currently legalized? Just because you think it is evil, does not actually make it evil.

even thomas paine saw the need for the church(without respect to denomation) to be the "conscience of the state"

I don't care what Thomas Paine thought. You're appealing to authority.

i have no faith in a major public uprising even if christianity was outlawed and the church, even if the public has guns, they would be no match for a trained and effictive military. The taliban held afghanistan even though the people had guns.

What in the world are you going on about?
First, Christianity will not be outlawed in the US because we have freedom of religion.
The public does have guns.
The army is trained, has bigger and better guns, and would likely kick the snot out of us.
What's the point?

only an insurgency would occur with the few brave to defend the freedoms, or die. but an insurgency would only slow down the military not all stop it. the people would either cowtow and turn in the wanted and or hide from those looking till forced to tell. some would hide the christians and others

See above.

one only has to look at the german occupations and the german people to see what i mean. some jews were saved, many werent.

This was decades ago. Yes, it was terrible. Yes, it was immoral. Still what point are you trying to make?
The Jews actually were persecuted, unlike Christians in America. Their rights as humans were taken away, unlike Christians in America. How does your situation even begin to compare?

i hope we never find out. i just dont think the american people truly understand the freedom we have, save those that have served the military or the travel to the opressive countries.
look at the recent rape of a college girl with the crowd of over 20, and those that joined in and laughed and took pics.

Yes, that was wrong (the rape). Many Americans do understand the freedom they have. You don't have to go into the military or travel to understand that we do. Just because you haven't met anyone who appreciates the freedom, doesn't mean there aren't any people out there who do.
What does any of this have to do with how Christians have lost rights?
Half of it was hypothetical.

I am not a part of organized religion either. I am a follower of Jesus and his teachings and believe the Bible is the true inspired word of God. I stand by my last post still.

organized religion - an institution to express belief in a divine power
If you go to church, you are part of an organized religion, whether you think so or not. Now if you don't go to church, then my bad.
And what gives you the right to say who is or isn't a true Christian? (Forgot to include this last time)

 

[Aero_Hudson]

If you were truly a christian then, you would not be an aetheist now.

I don't know anyone that is an aetheist. /badjoke

Why? Because I think differently than you do? Christianity wasn't for me. Organized religion isn't for me.

I agree. Organized religion is not for me too. Its not in the Bible either.

I respect that some do not find the need to gather in "churches" or to be a part of "organized religion". However, I think there are many references in the NT of "organized religion". Just read Acts for instance and that is proof enough.