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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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What Saved You?
- Thread starter AVBunyan
- Start date
G
Gendou Ikari
Guest
God saved me.
T
thessalonian
Guest
The grace of God has saved me earned by the blood of the pascal lamb, Jesus Christ, shed for me on the cross. It is saving me, and it will save me. I don't just look back to what the power of God has done in my life but recognize what he is doing and will do in the future as welll. This is the problem I have with your views AV. Too much in the past (not that we should not remember that). God is still working in your life AV. God saved the Israelits from the bondage of the pharoh. But did he stop there? No, he parted the red sea for them, he gave them commandments, he lead them through the desert and provided food from heaven and water out of a rock. Yes, they were to commemorate their freedom from the bondage of the Egyptians in the passover feast once a year, but he also was angry with them for forgetting all the other things he had done for them as well. God is working in and through those who love him AV.
Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
Another thing I don't understand is I would assume that you believe in imputed righteousness. We don't agree on our definitions of justification, but mine includes sanctification. Yours does not. That is fine. Yet can you say that a man who is not fully sanctified will enter heaven. We are told in revelations that "nothing unclean shall enter". We of course depend on God's grace working in and through us for our sanctification. I will agree (by your definitions) that one who is justified (using your definition) will get to heaven, but can he be in heaven without sanctification? I would hope you would agree that he cannot. Sanctification must be complete before entry in to heaven. Now how is one sanctified? Does it involve works? I would bet most Protestants wil say so. Therefore sanctification, works, must play a part in our getting to heaven. Yet it is not our works but once again God working in and through us. I trust God to give me the grace to bring this all about. Give glory to God for what he is doing in and through you and others around you AV. That's all I have to say, otherwise I agree with much of what you say.
Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
Another thing I don't understand is I would assume that you believe in imputed righteousness. We don't agree on our definitions of justification, but mine includes sanctification. Yours does not. That is fine. Yet can you say that a man who is not fully sanctified will enter heaven. We are told in revelations that "nothing unclean shall enter". We of course depend on God's grace working in and through us for our sanctification. I will agree (by your definitions) that one who is justified (using your definition) will get to heaven, but can he be in heaven without sanctification? I would hope you would agree that he cannot. Sanctification must be complete before entry in to heaven. Now how is one sanctified? Does it involve works? I would bet most Protestants wil say so. Therefore sanctification, works, must play a part in our getting to heaven. Yet it is not our works but once again God working in and through us. I trust God to give me the grace to bring this all about. Give glory to God for what he is doing in and through you and others around you AV. That's all I have to say, otherwise I agree with much of what you say.
C
ChristineES
Guest
God through Jesus saved me. 8-)
Less we confuse the differences between the doctrines of Justification and Sanctification, and then declare the need of a doctrine of purgatory; I give these two quotes for examination.
Bubba (formerly Beza)
“First, the biblical terms used to speak of justification, dikaioo, always means to declare righteous and never means to make righteous (see Lk. 7:29; 10:29; 16:15; Mt. 11:19; Rom. 3:4). Justification is a judicial, forensic term and is often contrasted in Scripture with judicial condemnation (see. Dt. 25:1; Pr. 17:15; Isa. 5:23; Job 34:17). Second, when speaking of justification the Bible speaks of the imputation of righteousness and not the infusion of righteousness (see Rom. 4:12, 22-24). Third, the Bible describes justification as something achieved in an instant of time. It is never described as a long process (see Jn. 5:24; Lk. 18:14; 23:43; Rom. 5:1). Fourth, the Scriptures repeatedly declare that all that a person needs to be saved is to believe in Jesus Christ. “Everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses†(Ac. 13:39; cf. Ac. 16:31; Jn. 3:15-16; 5:24; 11:25-26; Rom. 10:9; 1 Th. 4:14). Fifth, the apostle Paul says that God “justifies the ungodly†(Rom. 4:5). This proves that God does not justify people because they are personally righteous but because of the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness. Sixth, God’s word makes a clear distinction between justification and sanctification. “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God†(1 Cor. 6:11). Justification deals with the guilt of sin and the merits needed for eternal life, while sanctification deals with the pollution of sin. Sanctification proves that a person has already been justified but does not contribute one iota to a person’s salvation. Seventh, the Bible teaches that the good works of believers are tainted with sin and are non-meritorious (Is. 64:6; Lk. 17:10; Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:15 ff.; Phil. 3:8-9). This side of heaven not one believer is without sin (1 Jn. 1:8). Eighth, the Scriptures say that faith alone is the instrument which appropriates Jesus Christ and His saving work (Rom. 3:22, 25-31; 4:5-25; 5:1, 18; 9:30-32; Gal. 2:16; 3:11-13, 24; 5:1-4). After one is justified, the sacraments and other means of grace are used in order to help the believer grow spiritually (i.e., for sanctification not for justification). Ninth, God’s word teaches that Jesus Christ actually accomplished a perfect redemption for His people, the elect (Mt. 1:21; Jn. 10:11-29; Ac. 20:28; Eph. 5:25-27). “ Brian Schwertley
“When the thief died on the cross, he had but just believed, and had never done a single good work. But where did he go? He ought to have gone to purgatory by rights if ever anybody did. But instead of that the Saviour said to him, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Why? Because the ground of the man's admission in Paradise was perfect.â€Â
C.H. SPURGEON  MTP Vol 12 pg. 562
Bubba (formerly Beza)
“First, the biblical terms used to speak of justification, dikaioo, always means to declare righteous and never means to make righteous (see Lk. 7:29; 10:29; 16:15; Mt. 11:19; Rom. 3:4). Justification is a judicial, forensic term and is often contrasted in Scripture with judicial condemnation (see. Dt. 25:1; Pr. 17:15; Isa. 5:23; Job 34:17). Second, when speaking of justification the Bible speaks of the imputation of righteousness and not the infusion of righteousness (see Rom. 4:12, 22-24). Third, the Bible describes justification as something achieved in an instant of time. It is never described as a long process (see Jn. 5:24; Lk. 18:14; 23:43; Rom. 5:1). Fourth, the Scriptures repeatedly declare that all that a person needs to be saved is to believe in Jesus Christ. “Everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses†(Ac. 13:39; cf. Ac. 16:31; Jn. 3:15-16; 5:24; 11:25-26; Rom. 10:9; 1 Th. 4:14). Fifth, the apostle Paul says that God “justifies the ungodly†(Rom. 4:5). This proves that God does not justify people because they are personally righteous but because of the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness. Sixth, God’s word makes a clear distinction between justification and sanctification. “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God†(1 Cor. 6:11). Justification deals with the guilt of sin and the merits needed for eternal life, while sanctification deals with the pollution of sin. Sanctification proves that a person has already been justified but does not contribute one iota to a person’s salvation. Seventh, the Bible teaches that the good works of believers are tainted with sin and are non-meritorious (Is. 64:6; Lk. 17:10; Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:15 ff.; Phil. 3:8-9). This side of heaven not one believer is without sin (1 Jn. 1:8). Eighth, the Scriptures say that faith alone is the instrument which appropriates Jesus Christ and His saving work (Rom. 3:22, 25-31; 4:5-25; 5:1, 18; 9:30-32; Gal. 2:16; 3:11-13, 24; 5:1-4). After one is justified, the sacraments and other means of grace are used in order to help the believer grow spiritually (i.e., for sanctification not for justification). Ninth, God’s word teaches that Jesus Christ actually accomplished a perfect redemption for His people, the elect (Mt. 1:21; Jn. 10:11-29; Ac. 20:28; Eph. 5:25-27). “ Brian Schwertley
“When the thief died on the cross, he had but just believed, and had never done a single good work. But where did he go? He ought to have gone to purgatory by rights if ever anybody did. But instead of that the Saviour said to him, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Why? Because the ground of the man's admission in Paradise was perfect.â€Â
C.H. SPURGEON  MTP Vol 12 pg. 562
J
Johny
Guest
My family is Catholic so I've always believed in God. Jesus saved me of course. However, I think that Jack Van Impe's television program made me realise who Jesus really is and how I am saved.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Bubba,
Lot's of forcing Protestant theology on Catholic understanding in your post and coming up with a straw man arguement that attempts to make the Catholic theology sound foolish. The doctrine of imputed righteousness as I see it also creates more of a need for some sort of cleansing (i.e. purgation, i.e. purgatory) that protestants don't want to own up to and deal with. I will definitely be going in to more detail regarding your post but don't have time at the moment. Stay tuned.
Blessings
Lot's of forcing Protestant theology on Catholic understanding in your post and coming up with a straw man arguement that attempts to make the Catholic theology sound foolish. The doctrine of imputed righteousness as I see it also creates more of a need for some sort of cleansing (i.e. purgation, i.e. purgatory) that protestants don't want to own up to and deal with. I will definitely be going in to more detail regarding your post but don't have time at the moment. Stay tuned.
Blessings
Some individuals believe there is an intermediate state, in that they are not good enough to go to heaven and not bad enough to go to hell. With this presupposition a religious system has to be in placed to allow for their failures to be swept clean (spiritual position in Christ) with the full knowledge that they will only to be sullied again. Since no one in this earthly realm will ever come to the point of perfection, the intermediate place brings comfort and hope. The problem is that pride becomes the issue, in that I really am not depraved enough to go to hell and though I do perform good things they do not merit heaven, not realizing that at no point does a individual ever come to the point of not deserving hell in this life, nor is anything they have accomplish of a good not riddled with sin. Thus we are entirely in need of a Savour. This is the good news, in that Jesus paid in full the debt mankind owes. The Bible makes very clear that man justification is not depending on any works of man, nor are we kept by our works (sanctification). “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.†(Romans 11:6) and “For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?.†(1 Corinthians 4:7).
If Jesus is not our mediator, replacing our lack of righteousness with His righteousness, “ we are all as an unclean, and our righteousness [are] as filthy rags [menstrual rags]…†(Isaiah 64:4). Yet, these individuals nonetheless build their ladders of merits that lead no where and call it religion. The one who understands “Jesus alone†declares as David, “blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.†(Romans 4:8). Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to the believer, or deposited in what once was a vessel void of all righteousness. John cries out, “Who is that overcomes the world, but he that elieveth that Jesus is the Son of God.â€Â
In Christ, Bubba
If Jesus is not our mediator, replacing our lack of righteousness with His righteousness, “ we are all as an unclean, and our righteousness [are] as filthy rags [menstrual rags]…†(Isaiah 64:4). Yet, these individuals nonetheless build their ladders of merits that lead no where and call it religion. The one who understands “Jesus alone†declares as David, “blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.†(Romans 4:8). Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to the believer, or deposited in what once was a vessel void of all righteousness. John cries out, “Who is that overcomes the world, but he that elieveth that Jesus is the Son of God.â€Â
In Christ, Bubba
T
thessalonian
Guest
Bubba said:Some individuals believe there is an intermediate state, in that they are not good enough to go to heaven and not bad enough to go to hell. With this presupposition a religious system has to be in placed to allow for their failures to be swept clean (spiritual position in Christ) with the full knowledge that they will only to be sullied again. Since no one in this earthly realm will ever come to the point of perfection, the intermediate place brings comfort and hope.
Bubba, you in one breath say we cannot be perfected in this life. Do you admit that we must be perfect when we reach heaven? You expressed your believe in imputed righteousness. How do you answer my Billy Graham question above, which you have to date avoided. If a man gets on a bus with Billy Graham, a man who has lived a very sinful life, and Billy converts him and then they go over a cliff together, how do you explain that the one man has only imputed, unsanctified righteousness while Billy has led a life dedicated to God with much sanctification. Is sanctification a good thing but unneccessary in your mind or does sanctification actually happen after death or just before if it is not complete? Noone will answer this question in any adequate fashion.
The problem is that pride becomes the issue, in that I really am not depraved enough to go to hell and though I do perform good things they do not merit heaven, not realizing that at no point does a individual ever come to the point of not deserving hell in this life, nor is anything they have accomplish of a good not riddled with sin. Thus we are entirely in need of a Savour. This is the good news, in that Jesus paid in full the debt mankind owes.
I agree Jesus paid the full dedt. He earned grace for us. But that grace is not just God being nice and forgetting things. It is him working in and through us, giving us a new heart and cleansing us of all unrighteousness.
1John.1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Making us a new creation. Not just covering the sin like snow covered poop.
The Bible makes very clear that man justification is not depending on any works of man, nor are we kept by our works (sanctification).
Actually in Catholicism I agree by your definition of justification that it is of no works. Same with sanctification. We do not work to become justified or sanctified. Both come from the grace of Christ. If they do not however produce fruit in the form of good works then the grace went for not. It was resisted and growth does not occur. He who is not growing is dying.
“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.†(Romans 11:6) and “For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?.†(1 Corinthians 4:7).
It is clear you do not understand Catholic theology.
If Jesus is not our mediator, replacing our lack of righteousness with His righteousness, “ we are all as an unclean, and our righteousness [are] as filthy rags [menstrual rags]…†(Isaiah 64:4). Yet, these individuals nonetheless build their ladders of merits that lead no where and call it religion. The one who understands “Jesus alone†declares as David, “blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.†(Romans 4:8). Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to the believer, or deposited in what once was a vessel void of all righteousness. John cries out, “Who is that overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God.â€Â
What you miss is the tie between grace and works. We do not boast of our own works. But we recognize God working in and through us.
Eph 3:
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
Mark 4
[20] But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
Do you call his work in and through us filthy rags? Do you insult him in such a fashion? I would hope not.
Please do answer the Billy Graham question.
â€ÂBubba, you in one breath say we cannot be perfected in this life. Do you admit that we must be perfect when we reach heaven?â€Â
Thess, we are not and never will be perfect in this life. If you had studied the 1st set of quotes, you would know that Biblically we are perfect in the Fathers eyes even now through Jesus’ act on the cross in our stead.
“You expressed your believe in imputed righteousness. How do you answer my Billy Graham question above, which you have to date avoided. If a man gets on a bus with Billy Graham, a man who has lived a very sinful life, and Billy converts him and then they go over a cliff together, how do you explain that the one man has only imputed, unsanctified righteousness while Billy has led a life dedicated to God with much sanctification.â€Â
Neither Billy nor the other guy was sanctified completely before dying, but both were and are seen as perfect in Christ’s works. Again, if you truly had understood the Scripture I quoted in the first post in regards to justification, you wouldn’t even have used this analogy. Yes, Billy may have more stones in his crown then the other man, yet Billy would be acknowledging in glory that his rewards were gifts from God from whom they came.
“Is sanctification a good thing but unneccessary in your mind or does sanctification actually happen after death or just before if it is not complete? Noone will answer this question in any adequate fashion.â€Â
Sanctification (setting apart) is a natural working out of God’s purposes in that person’s life. Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.†The sanctification process causes the true believer to grow in grace, but know one except Jesus ever was actually perfect or ever will be in this realm. Positionally, spiritually speaking we are perfect in Christ’s perfection when born again. Col.1:12-14 states “Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.†A done deal, the moment we believe on the Son. After the death of a believer sanctification is finally complete and he is now glorified.
Quote:
The Bible makes very clear that man justification is not depending on any works of man, nor are we kept by our works (sanctification).
â€ÂActually in Catholicism I agree by your definition of justification that it is of no works. Same with sanctification. We do not work to become justified or sanctified. Both come from the grace of Christ. If they do not however produce fruit in the form of good works then the grace went for not. It was resisted and growth does not occur. He who is not growing is dying.â€Â
If you actually agreed with my definition of Justification, you would not need an intermediate place to become what you were lacking while on earth. You would know that Christ’s righteousness really was imputed to our account and every true believer is seen as perfect because the Father sees Christ’s righteousness in us. A complete transaction
quote;
“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.†(Romans 11:6) and “For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?.†(1 Corinthians 4:7).
â€ÂIt is clear you do not understand Catholic theology.â€Â
I understand that Thess believes in order to go to heaven the sanctification process has to make him perfect, thus the intermediate place must be in place for you. Because of your miss understanding of the doctrine of Justification, or the completed work of the cross, you readily incline your self to the religion that best fits your understanding presently. My hope is that you will go back to my first post on this thread and actually wrestle with the verses presented.
â€ÂWhat you miss is the tie between grace and works. We do not boast of our own works. But we recognize God working in and through us.â€Â
I understand, what Thess doesn’t realize; not only is God working in us, but Christ has made us complete in the Fathers eyes, so that a need for an intermediate place to become sanctified is unnecessary. 1 Corinthians 6:11 states “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.†Again, it’s a done deal in Christ.
â€ÂDo you call his work in and through us filthy rags? Do you insult him in such a fashion? I would hope not.â€Â
A bit of twisting going on Thess, you know that I was referring to our righteousness apart from Christ. When you respond to my first post of Scripture proofs of my persuasion, then I will respond to any further posts.
In Christ, Bubba
Thess, we are not and never will be perfect in this life. If you had studied the 1st set of quotes, you would know that Biblically we are perfect in the Fathers eyes even now through Jesus’ act on the cross in our stead.
“You expressed your believe in imputed righteousness. How do you answer my Billy Graham question above, which you have to date avoided. If a man gets on a bus with Billy Graham, a man who has lived a very sinful life, and Billy converts him and then they go over a cliff together, how do you explain that the one man has only imputed, unsanctified righteousness while Billy has led a life dedicated to God with much sanctification.â€Â
Neither Billy nor the other guy was sanctified completely before dying, but both were and are seen as perfect in Christ’s works. Again, if you truly had understood the Scripture I quoted in the first post in regards to justification, you wouldn’t even have used this analogy. Yes, Billy may have more stones in his crown then the other man, yet Billy would be acknowledging in glory that his rewards were gifts from God from whom they came.
“Is sanctification a good thing but unneccessary in your mind or does sanctification actually happen after death or just before if it is not complete? Noone will answer this question in any adequate fashion.â€Â
Sanctification (setting apart) is a natural working out of God’s purposes in that person’s life. Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.†The sanctification process causes the true believer to grow in grace, but know one except Jesus ever was actually perfect or ever will be in this realm. Positionally, spiritually speaking we are perfect in Christ’s perfection when born again. Col.1:12-14 states “Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.†A done deal, the moment we believe on the Son. After the death of a believer sanctification is finally complete and he is now glorified.
Quote:
The Bible makes very clear that man justification is not depending on any works of man, nor are we kept by our works (sanctification).
â€ÂActually in Catholicism I agree by your definition of justification that it is of no works. Same with sanctification. We do not work to become justified or sanctified. Both come from the grace of Christ. If they do not however produce fruit in the form of good works then the grace went for not. It was resisted and growth does not occur. He who is not growing is dying.â€Â
If you actually agreed with my definition of Justification, you would not need an intermediate place to become what you were lacking while on earth. You would know that Christ’s righteousness really was imputed to our account and every true believer is seen as perfect because the Father sees Christ’s righteousness in us. A complete transaction
quote;
“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.†(Romans 11:6) and “For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?.†(1 Corinthians 4:7).
â€ÂIt is clear you do not understand Catholic theology.â€Â
I understand that Thess believes in order to go to heaven the sanctification process has to make him perfect, thus the intermediate place must be in place for you. Because of your miss understanding of the doctrine of Justification, or the completed work of the cross, you readily incline your self to the religion that best fits your understanding presently. My hope is that you will go back to my first post on this thread and actually wrestle with the verses presented.
â€ÂWhat you miss is the tie between grace and works. We do not boast of our own works. But we recognize God working in and through us.â€Â
I understand, what Thess doesn’t realize; not only is God working in us, but Christ has made us complete in the Fathers eyes, so that a need for an intermediate place to become sanctified is unnecessary. 1 Corinthians 6:11 states “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.†Again, it’s a done deal in Christ.
â€ÂDo you call his work in and through us filthy rags? Do you insult him in such a fashion? I would hope not.â€Â
A bit of twisting going on Thess, you know that I was referring to our righteousness apart from Christ. When you respond to my first post of Scripture proofs of my persuasion, then I will respond to any further posts.
In Christ, Bubba
T
thessalonian
Guest
Thess, we are not and never will be perfect in this life.
Neither Billy nor the other guy was sanctified completely before dying,
After the death of a believer sanctification is finally complete and he is now glorified.
Bubba,
Your simply not dealing with the question though it is glaringly present in these statements of yours. You are gree we are not perfect in this life (something I don't agree is impossible but that's a different discussion). You say we are not fully sanctified BEFORE DYING. I would think you will agree that sanctification happens by grace. You say after death that we are completely sanctified. There is a cleansing of some sort needed, am I correct or not? What gives? I would hope you will also agree that Billy needs less sanctification than his new Christian friend. What is your explanation for all of this that you admit is true? Can a man who is not completely sanctified be in heaven?
so that a need for an intermediate place to become sanctified is unnecessary. 1 Corinthians 6:11 states
What you are admitting above is that there needs to be sanctification after death. Purgatory is not so much a place as a state in which we are actually made completely clean. "Cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS". OUr sin does not need to be just overlooked. We must be cleansed of it. There will be NO LUST in heaven. There will be NO UNJUST ANGER in heave. There will be NO LIES in heaven...... Yet you admit that rigth up to the moment of death we are sinners. We may lie, lust, get angry etc. etc. How obvious can it be Bubba.
As I said before by your definition of justification I agree. We are not justified at all by works. I am trying to focus the discussion on the matter above and so will not go in to this further.
In Christ we are seen as completely sanctified in respect to what the Father sees in the saints (Jesus righteousness clothing us).
Matthew Henry writes regarding 1 Corinthians 6:11, "How glorious a change does grace make! It changes the vilest of men into saints and the children of God. Such were some of you, but you are not what you were. You are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. Note, The wickedness of men before conversion is no bar to their regeneration and reconciliation to God. The blood of Christ, and the washing of regeneration, can purge away all guilt and defilement. Here is a rhetorical change of the natural order: You are sanctified, you are justified. Sanctification is mentioned before justification: and yet the name of Christ, by which we are justified, is placed before the Spirit of God, by whom we are sanctified. Our justification is owing to the merit of Christ; our sanctification to the operation of the Spirit: but both go together... All who are made righteous in the sight of God are made holy by the grace of God.""
Bubba
Matthew Henry writes regarding 1 Corinthians 6:11, "How glorious a change does grace make! It changes the vilest of men into saints and the children of God. Such were some of you, but you are not what you were. You are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. Note, The wickedness of men before conversion is no bar to their regeneration and reconciliation to God. The blood of Christ, and the washing of regeneration, can purge away all guilt and defilement. Here is a rhetorical change of the natural order: You are sanctified, you are justified. Sanctification is mentioned before justification: and yet the name of Christ, by which we are justified, is placed before the Spirit of God, by whom we are sanctified. Our justification is owing to the merit of Christ; our sanctification to the operation of the Spirit: but both go together... All who are made righteous in the sight of God are made holy by the grace of God.""
Bubba
T
thessalonian
Guest
Bubba said:In Christ we are seen as completely sanctified in respect to what the Father sees in the saints (Jesus righteousness clothing us).
Matthew Henry writes regarding 1 Corinthians 6:11, "How glorious a change does grace make! It changes the vilest of men into saints and the children of God. Such were some of you, but you are not what you were. You are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. Note, The wickedness of men before conversion is no bar to their regeneration and reconciliation to God. The blood of Christ, and the washing of regeneration, can purge away all guilt and defilement. Here is a rhetorical change of the natural order: You are sanctified, you are justified. Sanctification is mentioned before justification: and yet the name of Christ, by which we are justified, is placed before the Spirit of God, by whom we are sanctified. Our justification is owing to the merit of Christ; our sanctification to the operation of the Spirit: but both go together... All who are made righteous in the sight of God are made holy by the grace of God.""
Bubba
Bubba,
Throw me a bone. Engage your mind. I agree that all who are made rigtheous in the sight of God are made holy by the grace of God. That is not the issue.
You say that men are not truly righteous internally but their righteousness is an imputed righteousness.
You tell me that there is a process of sanctification.
You tell me that this process will never be complete before they die, i.e. they will not be perfected before they die.
I believe you agree that they cannot just be imputedly righteous when they get to heaven but must be truly righteous.
Statements you have made indicate to me that you would agree that Billy Graham and his bus friend would be at different levels of sanctification when they die.
I think you agree that when they get to heaven they will be completely righteous and completely sanctified.
Now what we have is at death you say noone is completely internally righteous and sanctified. When they get to heaven they are. God's grace certainly comes in to play so don't try to use that again. It is not contrary to the idea of purgatory. But YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT SOME SORT OF PURIFICATION HAPPENS AT OR AFTER DEATH. Correct or no?
Thanks for answering directly this time and not avoiding the issue.
Blessings
T
thessalonian
Guest
Dave... said:Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Dave,
Are these questions for me? Is there something that you think I believe that you think your refuting?
Thess, I am a person who believes that God is totally sovereign, both in ones salvation and his walk, thus we will not come to Him without first regeneration by the Holy Spirit, nor after justification can we do one thing good of a benefit to God, without the Holy Spirit actually working out His purposes (Philippians 2:13). So, having a period (intermediate state) to be made perfect, to be able to enter heaven was already accomplished by the finished work of the cross, and thus not necessary. I really believe if you would study the doctrine of justification (my first post on this thread) you would readily see that my position (protestant world) is at least feasible Biblically speaking.
â€ÂThrow me a bone. Engage your mind. I agree that all who are made rigtheous in the sight of God are made holy by the grace of God. That is not the issue.†that men are not truly righteous internally but their righteousness is an imputed righteousness.
You tell me that there is a process of sanctification.
You tell me that this process will never be complete before they die, i.e. they will not be perfected before they dieâ€Â
The issue Thess, is while the believer is on earth (sanctification) he is both a sinner as well as a saint. The flesh aspect of the believer, the individual will struggle with until glory, at which point, he will be whole (the flesh is now glorified 1Corinthians 15:42-44). Yet, spiritually as a believer the moment one believes on Christ He is seen as Holy (perfect)
"I believe you agree that they cannot just be imputedly righteous when they get to heaven but must be truly righteous."
No we would not agree on this perspective, we are truly righteous in Christ spiritually and that is the crux of the doctrine of Justification, all that needed to be done was accomplished for us by Jesus the 2nd Adam who actually kept the law that we can not do, though we have victories in specific area’s of sin, we will nonetheless eventually fail through out this earthly life. When a preacher, priest, teacher and etc., actually does present the cross in its finished work, the usual result is that someone will say, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?â€Â(Romans 6:1). God forbid, because the true believer has works that God has orchestrated before the foundation of the earth for us to do ) Ephesians 2:10, James 2:18).
“Statements you have made indicate to me that you would agree that Billy Graham and his bus friend would be at different levels of sanctification when they die.
I think you agree that when they get to heaven they will be completely righteous and completely sanctified.â€Â
I do not believe an any sacerdotal system (Protestant, Orthodox, or Roman Catholic) now or in the not yet (heaven), though we may have different callings or positions (i.e. President of the United States or janitor of the Whitehouse, Billy Graham or last day on earth conversion) we are nonetheless all parts of the Body of Christ, where each part is necessary (1Corinthians 12:12-26). What ever level of Christian maturity we may have in this life, it is a gift from God, for apart from Christ we can do nothing. As Augustine stated in so many words, that God rewards us for the very gifts that He gave us, when he commented on 1Corinthians 2:9-17 and the Judgment Seat of Christ. Which fit really well with Revelation 4:10, as the Church Triumphant casts their crowns before the throne of God? No levels, only Christ.
“But YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT SOME SORT OF PURIFICATION HAPPENS AT OR AFTER DEATH. Correct or no? “
I admit, that at death the believer is with the Lord and awaits his glorified body, but the purification was done once and for all at the cross for the saint, because he is clothed with the righteousness of his Savior. Again, as Luther ascertained from Romans 6, we are while on earth, “simultaneously sinners and simultaneously saintsâ€Â. As sinners we grow in grace and sin less on our pilgrimage, as saints we are in the ranks of the heavenlies positionally spiritually even now. I will end with Ephesians 1:3-6, in the hope that revelation occurs for you, in that God is sovereign and already our justification and sanctification has been in effect, even before Thess was born:
“3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, whic He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.â€Â
In Christ, Bubba
â€ÂThrow me a bone. Engage your mind. I agree that all who are made rigtheous in the sight of God are made holy by the grace of God. That is not the issue.†that men are not truly righteous internally but their righteousness is an imputed righteousness.
You tell me that there is a process of sanctification.
You tell me that this process will never be complete before they die, i.e. they will not be perfected before they dieâ€Â
The issue Thess, is while the believer is on earth (sanctification) he is both a sinner as well as a saint. The flesh aspect of the believer, the individual will struggle with until glory, at which point, he will be whole (the flesh is now glorified 1Corinthians 15:42-44). Yet, spiritually as a believer the moment one believes on Christ He is seen as Holy (perfect)
"I believe you agree that they cannot just be imputedly righteous when they get to heaven but must be truly righteous."
No we would not agree on this perspective, we are truly righteous in Christ spiritually and that is the crux of the doctrine of Justification, all that needed to be done was accomplished for us by Jesus the 2nd Adam who actually kept the law that we can not do, though we have victories in specific area’s of sin, we will nonetheless eventually fail through out this earthly life. When a preacher, priest, teacher and etc., actually does present the cross in its finished work, the usual result is that someone will say, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?â€Â(Romans 6:1). God forbid, because the true believer has works that God has orchestrated before the foundation of the earth for us to do ) Ephesians 2:10, James 2:18).
“Statements you have made indicate to me that you would agree that Billy Graham and his bus friend would be at different levels of sanctification when they die.
I think you agree that when they get to heaven they will be completely righteous and completely sanctified.â€Â
I do not believe an any sacerdotal system (Protestant, Orthodox, or Roman Catholic) now or in the not yet (heaven), though we may have different callings or positions (i.e. President of the United States or janitor of the Whitehouse, Billy Graham or last day on earth conversion) we are nonetheless all parts of the Body of Christ, where each part is necessary (1Corinthians 12:12-26). What ever level of Christian maturity we may have in this life, it is a gift from God, for apart from Christ we can do nothing. As Augustine stated in so many words, that God rewards us for the very gifts that He gave us, when he commented on 1Corinthians 2:9-17 and the Judgment Seat of Christ. Which fit really well with Revelation 4:10, as the Church Triumphant casts their crowns before the throne of God? No levels, only Christ.
“But YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT SOME SORT OF PURIFICATION HAPPENS AT OR AFTER DEATH. Correct or no? “
I admit, that at death the believer is with the Lord and awaits his glorified body, but the purification was done once and for all at the cross for the saint, because he is clothed with the righteousness of his Savior. Again, as Luther ascertained from Romans 6, we are while on earth, “simultaneously sinners and simultaneously saintsâ€Â. As sinners we grow in grace and sin less on our pilgrimage, as saints we are in the ranks of the heavenlies positionally spiritually even now. I will end with Ephesians 1:3-6, in the hope that revelation occurs for you, in that God is sovereign and already our justification and sanctification has been in effect, even before Thess was born:
“3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, whic He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.â€Â
In Christ, Bubba
AVBunyan said:If you believe you are saved then exactly what saved you?
God bless 8-)
I guess it begs the question. What do you mean by the word 'saved'?
"I believe you agree that they cannot just be imputedly righteous when they get to heaven but must be truly righteous."
Thess, I reread this statement of yours and might have not answered as I should in regards to “being truly righteous†once we arrive in heaven. 1Corinthians 15:50-54,
“50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. “
This passage tells us that at death we are made whole completely, thus even our flesh is now perfect. Remember Paul was speaking of the natural body and the spiritual body in verses 42-44,
“42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.â€Â
In Christ, Bubba
Thess, I reread this statement of yours and might have not answered as I should in regards to “being truly righteous†once we arrive in heaven. 1Corinthians 15:50-54,
“50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. “
This passage tells us that at death we are made whole completely, thus even our flesh is now perfect. Remember Paul was speaking of the natural body and the spiritual body in verses 42-44,
“42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.â€Â
In Christ, Bubba