What Saved You?

[mutzrein]

Mutzein,
Jesus saved us from the wrath of God, that we deserve.
Bubba

OK - are you equating being born again with being saved?

 

[Bubba]

"OK - are you equating being born again with being saved?"





John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Bubba

 

[mutzrein]

"OK - are you equating being born again with being saved?"





John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Bubba

I take it from that you mean 'yes'
thanks

 

[Bubba]

Mutzrein,
What do you believe in regards to;
1.Soteriology
2. Diety of Christ
3. The physical resurrection of Christ
4. Physical 2nd Advent
5. Inspiration of Scripture

Bubba

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein,
What do you believe in regards to;
1.Soteriology
2. Diety of Christ
3. The physical resurrection of Christ
4. Physical 2nd Advent
5. Inspiration of Scripture

Bubba

1. Christ atoned for my sin on calvary and I have been set free from the power of sin & death to walk in the newness of life that God by His Spirit has given me.
2. Jesus is the Son of God.
3. The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwells in me.
4. Christ will return to judge the just and the unjust.
5. When I read scripture I cannot help but marvel at the handiwork of a master composer, who is directing the symphony of humankind, causing each that he has gifted to play their part, but only to His glory.

 

[Bubba]

Mutzrein,
I ask that I might get a idea what bent you are. A little more clarification:

"Jesus is the Son of God."
Is he God?
"The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwells in me."
Did He rise physically?
"Christ will return to judge the just and the unjust."
Will He return in a physical body?
"a master composer"
Is the Bible inerrant in regards to the original language?



Bubba

 

[thessalonian]

Bubba,

Now why on earth would you expect him to answer your direct questions when you do not answer mine.

Thess, I am a person who believes that God is totally sovereign, both in ones salvation and his walk, thus we will not come to Him without first regeneration by the Holy Spirit, nor after justification can we do one thing good of a benefit to God, without the Holy Spirit actually working out His purposes (Philippians 2:13). So, having a period (intermediate state) to be made perfect, to be able to enter heaven was already accomplished by the finished work of the cross, and thus not necessary

I understand what you believe quite clearly. I wholly believe that we can do nothing of benefit to God without the Holy Spirit. But what you are not dealing with is the purpose of sanctification. You simply will not deal with this problem in your theology. Okay, using protestant definitions, which I do not completely agree with, but so we are speaking the same language.

As I understand your beliefs:
1) A man repents, comes to faith, and is justified. Some problems with that but let's just state it this way. At this point Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us such that, though not truly righteous (we're still sinners), we are seen as perfect in God's eyes and will go to heaven.
2) The man is regenerated and the process of sanctification begins by the work of the Holy Spirit in the individual. The action of the Holy Spirit motivating us to good works sanctifies us. We do not do these works on our own and cannot claim them as our own and boast of them.
3) At death we are not perfect but before we get in to heaven we are made perfect by the grace of Christ. I would think you would say that sanctification is completed by heaven.

Now the issue again.

Righteousness is only imputed at regeneration.
Even at the end of death you agree we are not fully righteous, sinless. We are stil in some respects snow covered dung.
When we enter heaven we are in fact truly righteous and perfect. Not just snow covered dung. Or at least I would hope that you would agree with that.

Now is it just the separation of the soul from the body that makes one truly righteous? If that is the case then what happens when the body is reunited with the soul at the resurrection of the body.

You still have not answered what is the purpose of sanctification? Is it unneccessary or optional because that is the way it seems? You have not dealt with the heart of the matter regarding Billy Graham and a new convert going over a cliff on a bus. They are not at equal points in the process of sanctification.

So, having a period (intermediate state) to be made perfect, to be able to enter heaven was already accomplished by the finished work of the cross, and thus not necessary

If it was accomplished 2000 years ago, then we must not need to repent and come to faith recieve the Holy Spirit? No this is just rhetoric that is avoidance of the issues between us. An imputed righteous person cannot be in heaven. His righteousness must be infused righteousness. Snow covered dung still stinks and there is not stench in heaven. Grace must be applied to the soul to remove the stench. I.e. what Christ did 2000 years ago must be applied to our lives TODAY. Purgatory does not contradict this any more than sanctification in the here and now, which you will not address in any detail does. Purgatory is about sanctification only and completely. There is nothing we can do for ourselves there. Start dealing with the issues between us face up. Engage your mind.

Blessings

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
I have engaged my mind; unfortunately you will not and maybe can not reexamine the Biblical doctrine of Justification where one must first begin to fully understand what sanctification means in regards to the believer. I leave you with an article if you are so incline to study. If you do study the article, and want to dialogue about it, I may consider continuing the topic, if not we are done.
In Christ, Bubba

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/ ... ust_10.htm

 

[thessalonian]

Bubba,

I read the article. I don't agree with it all (though some) but I understand it. It is same old same old what you have posted above. I know what you believe regarding justification. Why do your refuse to hold a discussion regarding sanctification and imputed righteousness? Why do your refuse to answer whether sanctification is optional or not before entry in to heaven? I agree that at the point of salvation both Bill G. and his budy are completely justified. Amen! I actually believe that at that point they are completely sanctified as well (infused righteouness). But that is not where I want to go with this discussion. Let's just say for the purpose of discussion that you are correct and justification is a once for all shot, I want you to answer what has been asked quite directly. Does one who just has imputed righteousness go to heaven with just infused righteousness? Or does he have to be sanctified so that he actually has a clean heart that does not even think about sinning? Is sanctification optional or do all have to be fully sanctified in heaven? Is it guaranteed to be completed before death? I think you have to say no if you are not going to contradict what you have previously said.

Likely the discussion is done because you don't want to answer my questions about SANCTIFICATION. Purgatory is not about justification and I want to talk apples and apples.

Once again key verse:

1John.1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This doesn't just sound like imputed righteousness to me.

Blessings

 

[JM]

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Justification/just_10.htm

I read that site often, good link.

The Geneva Bible has the following comment for 1 John 1:9:
(6) Therefore the beginning of salvation is to acknowledge our wickedness and to require pardon from him, who freely forgives all sins, because he has promised to do so and he is faithful and just.
(g) So then our salvation depends on the free promise of God, who because he is faithful and just, will perform that which he hath promised.
(h) Where then are our merits? for this is our true happiness.

John Gill notes: and a man that truly confesses his sin is one that the Spirit of God has convinced of it, and has shown him its exceeding sinfulness, and filled him with a godly sorrow for it

to whom God will and does make known his forgiving love; for to whomsoever he grants repentance, he gives the remission of sin; in doing of which he is faithful to his word of promise; such as in (Proverbs 28:13) (Isaiah 55:7)

and to cleanse from sin is to remove the guilt of it, by an application of the blood of Christ for pardon.


Peace,

jm

 

[thessalonian]

JM,

The discussion is not about "justification". It is about sanctification and imputed righteousness. (I am using the protestant definition of justification and sanctification). Can one ENTER heaven with just imputed righteousness. Is sanctification uneccessary/optional before one enters heaven? These are the questions that are not being answered. I'm not talking about "getting saved".

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
It is going slow at work and I am bored. In regards to your key verse, most of those I trust, in the sphere of influence I have, would say John is speaking to those who are not saved, check verses 6 through 8 out, 6 and 8 reads as those who have not experienced Justification, 7 are those who have. The ninth verse is the solution for 6 and 8 individuals:

1John.1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

â€ÂThis doesn't just sound like imputed righteousness to me.â€Â

Maybe it does now in context.

Bubba

 

[JM]

JM,

The discussion is not about "justification". It is about sanctification and imputed righteousness. (I am using the protestant definition of justification and sanctification). Can one ENTER heaven with just imputed righteousness. Is sanctification uneccessary/optional before one enters heaven? These are the questions that are not being answered. I'm not talking about "getting saved".

Hey Thess, I understand, but why are we justified?

 

[thessalonian]

JM,

The discussion is not about "justification". It is about sanctification and imputed righteousness. (I am using the protestant definition of justification and sanctification). Can one ENTER heaven with just imputed righteousness. Is sanctification uneccessary/optional before one enters heaven? These are the questions that are not being answered. I'm not talking about "getting saved".

Hey Thess, I understand, but why are we justified?

By grace through faith after repentance. That faith and repentence was even brought about by grace. Then the holy Spirit enters in making grace internal and sanctification takes place (begins to from your perspective).


Now, please anser my question.

 

[Dave...]

Hey Thess.

Dave,

Are these questions for me? Is there something that you think I believe that you think your refuting?

I was just answering the original question in a backwards kind of way.

Dave

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
This article is a bit long, but I didn't want to give web address because this is only a segment of a much larger expose of 1 John 1:9. The author is Jim Minkler

1 John 1:6-10 "The truth is not in us"
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Having fellowship with Him, walking in the darkness...the two don’t exactly go together, do they? Can you see the contradiction, not of behavior, but of essence? In other words, John speaks of something that cannot be, not what should not be! God is not in the darkness, so you can’t be in the darkness and partake with Him...period. The whole concept of walking in the light as opposed to walking in the darkness is a question of where a person is rather than how he is! So, therefore, if I declare to you that I have fellowship, yet I myself walk in the darkness (don’t forget what that means), I am declaring to you that there is another way to God through the door of darkness, and it should be obvious to you that there is no truth in me!
I know this verse is held by most to be one of the primary sources that declare that believers can walk in the darkness and fall out of fellowship with God. And in view of such universal acceptance, I know that I must sound quite irrational and insignificant to suggest what seems totally contrary to the obvious, but it is only contrary to that which seems obvious! Keep in mind that John speaks as part of a group of men that Christ chose to be His representatives, those who would stand in His place and continue to speak in Him. He says, “if we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darknessâ€Â, and not, if you say...as if he were trying to single out a few wayward Christians. And when he says “we†he does include anyone, but from the understanding that he is defining Christianity and not subdividing it; that is, dividing believers into two groups: those who “walk in the light†and those who “walk in darknessâ€Â; those who are “in fellowship†and those who are “out of fellowshipâ€Â. There is no such thing so he cannot be referring to Christians! If I claim that I am one of God’s children or that I have a connection with Him, and yet I do not walk in the Light (which is Jesus), but instead walk in darkness, then I have not even come to see Christ yet, nor my own sinfulness which tells me I truly need a savior. Then, very clearly, I am a liar and I do not practice the truth THAT I CLAIM TO DO!
Look at the phrase “we lie and do not practice the truth;â€Â. What did John have in mind when he wrote this? Do you remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 8 about the devil? “Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar, and the father of lies.†He goes on to say, “and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.†(8:44&55) Guess who had been claiming to know God? “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.†What did Jesus tell them? You claim to know God, but you are liars and you do not know God; instead, you are of the liar. And there’s more found in the phrase “do not practice the truth†in chapter 3: “For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.†(3:20&21). Those who do not practice the truth hate the light and do not come to it! Doesn’t this sound exactly like 1 John 1:6? Those who lie claim to know God, but do not know Him; those who do not practice the truth do not come to the light, but walk in the darkness. In view of this, how could it ever be suggested that this verse describes believers who stray?
John does not stop there, but continues his expose of those who have infiltrated the church where in verse 8 he says, “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.†Back to John 8. In verses 21 & 24 Jesus declared to His audience (infiltrated by Pharisees...they seemed to always be around) that they would die in their sins if they did not believe Him to be the Christ. In verse 32, He tells those “who had believed in Him†(v.31) “and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.†The Pharisees were quite indignant with this statement and are obviously the ones who responded, “we have never yet been enslaved to anyone†(v.33). How did Jesus answer? “Everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.†(v.34)! Who doesn’t have any truth in them? Those who deny that they have sin; those who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ! Listen to the damning declaration of Christ: “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. (v.44)†Now I ask you, even though we desire to understand what happens to believers when they sin, does 1 John 1:8 sound as if it could be describing a faltering Christian?
What “if we say that we have not sinned? We make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.†“And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.†(John 5:38). “I know that you are Abraham’s offspring, yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.†(John 8:37). Have you noticed that all of these references revolve around the person of Christ, and that in each there is a rejection of Him? In no case does it speak of the one who has come to the light, but is now having problems with his “walkâ€Â. Those to whom Jesus was so harsh have denied that they have sinned and instead have consistently tried to convict Him of sin (8:46). Read over these accounts where Jesus has run-ins with the Lawmen and you will see denials of both sin and Christ in every response and reaction.
So, how does one go about making Him a liar? For is the suggestion here that when someone says, “I have not sinnedâ€Â, this will actually make Christ become a liar? The natural mind may come to that conclusion, but then again, the natural mind enjoys swimming around in the pool of relativity. Only when we view this passage as being spoken by the representatives of Christ does the true meaning come forth. If I, as the spokesman for God, declare that I have not sinned, when in fact, the very name of Jesus has it’s meaning hinged to the saving of His people from sin...I make the very Christ I proclaim, to be a liar! Remember, Jesus did not come for the righteous, but for the sinners. How can His word, His truth be in me if I deny the very thing He came to do?
John is not describing some kind of potential reality here, he is presenting the absurdity of such a reality. It cannot happen! So...the obvious presents itself then. Why on earth would John be telling us of a hypothetical situation? But the answer should be equally obvious. So that when you are face to face with this hypothetical situation no amount of words will convince you that it can be true!
Those who claim to be in the Light of Christ, but deny having sinned are denying the very ultimate purpose and name of the Christ in whose light they are supposedly in. Those who speak of such a Jesus are regarding Him as a liar with every word they speak, every thing they do, and every breath they take! This is how the religious authorities esteemed Him then, and by and large, this is how they regard Him even now.
If you truly desire to “make scripture practical†by putting yourself into these verses as one who...
1) lies, and does not practice the truth
2) deceives himself and has no truth in him
3) makes God a liar, and does not have His word in him
...then you have a far more serious problem than you originally thought! The only true practicality found here is that you have rejected Christ and that you truly do not have any relationship with Him whatever!
Have you come to see Jesus as the One who has delivered you from your sins? Does your testimony sound, even remotely, like this: I once was blind, but now I see? Are you at all thankful that God has forgiven you because of His Son? If so, then the truth is in you. You already have fellowship with Him and you already walk in the light, because if you didn’t you couldn’t see it! And you wouldn’t care! But you may be caught up in a vicious struggle in an attempt to gain what you already have as your birthright in Christ. Cease to struggle...and rest in the reality!

 

[thessalonian]

Bubba,

Another article that does not address my questions. Sigh. Yes, we need a relationship with Christ. Yes we are saved by grace through faith. Yes, someone who is justified if he dies will go to heaven. Either you don't understand the question or have no answer. Talk to me about sanctification Bubba. I know what you think about justification.

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
You can not separate the two (justification and sanctification), where one begins the other starts. Remember sanctification is simply to be "set apart", as believers it was accomplished at the cross. Part of being "set apart" is growing in grace, until the day we see him face to face and we are complete.
I am sorry if you can't grasp this concept, I tried every means that I know. Pray about it and sincerely ask if there is any truth in what I have presented, and see if you get an answer.
Bubba

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
You can not separate the two (justification and sanctification), where one begins the other starts.

This is hilliarous. As a Catholic I in fact don't separate them. I completely agree with the statement.

Remember sanctification is simply to be "set apart", as believers it was accomplished at the cross. Part of being "set apart" is growing in grace, until the day we see him face to face and we are complete.

If it was completly accomplished at the cross then how can it be growing in grace until the day we see him face to face and are complete? How can it be a process in our lives today? As I keep saying, you deny and ignore the issues I raise over and over and over. Sad. Very sad.

I am sorry if you can't grasp this concept, I tried every means that I know. Pray about it and sincerely ask if there is any truth in what I have presented, and see if you get an answer.
Bubba

And so bubba continues to dance around the issue. We're done.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?

http://www.carm.org/questions/justification.htm
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Understanding the difference between justification and sanctification can be as important as understanding the difference between salvation and damnation. Rightly dividing between the two is of crucial importance. When you understand what they are, you can then draw a line in the sand and say, "This is what saves. This is not what saves."

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.

Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.

Does this mean that those justified by grace can sin as much as they want?

Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"

1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."

The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (1 John 1:8). But the war between the saved and his sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20) and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To continually seek sin and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). (Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.)
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(Above is the relevant information, for the complete article check the link above)
(Emphasis added by me)

Now as I understand it, according to Scripture, God is so holy He cannot be in the presence of sin. That being the case it is necessary for us sinful humans to be made “perfect†or “glorified†to be in heaven. As the above article pointed out, one is not completely “perfect†until death. Sanctification takes the act of the Holy Spirit within us who enables us to submit to God and contribute to our sanctification. Ultimately however it is God who sanctifies us…we are merely enabled by Him through the Holy Spirit to one day become completely “glorified†or “made perfect.â€Â

To be honest I have not given justification and sanctification much thought prier to this post. That being the case my conclusions may in fact be wrong but this is what I have come up with at this point. I am open to being corrected and instructed in the correct conclusionâ€â€I am more than willing to learn because that is one of the reasons I contiue to posts and explore “Christian forums.netâ€Â