What Saved You?

[Bubba]

"If it was completly accomplished at the cross then how can it be growing in grace until the day we see him face to face and are complete? How can it be a process in our lives today? As I keep saying, you deny and ignore the issues I raise over and over and over. Sad. Very sad."

Thess, the concept that you can not grasp, which Scripture addresses is that the believer "is simultaneously a sinner and simultaneously seen as perfect", call it a mystery if you will, but this is what Christ has accomplished, I am seen as Holy even in the flesh by the Father. The only process is that we do become more Christlike as we mature, in the earthly realm, but this does not effect what has been done already in the spiritual realm on the cross. It is finshed Jesus cried.
Bubba
(very slow day at work)

 

[thessalonian]

Noc,

Thanks. That is precisely how I see the protestant doctrines of justification and sanctification. Your post implies imputed righteousness of course. I have much agreement with the sanctification doctrine. There are more issues with justification but some agreement. This paragraph is the crux of the issue that I have been trying to get bubba to answer.

That being the case it is necessary for us sinful humans to be made “perfect†or “glorified†to be in heaven. As the above article pointed out, one is not completely “perfect†until death.

My question is where is the guarantee that sanctification is completed at the end of life? I would hope that you will agree that Billy Graham has been going through the process of sanctification for a long time. Now as I asked before, if a man gets on a bus and happens to sit down next to Billy and Billy convinces him of Christ, he does the sinners prayer and all, his righteousness is only imputed. This man was a great sinner, alcoholic, lived with a woman, lot's of use and abuse of women, did some drugs. All these things are still a part of him, i.e. he has habits that need to be healed/sanctified. He still (according to protestant theology, Catholic theology is a different issue), by your own admission has a process of sanctification to go through. Now tell me, if the bus crashes what gives for the new convert. Is the sanctification automatic at death? Is he perfected before, at, or after death? Is sanctification optional such that we don't really need it? From your post I would say that you would not agree with this.

I do wish someone would answer. Thanks.

 

[Heidi]

"If it was completly accomplished at the cross then how can it be growing in grace until the day we see him face to face and are complete? How can it be a process in our lives today? As I keep saying, you deny and ignore the issues I raise over and over and over. Sad. Very sad."

Thess, the concept that you can not grasp, which Scripture addresses is that the believer "is simultaneously a sinner and simultaneously seen as perfect", call it a mystery if you will, but this is what Christ has accomplished, I am seen as Holy even in the flesh by the Father. The only process is that we do become more Christlike as we mature, in the earthly realm, but this does not effect what has been done already in the spiritual realm on the cross. It is finshed Jesus cried.
Bubba
(very slow day at work)

That's called spiritual maturity, my friend. Paul said some people will be saved only as "one escaping through the flames" and others will bear more fruit. God gives each of us the measure of faith that he knows we can handle. "For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That is not a lie. :angel:

 

[thessalonian]

That's called spiritual maturity, my friend. Paul said some people will be saved only as "one escaping through the flames" and others will bear more fruit. God gives each of us the measure of faith that he knows we can handle. "For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That is not a lie. :angel:

Where did I say anything about condemnation? Try not to put words in my mouth and post verses and put interpretions to them that you think I hold. Thanks. I agree that both Billy Graham and his new friend on the bus will make it to heaven. So what you are telling me is that sanctification is really optional and God may not give some the opportunity for it. Billy's friend did not have time to perform lot's of good works. Now if he died when Billy did, when does this fire occur? When does he get purged of his sinful ways so that he isn't lusting and angry in heaven?

Blessings

 

[Bubba]

"Now if he died when Billy did, when does this fire occur? When does he get purged of his sinful ways so that he isn't lusting and angry in heaven? "

It happened at the cross (purging of sinful behaviors was put on Jesus in our stead) and he is now complete in heaven with no desire to sin, flesh is now incorruptable (1Cor. 15 again), this is grace!!!!!!!!!!!
Bubba

 

[thessalonian]

"Now if he died when Billy did, when does this fire occur? When does he get purged of his sinful ways so that he isn't lusting and angry in heaven? "

It happened at the cross (purging of sinful behaviors was put on Jesus in our stead) and he is now complete in heaven with no desire to sin, flesh is now incorruptable (1Cor. 15 again), this is grace!!!!!!!!!!!
Bubba

Bubba,

Your not making sense or being consistent. You say that sanctification is a process in our lives and then when confronted with my question you say it happened 2000 years ago. From a perspective this is true. Christ earned all grace needed for us to come to faith, to be justified, and to be sanctified. But justification from that same kind of perspective happened 2000 years ago as well. Grace has to be applied to our lives TODAY Budda. Christ earned it for us, we better use it or lose it. Grace is what does the purging. AMEN!

The only process is that we do become more Christlike as we mature, in the earthly realm, but this does not effect what has been done already in the spiritual realm on the cross.

I would assume this is sanctification for you. Correct? Does this include overcoming sin and growing in holiness. Becomeing virtuous, ie. overcomeing vice? If it does how can it be said to be optional? How can it be okay for it never to get completed. Surely it happens by GRACE, I agree. So was it completed 2000 years ago as well? This makes no sense Bubba. Didn't Jeus criticize the pharasees because the cup was made clean on the outside while the inside was left dirty. This to me is the nature of the imputed righteousness doctrine. Sure, God is going to allow us time to overcome our sin on this earth. But eventually the cup must become clean on the inside. We must overcome our sin and not have lust, anger, and deciet on our hearts in heaven. This of course happens by God's grace. But back to the billy graham bus dilema that you will not address. No, it's not just about maturing. The guy is not truly righteous inside. He wants a drink. He likely will not instantly move out on his live in girlfriend. He still has some pot laying around the house that is going to be hard to throw in the garbage. :-? Surely you don't think he overcame it 2000 years ago in the strictly literal sense?

 

[Bubba]

Thess says:
“Your not making sense or being consistent. You say that sanctification is a process in our lives and then when confronted with my question you say it happened 2000 years ago. From a perspective this is true. Christ earned all grace needed for us to come to faith, to be justified, and to be sanctified. But justification from that same kind of perspective happened 2000 years ago as well. Grace has to be applied to our lives TODAY Budda. Christ earned it for us, we better use it or lose it. Grace is what does the purging. AMEN!â€Â

As A.W. Pink already said if you had read:
“It is not that the justified soul is now left to himself, so that he is certain of getting to Heaven no matter how he conducts himselfâ€â€the fatal error of Antinomians. No Indeed. God also imparts to him the blessed Holy Spirit, who works within him the desire to serve, please, and glorify the One who has been so gracious to Him. "The love of Christ constraineth us... that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again" (2 Cor. 5:14, 15). They now "delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22), and though the flesh, the world, and the Devil oppose every step of the way, occasioning many a sad fallâ€â€which is repented of, confessed, and forsakenâ€â€nevertheless the Spirit renews them day by day (2 Cor. 4:16) and leads them in the paths of righteousness for Christ’s name’s sake.â€Â

Thess continues:
“I would assume this is sanctification for you. Correct? Does this include overcoming sin and growing in holiness. Becomeing virtuous, ie. overcomeing vice? If it does how can it be said to be optional? How can it be okay for it never to get completed. Surely it happens by GRACE, I agree. So was it completed 2000 years ago as well? This makes no sense Bubba. Didn't Jeus criticize the pharasees because the cup was made clean on the outside while the inside was left dirty. This to me is the nature of the imputed righteousness doctrine. Sure, God is going to allow us time to overcome our sin on this earth. But eventually the cup must become clean on the inside. We must overcome our sin and not have lust, anger, and deciet on our hearts in heaven. This of course happens by God's grace. But back to the billy graham bus dilema that you will not address. No, it's not just about maturing. The guy is not truly righteous inside. He wants a drink. He likely will not instantly move out on his live in girlfriend. He still has some pot laying around the house that is going to be hard to throw in the garbage. Surely you don't think he overcame it 2000 years ago in the strictly literal sense?â€Â

Yes, I do, but as A.W. Pink said:


“In the last paragraph will be found the answer to those who object that the preaching of justification by the imputed righteousness of Christ, apprehended by faith alone, will encourage carelessness and foster licentiousness. Those whom God justifies are not left in their natural condition, under the dominion of sin, but are quickened, indwelt, and guided by the Holy Spirit. As Christ cannot be divided, and so is received as Lord to rule us as well as Saviour to redeem us, so those whom God justifies He also sanctifies. We do not affirm that all who receive this blessed truth into their heads have their lives transformed therebyâ€â€no indeed; but we do insist that where it is applied in power to the heart there always follows a walk to the glory of God, the fruits of righteousness being brought forth to the praise of His name. Each truly justified soul will say:
"Let worldly minds the world pursue,It has no charms for me;â€Â

Face it Thess, you can twist my words and those I quote, but the bottom line is that you do not have ears to hear nor eyes to see, because that is the way you want it.

Take care, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
Less I forget to mention, your last day of his life person had undoubtably no less things undone in his life as the thief on the cross, yet our Lord declared that "today" he would be in paradise. Oh yes, I forgot, this was mentioned on my very first post.
Bubba

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein,
I ask that I might get a idea what bent you are. A little more clarification:

"Jesus is the Son of God."
Is he God?
"The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwells in me."
Did He rise physically?
"Christ will return to judge the just and the unjust."
Will He return in a physical body?
"a master composer"
Is the Bible inerrant in regards to the original language?



Bubba

Here you go then

No. He is not God. God has placed all things (except himself) under Him.
Yes. He was seen of many after His ressurection.
Yes. We will see him return as he left.
Yes. Given the premise of divine inspiration I have not found anything I disagree with - that is of course as I interpret it.

Analyse that.

 

[Bubba]

Mutzrein,
Thanks, I am a little surprised that there are so many on this forum who do not believe in the Diety of Jesus. If we ever get into any serious dialogue, I at least have a starting point of what you believe.
In Christ, Bubba

 

[Dave...]

Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?

http://www.carm.org/questions/justification.htm
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Understanding the difference between justification and sanctification can be as important as understanding the difference between salvation and damnation. Rightly dividing between the two is of crucial importance. When you understand what they are, you can then draw a line in the sand and say, "This is what saves. This is not what saves."

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.

Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.

Does this mean that those justified by grace can sin as much as they want?

Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"

1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."

The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (1 John 1:8). But the war between the saved and his sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20) and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To continually seek sin and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). (Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.)

Excellent! :D

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
Less I forget to mention, your last day of his life person had undoubtably no less things undone in his life as the thief on the cross, yet our Lord declared that "today" he would be in paradise. Oh yes, I forgot, this was mentioned on my very first post.
Bubba

Are you using this as an apologetic against purgatory? It's not working. Catholicism teaches infused righteousness (christ's imputed righteousness allows the HS to come in and do a real cleaing, not just leaving the cup clean on the inside). The newly regenerated go straight to heaven, do not pass through purgatory. I've not been arguing my beliefs at all. You, speaking like you are knowledgable about purgatory should have known that.

Did the theif need no sanctification, implying that it is optional? Why does Billy G. go through a life of sanctification, while the theif goes through none. How was he cleansed of all unrighteousness if his righteousness was only imputed?

 

[thessalonian]

Face it Thess, you can twist my words and those I quote, but the bottom line is that you do not have ears to hear nor eyes to see, because that is the way you want it.

Bubba,

What words of yours have I twisted? Where have I said you beleive something that you say you do not believe? I understand your position quite well. How can I twist if I am just asking you questions, which is primarily what I have been doing. You simply won't answer directly. That is too bad.

Do you believe sanctification is a process?
Is sanctification neccessary or optional?
Is overcoming sin a part of sanctification?
Do two individuals need equal sanctification?
Does sanctification involve trials from past sins?
Is sanctification guaranteed to be complete at the end of life?


Please answer dude.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
It is going slow at work and I am bored. In regards to your key verse, most of those I trust, in the sphere of influence I have, would say John is speaking to those who are not saved, check verses 6 through 8 out, 6 and 8 reads as those who have not experienced Justification, 7 are those who have. The ninth verse is the solution for 6 and 8 individuals:

1John.1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

â€ÂThis doesn't just sound like imputed righteousness to me.â€Â

Maybe it does now in context.

Bubba

I missed this. The context you are forcing upon the passage is imputed only righteousness. I do believe that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. That however allows the Holy Spirit to come in and do a real cleaing which is what "CLEANS US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" means. How can a surficial cleansing be "CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS". It just doesn't work.

 

[Bubba]

“What words of yours have I twisted? Where have I said you beleive something that you say you do not believe? I understand your position quite well. How can I twist if I am just asking you questions, which is primarily what I have been doing. You simply won't answer directly. That is too bad.

Do you believe sanctification is a process?
Is sanctification neccessary or optional?
Is overcoming sin a part of sanctification?
Do two individuals need equal sanctification?
Does sanctification involve trials from past sins?
Is sanctification guaranteed to be complete at the end of life?â€Â


The twist is that you write as if I haven’t answered your questions, yet I have over and over again with my own words and the words of others, you do not accept my position their position and then pretend I haven’t answered. That is what is sad. If you honestly went back and reread my posts, you would readily see that I have answered every question above. As you have said in a couple of your posts to me, “Use your mind†and then maybe you will realize you have had your answers from the very first post. Bubba

 

[thessalonian]

Sigh.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein,
Thanks, I am a little surprised that there are so many on this forum who do not believe in the Diety of Jesus. If we ever get into any serious dialogue, I at least have a starting point of what you believe.
In Christ, Bubba

No problem. And it has suprised me somewhat that there are others who have this in common with me. I know there are those who many would consider to be in cults or 'non-christian' that do not believe in the deity of Christ but I don't consider myself to be in that category. However, my premise does differ to many within Christendom it seems but if you would care to, I can send you a doc written by a friend with my collaboration on the gospel. This will give you insight into my premise.

 

[English]

What saved you was when you heard the word of God and believed. What will save you is your heart because YHVH is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

We already know that all are under sin:

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Thus the only confession a man need make is CHRIST.

Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Act 8:16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 saying, "Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
Act 8:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Act 8:21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Act 8:22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
Act 8:23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity."
Act 8:24 And Simon answered, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

Take note! Simon was a believer and yet Peter observed him yet in captivity to sin. Simon was born again:

1Jo 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Born again/believed are synonymous terms. I pray that you will see therefore simon asks again for mercy that Peter would pray for him? That salvation therefore is not based upon anything other than the mercies of YHVH?

1Jo 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

In short; he that loves not, lives not.

 

[Bubba]

"However, my premise does differ to many within Christendom it seems but if you would care to, I can send you a doc written by a friend with my collaboration on the gospel. This will give you insight into my premise."

Mutzrein, sure, how would you send it and if I decide to comment on it, would that be problem?
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

"I missed this. The context you are forcing upon the passage is imputed only righteousness. I do believe that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. That however allows the Holy Spirit to come in and do a real cleaing which is what "CLEANS US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" means. How can a surficial cleansing be "CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS". It just doesn't work."

Thess, do me a favor, it doesn't have to be done immediately, but would you actually work through the passages of my first post and the article I included from A.W. Pink. You do not even have to comment back with me, this whole issue is not about Protestantism or Catholicism, it is about what the Bible says happen at the cross. For me, God revealing the "dovetailed" truths of justification and sanctification as a finished work of the cross, which is worked out in the believers life in this realm and already established in the heavenly realm, I found to be absolutely liberating. I actually, want to be holy and pleasing to my Lord. Where before I just went through the motions.

In Christ, Bubba