What specifically is "guaranteed to come" in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?

[FreeGrace]

Hope means we do not yet have what we are hoping for.

It doesn't mean that at all. Please cite any lexicon or dictionary that makes this claim.

The Greek word means "confident expectation". Your definition is just circular reasoning. Instead of defining the word, you've just used that same word with other words, which is no definition at all.

If we have hope then we have an expectation of something in the future, not in the present.
JLB

And that's the point! A confident expectation. Of salvation. Not wishful thinking about it.

 

[for_his_glory]

You seem to be using the word "guarantee" as a modern rendering, rather than what the original word means.

It's a down payment, or earnest.

IOW He has done His part, to show us He will make good on His promises, so all that is left is for us to make good on our commitment when we committed our-self to Him in obedience of the Gospel.


The Holy Spirit that we have in this life is the down payment, until the Day of Judgement, in which each of us will be Judged, to determine our deeds.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:6-7

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

On that Day, the Lord will be looking for those who were faithful with the measure, each one had been given.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what isyours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:20-30


Those who produce nothing with the measure of His Spirit they had been given have even what they received from Him taken from them.

• even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Jesus made it clear, about that Day, and those who were fruitful and faithful with the measure they had been given, verses those who produced nothing with His life they had been freely given as a gift.


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Matthew 25:34-36


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:6-7

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Synergistic free will worship is what brings confusion and heretical anti Christ doctrines of Devils. And is why there is no resolution to this argument being debated by Arminians of all stripes

Another reason for no resolution to this argument is that Arminians think it is OK to add words like "as long as" to verses that don't include such wording or phrasing, in order to support their claims.

When Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28, He NEVER said "as long as..." anything.

The SOLE condition of receiving eternal life is the basis for never perishing, but Arminians must add "as long as..." and then include a list of whatever they want to add in order to make ultimate salvation a condition of doing something beyond believing.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, I don't know what more I can add that I haven't already said in the three pages.

The problem begins and ends with your adding of words that Jesus NEVER said in John 10:28. That verse is a clear statement of eternal security, and does NOT include "as long as..." anything.

Since this is your thread and you have your mind set as to not want to try and understand what I and JLB are showing you it is time to walk away as this point forward I would only be repeating myself, so God bless and have a good day

I fully understand what both posters have said. And I've shown all of it is false and unbiblical.

Jesus NEVER said "as long as..." whatever shall never perish. He did say recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28.

But anyone is free to believe whatever they want to believe. But just know that Jesus NEVER said "as long as..." in order to never perish.

But, for those who love the words "as long as...", I will say this.

As long as one has believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47) they shall never perish. Now, that is biblical.

Our eternal security is based upon receiving eternal life. Not doing something after receiving eternal life.

What you've and the other poster have presented is not supported by Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm not Armenian nor a Calvinist, but only a blood bought child of God that by His grace that I am saved through faith, which is Christ Jesus that I have the promise that I will be saved from the lake of fire if I abide in Him and His word.

I don't expect a response, given your previous post, but again, there are NO VERSES that say one is promised to be saved from the lake of fire IF they abide in Him and His word. You're just adding to Scripture. And your claims are not biblical because they cannot be found in Scripture.

If I am no longer abiding in Christ and His word and lost all hope of salvation in Him then that promise becomes void by my own doing and not Gods doing.

Unsubstantiated opinion without Scriptural support.

The OP asked what specifically is the guarantee and I gave my reply so now it's time for me to walk away from this discussion as there is nothing more I can add.

Already added MORE than the Bible says about eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

You seem to be using the word "guarantee" as a modern rendering, rather than what the original word means.

It's a down payment, or earnest.

Please check out Eph 1:14 in bible hub.com and see how 28 translations give the verse.

In God's economy, a down payment or earnest is the SAME as a promise, which is the SAME as a guarantee.

Those who actually consider your claim realize that IF God removed His down payment or reneged on His earnest, which is a promise, He would be a LIAR. Not a charge I would ever suggest anyone make.

IOW He has done His part, to show us He will make good on His promises, so all that is left is for us to make good on our commitment when we committed our-self to Him in obedience of the Gospel.

Good heaven!! This just smacks of synergistic salvation. That we must "do our part" in order to get saved.

That couldn't be more wrong. The Bible is clear: Christ did it ALL. There is NOTHING left for man to do except receive the gift by faith. Period.

The Holy Spirit that we have in this life is the down payment, until the Day of Judgement, in which each of us will be Judged, to determine our deeds.

This down payment is the Spirit Himself, which Jesus promised will be with us FOREVER, thus making this down payment a GUARANTEE, whether you like it or not.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:6-7

Good luck with this works system of salvation. But I don't believe in luck or any works based salvation. Both are doomed.

Eternal life is received on the basis of faith alone. In fact, works are excluded.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[MCoop]

I'm not Armenian nor a Calvinist, but only a blood bought child of God that by His grace that I am saved through faith, which is Christ Jesus that I have the promise that I will be saved from the lake of fire if I abide in Him and His word. If I am no longer abiding in Christ and His word and lost all hope of salvation in Him then that promise becomes void by my own doing and not Gods doing.

The OP asked what specifically is the guarantee and I gave my reply so now it's time for me to walk away from this discussion as there is nothing more I can add.

IF you abide rt? So everything said before that “IF” is nullified to justify mans works being the ultimate foundation for being saved, not Christ and His finished work. So how is what being said isn’t any different than the Judaizers? IF “you” don’t abide by the laws of Moses, one cannot be saved, regardless of ones profession of faith in Christ? No different because there is no faith in Christ as the only foundation for salvation apart from works. The result of salvation is to abide in Christ by Gods power and Spirit. All for whom God elected to save in Christ WILL abide in Christ by faith. This is a guarantee by the giving of the Spirit. And yes your soteriology is Arminian whether u acknowledge it or not. It is why Ephesians 2:8-10 is understood in a humanistic man centered way by the advocates of losing salvation by works. There is no confidence or assurance of eternal life and forgiveness in Christ. And is why you don’t see the Spirit of God as a guarantee of eternal life now and forever

 

[for_his_glory]

I know I said there was nothing more to add, but just could not let it alone as I did some more searching to find some scriptures that say what happens to us if we are no longer abiding in Christ, His word and Gods will.

Only the person who walks in the will of God is eternally secure meaning "if" we abide in Him and His word walking in Gods will and not our own and not walk away as one who walks away does not bear good fruit and will be cut from the branch and cast into the fire. Abiding is a requirement of the hope of our salvation that we will have eternal life with the Father as then we are saved by the free gift of Gods grace through faith.
Matthew 7:15-22; 12:50; John 15:5, 6, 10; 2 Peter 3:13-18; 1 John 2:14-17

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[Papa Zoom]

As long as means the same as "if" as in, if you abide in me, as there are over 31 verses that speak about abiding in Christ. "if" is a conjunction word that is a conditional term that means as long as you abide in me, but if you no longer abide in me then you are none of mine and the guarantee is no longer promised to you as you no longer abide in me and my word. No one can pluck us out of the hands of Christ, but for whatever reason many allow themselves to be plucked out as they no longer believe and abide in the word. I can't make it any plainer.

I'm not making a point here either for or against your position. I will say that abiding in Christ is essential to the Christian walk. And, this word, "abide" hits home for me as I just went through both a very unpleasant illness and the return of my depression/anxiety. God's word always brings relief. But I also ran across an app called, Abide. It's all about abiding in Christ and each day the app takes me through a verse, I journal, we pray, and contemplate God's word.

I'm posting this response because you are so right about abiding in Christ. We must. And for me, that means every waking minute. I'm abiding when I'm washing the dishes, cleaning the room, reading a book, or watching TV. It's a way of life for the Christian.

More than that, we are servants of the Most High. We show our love of God by extending that love to others. And it starts in the home. For me, that means loving and serving my wife as Christ loved and served the Church.

Abide. I can't say enough about this one word. It's a powerful thing to abide in Christ. So thank you for bringing that up. I hope I've added positively to your post regarding abiding in Him!

God bless!

~Papa

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not making a point here either for or against your position. I will say that abiding in Christ is essential to the Christian walk. And, this word, "abide" hits home for me as I just went through both a very unpleasant illness and the return of my depression/anxiety. God's word always brings relief. But I also ran across an app called, Abide. It's all about abiding in Christ and each day the app takes me through a verse, I journal, we pray, and contemplate God's word.

I'm posting this response because you are so right about abiding in Christ. We must. And for me, that means every waking minute. I'm abiding when I'm washing the dishes, cleaning the room, reading a book, or watching TV. It's a way of life for the Christian.

More than that, we are servants of the Most High. We show our love of God by extending that love to others. And it starts in the home. For me, that means loving and serving my wife as Christ loved and served the Church.

Abide. I can't say enough about this one word. It's a powerful thing to abide in Christ. So thank you for bringing that up. I hope I've added positively to your post regarding abiding in Him!

God bless!

~Papa

You are one who abides even through your trials and tribulations this life throws at you. Ya, if we are not abiding even though we did at one time, God will cut us off unless we come back and abide again in all truths. Thank you Papa for great insight to abiding.

 

[SytheF]

You are one who abides even through your trials and tribulations this life throws at you. Ya, if we are not abiding even though we did at one time, God will cut us off unless we come back and abide again in all truths. Thank you Papa for great insight to abiding.

So we have to come back and abide again in all truths? Does that mean the truth of all that transpired to make us a new creature, a new creation, through our atonement for our fallen state as sinner, have to be done over?

 

[SytheF]

What transiatory salvationists don't appear to comprehend is the scriptures.
For the indwelt Christian who is eternally saved in God's irrevocable gift of grace covenant, there is no returning to the state of damnation. Or, being "un-saved".
God did it all. And when he said his gifts are irrevocable, and salvation is a gift through his grace, that's exactly what he meant.

And died in order to seal for eternity the truth of it!
There isn't a like option in this part of the boards and yet, :amen , will have to suffice. I write walls of text to say that same thing you did short and sweet. Bravo for that too.

 

[SytheF]

I already have if you read through all three pages as truly there is nothing more to explain other than repeating myself.

I read this and went through all these pages and I will say as this is a public discussion for anyone to read and share, no you didn't.
What I read of you is the insistence that we have to continually abide in Christ in order to remain saved. That we have to keep the faith so that God keeps the faith we deserve to keep his gift.
The scriptures don't say that. Nor has anything you've said along those lines address the specifics in that members directive for proof in order to sustain your argument.

 

[Butch5]

What was Paul referring to in these 2 verses?

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

These 2 verses are directly related to Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Now, after guaranteeing what is to come, Paul ends his epistle to the very carnal Corinthian church with this in 2 Cor 12:
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.

21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Hm. Doesn't sound like Christians living like how Christians should be living. Yet he told them of a guarantee that is to come.

Now, I firmly believe that what is guaranteed to come is exactly what Eph 1:14 says; our inheritance. Meaning, all believers, because they are God's children, have an inheritance in heaven.

Rom 8:17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God
So the inheritance of 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5 and Eph 1:14 is for the heirs of God.

There's another inheritance in Rom 8:17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

This is a different inheritance, which is clearly seen by the conditional "if indeed...".

This inheritance is stated a bit differently in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

It should be clear that to "share in His sufferings" from Rom 8:17 is the same as to "endure" in 2 Tim 2:12.

So, it's obvious that those believers who endure, will "co-reign" with Christ. But it's conditional on "sharing in His sufferings".

However, that is for another thread.

My question is for any of those who believe that salvation can be lost:

What is the guarantee that is to come, from 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?

I would submit that it is the promise of God, the inheritance. However, the word guarantee isn't in the original text. The Greek word actually means a down payment. As you pointed out the Spirit is given as a down payment on the inheritance. Also, believers are joint heirs with Christ as you also pointed out. The inheritance is the land promised to Abraham.

 

[SytheF]

I would submit that it is the promise of God, the inheritance. However, the word guarantee isn't in the original text. The Greek word actually means a down payment. As you pointed out the Spirit is given as a down payment on the inheritance. Also, believers are joint heirs with Christ as you also pointed out. The inheritance is the land promised to Abraham.

Missed it. What is that Greek word?

 

[JLB]

You are dedicated to teaching Salvation is not eternal.
Why do you object to Romans 11:29? You seem to be unaware of the passage's details.

I have no objection to Romans 11:29.

I do disagree with isolating this verse and taking it out of context.

Do you understand that Paul is teaching that the Jews who fell into unbelief, and were subsequently "broken off" from covenant relationship, in which the Gentiles who believed we "grafted in", as it were, to the natural olive tree.

• 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

In addition Paul warns the now believing Gentiles, that they could suffer the same fate, if they do not continue.

• 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

He also says these Jews who fell into unbelief, and are now enemies of the Gospel and were removed from covenant relationship, can indeed be grated back in, IF they do not continue in unbelief.

• 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29


How can "gifts" refer to eternal life, when the context shows that the "gifts and calling" are referring to enemies of the Gospel in verse 28.

These enemies of the Gospel still have the "calling" of salvation on them because has not cast away His people, as the opening of verse 1 teaches us.

These enemies of the Gospel, can indeed be grafted back in among the branches, IF they do not continue in unbelief, because God has not turned His back, or cast away His people, because the calling of salvation through believing the Gospel, still remains as an open invitation to them.

His call to them is irrevocable.

The New Testament was written in Koine Greek.

The Greek New Testament with English parallels for Romans 11:29
Bible in Basic English
11:29 Because God's selection and his mercies may not be changed.

King James Version
11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Their unbelief is clearly a reference to them once believing, but then falling into unbelief, and being "cut off" from the covenant.


Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23




JLB

 

[Butch5]

Missed it. What is that Greek word?

The Greek word is arrhabon

 

[JLB]

Please check out Eph 1:14 in bible hub.com and see how 28 translations give the verse.

In God's economy, a down payment or earnest is the SAME as a promise, which is the SAME as a guarantee.

Those who actually consider your claim realize that IF God removed His down payment or reneged on His earnest, which is a promise, He would be a LIAR. Not a charge I would ever suggest anyone make.


Good heaven!! This just smacks of synergistic salvation. That we must "do our part" in order to get saved.

That couldn't be more wrong. The Bible is clear: Christ did it ALL. There is NOTHING left for man to do except receive the gift by faith. Period.


This down payment is the Spirit Himself, which Jesus promised will be with us FOREVER, thus making this down payment a GUARANTEE, whether you like it or not.


Good luck with this works system of salvation. But I don't believe in luck or any works based salvation. Both are doomed.

Eternal life is received on the basis of faith alone. In fact, works are excluded.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Yes, the promise of God is to those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then fall into unbelief, will not obtain the promise of eternal life.

9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of[c] love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:9-12


Why don't we just take this up in a one on one debate, like the man suggested.



JLB

 

[JLB]

And that's the point! A confident expectation. Of salvation. Not wishful thinking about it.

Amen, I agree.

Confident expectation.

I have never said anything about "wishful thinking".

I'm glad you have come to the realization, that salvation will be obtained as an end result of our faith, when the Lord comes.

Now that you have admitted that, the rest will fall into place, as you study.

May the Lord bless you with His wisdom as you study these things.


JLB

 

[SytheF]

The Greek word is arrhabon

I see.
Realizing the Hebrew would apply first because Jesus who is throughout the old testament is the fulfillment of reconcillation with the Father, himself, as prophesied concerning the messiah savior.
Therefore, the transliterated Greek word "arrhabon", would first be understood in the Hebrew at This Link
Definition

1. pledge, security