What specifically is "guaranteed to come" in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?

[Butch5]

I see.
Realizing the Hebrew would apply first because Jesus who is throughout the old testament is the fulfillment of reconcillation with the Father, himself, as prophesied concerning the messiah savior.
Therefore, the transliterated Greek word "arrhabon", would first be understood in the Hebrew at This Link
Definition

1. pledge, security

Actually, it wouldn't. Paul wrote his letters in Greek not Hebrew. However, the word security also means a down payment. One gives a security deposit when renting a house. The security deposit is to assure that one won't destroy the property.

 

[SytheF]

Maybe it needs repeating. Faith, Belief, is a given in the promise of eternal salvation by the gift of God and his free grace.
John 3:16 promises, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jesus saved us and he keeps us. Because God knew those who would be in Jesus before people even heard of Jesus.
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I
SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

 

[SytheF]

Actually, it wouldn't. Paul wrote his letters in Greek not Hebrew. However, the word security also means a down payment. One gives a security deposit when renting a house. The security deposit is to assure that one won't destroy the property.

Paul was a Pharisee highly educated in the Torah and the law. Renting houses is a non-sequitur to this discussion.
You have failed to make your point when you imagine Hebrew does not matter. It is eternal security.
In your non-sequitur you failed to understand that a security deposit besides meaning nothing to this discussion, can increase due to damage found to the property after the lease expires. The security deposit can be returned to the tenant when the property is inspected by the owner or manager and found to be in pristine condition not in need of repairs. Or, it can be retained by the property owner due to the damage found on said property.

That is example of how the renters security deposit analogy fails when speaking of eternal security through God's covenant.

 

[Butch5]

Maybe it needs repeating. Faith, Belief, is a given in the promise of eternal salvation by the gift of God and his free grace.
John 3:16 promises, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jesus saved us and he keeps us. Because God knew those who would be in Jesus before people even heard of Jesus.
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I
SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

Taking a few passages out of context doesn't prove anything. However, there is nothing here about the word arrhabon.

 

[for_his_glory]

So we have to come back and abide again in all truths? Does that mean the truth of all that transpired to make us a new creature, a new creation, through our atonement for our fallen state as sinner, have to be done over?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Who are God's adversaries, but those who do not abide in Him and His word as they have turned away from the knowledge of truth after knowing truth. I've see this many times as others turn away from God as they can not face the trials and tribulations that come against them for the sake of Christ as they have been falsely taught we will never have trials or tribulations in our life and when they come they curse God and turn away no longer abiding in Him and His word. God's promises are that of blessings or cursing, Deuteronomy Chapter 27, 28, as you choose this day in whom you will serve, Joshua 24:15. Can those adversaries come back to Gods grace, yes as long as they are alive and Christ hasn't come back yet, but only if they did not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit as all sin can be forgiven except blaspheme, Matthew 12:31, 32.

 

[JLB]

I see.
Realizing the Hebrew would apply first because Jesus who is throughout the old testament is the fulfillment of reconcillation with the Father, himself, as prophesied concerning the messiah savior.
Therefore, the transliterated Greek word "arrhabon", would first be understood in the Hebrew at This Link
Definition

1. pledge, security

A further study reveals it to be a pledge that is made by a groom, to a bride, showing His intention toward her is that of commitment.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Paul was a Pharisee highly educated in the Torah and the law. Renting houses is a non-sequitur to this discussion.
You have failed to make your point when you imagine Hebrew does not matter. It is eternal security.
In your non-sequitur you failed to understand that a security deposit besides meaning nothing to this discussion, can increase due to damage found to the property after the lease expires. The security deposit can be returned to the tenant when the property is inspected by the owner or manager and found to be in pristine condition not in need of repairs. Or, it can be retained by the property owner due to the damage found on said property.

That is example of how the renters security deposit analogy fails when speaking of eternal security through God's covenant.

It's not a non-sequitur because we're speaking of an English translation. As I said, the word guarantee isn't in the original text. This idea of guarantee as something certain to happen is an idea that came into Christianity from the Reformation. We know that this idea of once saved always saves is not Biblical simply by looking at church history. This doctrine doesn't appear in the church until the Reformation in the 1500's. As a matter of fact, the early Christians fought against this idea a heresy. It was the Gnostics who combine Christianity with Greek philosophy who taught this doctrine and the Christians fought against it vehemently. However, That;s not what this thread is about. It's about the inheritance.

 

[FreeGrace]

I know I said there was nothing more to add, but just could not let it alone as I did some more searching to find some scriptures that say what happens to us if we are no longer abiding in Christ, His word and Gods will.

Yes, there ARE verses about what happens when someone no longer abies in Christ. But there are NO verses that say that salvation is lost.

Only the person who walks in the will of God is eternally secure meaning "if" we abide in Him and His word walking in Gods will and not our own and not walk away as one who walks away does not bear good fruit and will be cut from the branch and cast into the fire.

How do you not see the works salvation in this statement??

Abiding is a requirement of the hope of our salvation that we will have eternal life with the Father as then we are saved by the free gift of Gods grace through faith.
Matthew 7:15-22; 12:50; John 15:5, 6, 10; 2 Peter 3:13-18; 1 John 2:14-17

We are saved by grace through faith, and NOT of works. Eph 2:8,9

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Please show scholarly evidence that spewing out of the mouth equals losing salvation. It's a metaphor, for heaven sakes.

Please find verses that plainly SAY we can lose salvation, without figures of speech or metaphors.

 

[SytheF]

It's not a non-sequitur because we're speaking of an English translation. As I said, the word guarantee isn't in the original text. This idea of guarantee as something certain to happen is an idea that came into Christianity from the Reformation. We know that this idea of once saved always saves is not Biblical simply by looking at church history. This doctrine doesn't appear in the church until the Reformation in the 1500's. As a matter of fact, the early Christians fought against this idea a heresy. It was the Gnostics who combine Christianity with Greek philosophy who taught this doctrine and the Christians fought against it vehemently. However, That;s not what this thread is about. It's about the inheritance.

This thread is about 2 Corinthians 1 and 5 and therefore the Hebrew is relevant in those full text verses. Chopping up scripture to make it seem like the reformation had something to do with altering God's plan that started in the OT and was fulfilled in the New so as to insist eternal salvation is not real is not of God's actual words in all the Bible.

You live believing as you do and defend here. That's your free choice.

 

[FreeGrace]

I would submit that it is the promise of God, the inheritance.

In fact, it isn't a promise that is guaranteed, but what the promise STATES that is guaranteed. It seems that isn't being understood.

iow, God isn't guaranteeing a promise of some sort. He's guaranteeing WHAT He has already promised.

The word guarantee isn't in the original text. The Greek word actually means a down payment.

Is this an argument that when God makes a down payment He can renege on that? Where does the Bible teach that?

And why, out of 28 translations, 6 directly use "guarantee", and many of the others use "promise" and "earnest", which are synonymous with "guarantee".

 

[Butch5]

This thread is about 2 Corinthians 1 and 5 and therefore the Hebrew is relevant in those full text verses. Chopping up scripture to make it seem like the reformation had something to do with altering God's plan that started in the OT and was fulfilled in the New so as to insist eternal salvation is not real is not of God's actual words in all the Bible.

You live believing as you do and defend here. That's your free choice.

The letters to the Corinthians were written in Greek, not Hebrew. To translate the Greek to Hebrew is irrelevant. However, as I said, this idea of once saved always saved did not enter the church until the Reformers. For 1400 years that idea was rejected. It wasn't until the Reformers decided to rebel against the church that this idea gained a foothold. Something that wasn't in the church until 1500 years after it started surely isn't Biblical.

 

[SytheF]

A further study reveals it to be a pledge that is made by a groom, to a bride, showing His intention toward her is that of commitment.



JLB

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I
SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

That's just how it goes. Thank God!

 

[SytheF]

In fact, it isn't a promise that is guaranteed, but what the promise STATES that is guaranteed. It seems that isn't being understood.

iow, God isn't guaranteeing a promise of some sort. He's guaranteeing WHAT He has already promised.


Is this an argument that when God makes a down payment He can renege on that? Where does the Bible teach that?

And why, out of 28 translations, 6 directly use "guarantee", and many of the others use "promise" and "earnest", which are synonymous with "guarantee".

Oh, I think it is being understood. I think that's why there are so many aligned against it.

 

[Butch5]

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I
SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

That's just how it goes. Thank God!

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I
SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

That's just how it goes. Thank God!

Jesus said that to the Jews. However, one of them was lost.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Jn. 17:12 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace]

I have no objection to Romans 11:29.

I do disagree with isolating this verse and taking it out of context.

Sure. What is the context for "gifts of God". Good question. And we know specifically what Paul was referring to, since he specifically mentioned 3 of God's gifts in Romans before he penned 11:29.
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

That is the context for 11:29 and God's gifts.

Do you understand that Paul is teaching that the Jews who fell into unbelief, and were subsequently "broken off" from covenant relationship, in which the Gentiles who believed we "grafted in", as it were, to the natural olive tree.

• 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

In addition Paul warns the now believing Gentiles, that they could suffer the same fate, if they do not continue.

• 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

He also says these Jews who fell into unbelief, and are now enemies of the Gospel and were removed from covenant relationship, can indeed be grated back in, IF they do not continue in unbelief.

• 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

Please point out every mention of "gift" in Romans 9-11.

How can "gifts" refer to eternal life, when the context shows that the "gifts and calling" are referring to enemies of the Gospel in verse 28.

Because context isn't limited to just one verse previous to the verse in question.

And because Paul specifically mentioned 3 of God's gifts before he penned 11:29.

That's why.

His call to them is irrevocable.

Yes. And so are all of His gifts, which include the gift of eternal life.

Their unbelief is clearly a reference to them once believing, but then falling into unbelief, and being "cut off" from the covenant.

Please cite the exact verse that speaks of the Jews unbelief as following belief. I believe that is just an opinion, without facts.

And once more, Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

The claim that salvation can be lost contradicts what Jesus said in John 10:28.

He gave no conditions to recipients of eternal life. If salvation could be lost, He would have HAD TO include specific conditions in John 10:28 in order to never perish. But He didn't do that.

 

[for_his_glory]

A further study reveals it to be a pledge that is made by a groom, to a bride, showing His intention toward her is that of commitment.



JLB

Just as we pledge our allegiance to Christ as we commit or another word surrender all we are to Him. If we are no longer commited then we no longer pledge our allegiance to Him, but that of the world.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, the promise of God is to those who believe.

It's better than that. It's to those who have been given eternal life, as Jesus noted in John 10:28.

Those who believe for a while, then fall into unbelief, will not obtain the promise of eternal life.

Several errors here.

First error: falling into unbelief isn't a condition to avoid for never perishing. Or Jesus would have mentioned it clearly in John 10:28. But He didn't. He would have had to say this: I give them eternal life, and (IF) or (AS LONG AS DON'T FALL INTO UNBELIEF/CONTINUE IN THE FAITH) they shall never perish. But we don't find any such wording.

Why don't we just take this up in a one on one debate, like the man suggested.
JLB

deleted

Those who follow these threads know that I've provided a biblically solid explanation of EVERY verse and passage you've provided as "support" for your view, which shows that they aren't about losing salvation at all.

How many of the verses I've provided have been given an explanation to show they don't teach eternal security? None.

 

[FreeGrace]

Amen, I agree.

Confident expectation.

I have never said anything about "wishful thinking".

I'm glad you have come to the realization, that salvation will be obtained as an end result of our faith, when the Lord comes.

Now that you have admitted that, the rest will fall into place, as you study.

May the Lord bless you with His wisdom as you study these things.
JLB

Nice try, but no dice.

Our confident expectation is not salvation, but an eternity with God. Salvation is a gift of God that is possesses WHEN we believe. Or do you not agree with what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 6:47?

I've shown that eternal life is POSSESSED WHEN one believes. It's not some far away promise.

What is far away is eternity itself.

Those with discernment will understand this easily.

 

[FreeGrace]

A further study reveals it to be a pledge that is made by a groom, to a bride, showing His intention toward her is that of commitment.
JLB

Just as God is fully commited to those who have believed in His Son for salvation. He places the Holy Spirit as a down payment, a pledge, all of which is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption. This is eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just as we pledge our allegiance to Christ as we commit or another word surrender all we are to Him. If we are no longer commited then we no longer pledge our allegiance to Him, but that of the world.

His commitment to those who have believed in His Son continues, as seen in Eph 1:14. Whether one dislikes the word "guarantee" or not, that is exactly what God does for those who have believed. Their inheritance for the day of redemption is guaranteed or secured.

And God never lies. Heb 6:18