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What the Abomination REALLY is

I have to agree with Osgiliath on this one.
As to what Josephus said'
"NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame "


Sounds to me like Josephus said not only was the western wall left but so were three towers.

But after Jesus told his disciples about one stone not being left upon another in Mat 24;2,and his disciples ask him when these things shall be Jesus goes on to teach them about the end.
Mt 24;14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;and then shall the end come.

I myself didnt hear this gospel of the kingdom till 1998.
 
There is also a spiritual, personal growth in grace unto maturity, fulfillment of our Lord's prophecy.

It also is true for the body of Christ in its entirety, the family of priests.

The worship of the Lord through Judaism and its temple service was glorious. The fear of the Lord comes to us through the wrath of God revealed in its process. Out of this wrath the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ is revealed to us. When the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ is shed abroad into the 4 corners of our hearts then the kingdom is handed over to the Father, in our hearts and minds, and the Son is also subject to the Father, in our understanding. Jesus, the Christ, our Lord, still remains our Head, our Lord, our God, the Chief Cornerstone of the temple of which we are a member of the family of priests.

We recognize the Abomination in its outward manifestation because we have seen it at work in our own bodies and warring against our allegiance to our Lord and God, Jesus Christ. The Abomination comes to world in the name of Jesus. Our Lord said to not go after it. It is like Baal-Peor. It is desired to make a person wise and to have plenty for years to come.

Joe
 
[quote="Shilohsfoal"

Mathew
You do know that Josephus lied to his own people to save his own neck dont you?
He had his own people murder each other till he was left and gave himself up to the Romans.It wasnt like he understood what was happening at the time because his own wife and parents died in Jerusalem.Dont make the man out to be a saint cause hes not.He wasnt a christian and didnt follow the lamb.In other words he had no eyes to see or ears to hear.He should have stuck with recording history and not attempted to interpret scripture .But since there are so many in Israel that believe Joesephus,they wont have a clue when they are faced with such an abomination.Josephus said the abomination of desolation was set up in 168 bc claiming it was a stature of zeus and his teachings are taught by those in Israel today who do wickedly against the covenant.Not that they even know what the covenant is for they themselves deny Christ before men and say Christ has not come in the flesh.
These students of Josephus have no clue what is coming thier way.

Dan 11;32
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt with flatteries;but the people that do know thier God shall be strong and do exploits.[/quote]

Greetings shilohsfoal: I am very aware of the character of Josephus. He is, nonetheless, an eyewitness to the events of the Jewish Wars, and there is much we can learn from his writings. All historians are men/women with sin natures and as such are given to exploitation, bias, and error. We don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

The important issue, however, is what the Scriptures say. Jesus told that first-century Jewish leadership that they were guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth and that THEIR house (i.e. Herod's Temple) would be left unto THEM desolate (Mat. 23). It was that very Temple from which Jesus had just emerged that was to be destroyed. Jesus said not one stone HERE would be left upon another of THAT Temple--I believe Him.

Furthermore, to those very disciples there with Jesus, He said: "When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . " (Mat. 24:15). When would it happen? "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (emphasis mine). This is plain language and can only be misunderstood if someone seeks to make it say something it doesn't say. Every time Jesus used the expression "this generation," He meant His contemporaries. Always!

Those Jews upon whom Jesus pronounced the woes of Matthew 23 are of those very Jews whom Paul said would be troubled with the same trouble they brought upon the first-century, pre-A. D. 70 saints (e.g. the Thessalonians) AT HIS APPEARING (2 Thes. 1). In other words, Jesus was to come to give rest and relief to those flesh-and-blood saints of that pre-A. D. 70 time frame. At the same time, He brought tribulation upon those Jewish enemies of the Church! His appearing was to those of that generation.

Mathhew24:34
 
"Matthew24:34"
He brought tribulation upon those Jewish enemies of the Church! His appearing was to those of that generation.

Mathhew24:34

I dont ever remember reading anywhere that Jesus appeared to anyone in 70 ad.
Who was the eye witness that saw that?
 
Originally posted by Matthew 24:34
Jesus said not one stone HERE would be left upon another of THAT Temple--I believe Him.

Do I have to post the same thing again? There WAS one stone upon another, even in THAT Temple! Reread my last post! Jesus was talking about complete annihilation, not rubble, even if the rubble was only sand that remained. We are talking about the Wrath of God consummating the ‘end’ of this Earth Age. You know, the Guy up there that has the power to create billions of galaxies 100,000 light years across, each with billions of stars - each star having the volume of over a million earths. You know, that God. When the God that created a universe 20 billion light years in diameter gets ticked off, you don’t think he can vaporize an itty bitty stone Temple on an itty bitty stone planet in the cosmos? Please! And why is time such a difficult concept with preterists? 2,000 years is nothing to God. To us it might seem like a long time, but it’s only two days with God:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And Shiloh is correct. When did Jesus appear between The Ascension and 70 AD (aside from visitations to Paul and John)? For decades (including my own extensive research), preterists have been telling me that others misunderstand them, and just follow what others have said. Nonsense! Now’s your chance Matthew; explain it to me so I finally understand. Convince me. Show me what I have missed in my study of the Scriptures from multiple manuscripts over a 30 year period. I really want to be able to comprehend why you would possibly choose to think the way you do. All I ever see or hear is a few passages repeated (the same few), without ever tying in ALL of the Scriptures on the whole. Please, fill me in. :shrug
 
I was under the impression that every eye would see Jesus when he comes.So if he he came in 70 ad ,somebody was bound to see him yet no one ever wrote a word about it.

Rev 1;7
Behold,he cometh with clouds;and every eye shall see him,and they also which pierced him;and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.Even so,Amen.
 
Originally posted by Shilohsfoal
I was under the impression that every eye would see Jesus when he comes.So if he he came in 70 ad ,somebody was bound to see him yet no one ever wrote a word about it.

That's a very good point (and obvious, or so I thought). That's what I've always understood to be true. Maybe it's just me, but I just never got their whole thing. There is also this:


Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Notice the question in verse 24:3; “……..the end of the world (or the age = aiÃ…Ân) with definite article - and don't forget the emphatic definite article; 'the' = ho hÄ“ to). Was 70 AD the end of 'the' world; or the end of 'the' age? Hardly! If it was, then what we have right here and now is the New Heaven and New Earth. I don't know about you, but if that were the case, I would have expected more :D.
 
Osgiliath said:
I don't know about you, but if that were the case, I would have expected more :D.
Spoken like a first century Jew rejecting a particular Nazarene, because He wasn't spectacular enough to be the Messiah. :yes
 
Originally posted by Sinthesis
Spoken like a first century Jew rejecting a particular Nazarene, because He wasn't spectacular enough to be the Messiah.


Ohhhhh.....da-dum-dum! :lol Gotta keep my eye on the punster here. Anyway, I wasn’t at all referring to the Messiah in that particular sentence. But I’m sure you knew that already :approve .
 
Context and audience relevance are key principles to proper exegesis. Another key element is that Scripture interprets Scripture. With these things in mind, let's reconsider such things as the "end of the age," "every eye shall see Him," and the "new heavens and new earth" in their contexts and with proper attention to the clear time frame given.

About what age did the disciples ask Jesus? We find some insights in Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Jesus is above all things "not only in THIS age but also in that which is ABOUT to come." What age were they then living? In the age of Judaism--in the age of the shadows and types (Old Covenant, Temple, priesthood, Mosaic Law, etc.). But there was an age that was then ABOUT to come. It was the age of the anti-types, the realities of all of the shadows (New Covenant, spiritual temple, Christian priesthood, law written in the heart, etc.). Paul speaks of this again in Colossians 2:16 in the context of the shadows in which they then lived, but they were shadows of the "things ABOUT to come." That was the great hope of THOSE first-century believers. We cannot separate them from our understanding of the NT teachings! See also Hebrews 6:5 which also speaks of an age ABOUT to come! In summary, the disciples were not asking Jesus about the end of the earth or the end of the world but the end of that OT system of physical shadows, the chief one being that very first-century Temple which Jesus clearly said would be totally destroyed. Not one stone HERE! It is obvious that Jesus was talking about Herod's Temple and its destruction. Will we believe Jesus' words?

Do we assess the Bible through empiricism or do we assess the Bible by the clear teachings of the Bible? Jesus clearly and without any ambiguity said that all the things of which He had spoken to His disciples on the Mount of Olives would take place in that generation! Do we because of a lack of "seeing" deny His words or do we seek to validate His words by studying the Scriptures? Because many stumble over Matthew 24:29-31 and cannot "see" how those things actually took place, they twist the meaning of "this generation." But this is not necessary if one will but put on Jewish glasses to see what those metaphors mean. These verses deal with prophetic, apocalyptic language that is common in the OT Scriptures. Did not God "come" in judgment against Egypt according to Ezekiel 32:7-8? Did God literally cover the heavens "and make its stars dark?" Did He literally cover the sun with a cloud?" Symbolic upheavals in the heavens and earth were often employed to emphasize God's wrath and judgment. Consider also God's jugment against Babylon as described by Isaiah (Isa. 13:9-10, 13). It was described as "the day of the Lord" and was "cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger" and would "lay the land desolate." The light from the heavenly bodies would be darkened. Did the heavens literally "shake." Did the earth literally move out of its place? Again, this is figurative, metaphorical, apocalyptic language commonly used by the prophets to describe God's coming in wrath against a nation or peoples! What about God's coming against Edom (see Isa. 34:4-5). Did the mountains actually melt with the blood of the slain? Were all the host of heaven dissolved? Were the heavens literally rolled up like a scroll? Did the Lord have a literal sword that was "filled with blood?" Of course not! Again, this is apocalyptic, figurative language. It is the same language found in Matthew 24 and should not be taken literally and pressed to involve actual physical occurrences! The timing for verses 29-31 is clearly given. "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." Preterists take Jesus at His word. Employing another very basic principle of exegesis reveals that Jesus always used that expression (this generation) to refer to His contemporaries--always!

As for seeing Him--notice Matthew 24:30. The "tribes of the land" were to see Him and mourn not everyone of all nations throughout all time! Why were the "tribes of the land" to see Him? Because THEY were to be judged for all the righteous blood shed on the earth (Matthew 23). That generation of Jews who had rejected Him, killed all the prophets sent to them, and who were guilty of putting to death the Lord of glory, was to "see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." How did they see that? They saw it in the destruction of their Temple and city, representative of God's favor upon them, favor which was take from them. More than a million Jews died in the Jewish Wars with Rome, many suffered horrible deaths within the walls of the city, and many were subsequently taken into captivity to other nations. Rome was not their ultimate enemy--God was! They had committed their last adulterous affair; they had disobeyed Him beyond recovery; all the woes Jesus pronounced upon that generation of "scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites" came to pass in fulfillment of Jesus' promise--"Behold, your house is left unto YOU desolate!"

This same timing is found in the book of Revelation. John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place because the time was then NEAR! (Rev. 1:1, 3). In that time that was to shortly take place in John's day, those who pierced Him and those tribes of the land were to "see" His coming. They saw His coming as clearly as their forefathers had seen God come against them through His instrument--Babylon! No Jew would have misunderstood that the wrath of God had come upon them! Clearly, they were those of the generation in which "those who pierced" Him lived!

Furthermore, every does not usually mean every all inclusively. If a youth attends a youth meeting and comes home and his parents ask him "who was there," He might easily say "Everyone was there." Did he mean everyone throughout the whole world throughout all time! Of course not! The context determines the extent of the "every." He meant every in the context of his youth group! Every eye of that generation of Jews and even of those who pierced Him saw the effects of His coming in the destruction of the city and the Temple. These things were great wonders of the world. People came from everywhere to marvel at them. The whole world at that time would have known of this destruction and would have surmised that somehow the God of the Jews had come in judgment upon them. According to Josephus, even the heathen Titus made such an assumption.

What about the "heavens and the earth?" These terms are often used symbolically or metaphorically. In Leviticus 26, for example, God describes what He will do FOR His people if they obey Him and do not worship idols and what He will do TO them if they "do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments" (vs. 14). For disobedience, He would "break the pride of your power" and "make YOUR HEAVENS like iron and YOUR EARTH like bronze." The heavens and earth here are representative of their world and their way of life. This is clearly borne out in Isaiah 65 where a distinction is made between God's physical people of the Old Covenant and His spiritual people of the New Covenant. God would repay the disbedient, "rebellious people who walk in a way that is not good . . . a people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face" (verse 2). This vengeance is described in the book of Revelation. In verses 6 and 7 we see the parallel to Matthew 23. God declares that He will repay those rebellious people for their iniquities and for the iniquities of their fathers together. His true servants are described in verses 13 through 15. They are His chosen and the elect and they would be called by another name (Christians). In the New Covenant, Christ created "new heavens and a new earth" and a "Jerusalem for rejoicing."

There is a confusion concerning the difference between the end of time and the time of the end. This is a big difference. The time of the end of what? It is the time of the end of the age not the end of the world. This confusion is propagated by a misunderstanding of "elements" (stoicheia) in 2 Peter 3. That term is never ever used of the chemical make up of the earth. It is always used of the rudiments or principles of man's understanding and way of life. That OT age with its principles of enslavement to the law was brought to an end (burned if you will) and all of its symbols were done away with (e.g. Temple, priesthood, sacrificial system) when Christ returned in judgment, put an end forever of the OT Jewish nation (old heavens and old earth) and established forever His new heavens and new earth--the Church!

Matthew 24:34
 
Mathew
It sounds like your saying the Romans was Jesus .
Again I ask,
Who was it that saw Jesus in 70 ad and wrote about it?
Who was the witness that told you Jesus appeared to anyone in 70 ad?
 
Originally posted by Matthew24:34
About what age did the disciples ask Jesus? We find some insights in Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Jesus is above all things "not only in THIS age but also in that which is ABOUT to come." What age were they then living? In the age of Judaism--in the age of the shadows and types (Old Covenant, Temple, priesthood, Mosaic Law, etc.). But there was an age that was then ABOUT to come. It was the age of the anti-types, the realities of all of the shadows (New Covenant, spiritual temple, Christian priesthood, law written in the heart, etc.). Paul speaks of this again in Colossians 2:16 in the context of the shadows in which they then lived, but they were shadows of the "things ABOUT to come." That was the great hope of THOSE first-century believers. We cannot separate them from our understanding of the NT teachings! See also Hebrews 6:5 which also speaks of an age ABOUT to come! In summary, the disciples were not asking Jesus about the end of the earth or the end of the world but the end of that OT system of physical shadows, the chief one being that very first-century Temple which Jesus clearly said would be totally destroyed. Not one stone HERE! It is obvious that Jesus was talking about Herod's Temple and its destruction.

Hi Matthew24:34,

I appreciate you taking the time to post a thorough reply. Since it covers a lot of ground, I’ll respond to one subject at a time. I believe you are blending two concepts here. The shadows that you speak of were in reference to Jesus Christ Himself, not a physical Temple:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building


The earthly temple had a veil that divided the building into two rooms. The first was called the Holy Place and the second, the Most Holy Place. The daily intercession of Jesus in Heaven’s temple was reflected in the daily ministry of the priests on Earth.

Hebrews 8:1-2 We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.â€Â

The heavenly Temple does not have or need a veil. Even if there had been a veil in Heaven’s temple, just like the earthly veil, its function would have terminated at the time of Jesus’ death. Before this, the High Priest was the only person allowed to enter the Most Holy place behind the veil for just a few minutes each year on the Day of Atonement. When Jesus paid the price, the temple veil was ripped open because temple services were no longer necessary. So the end of that OT system of physical shadows was not when the first-century ‘physical Temple’ was destroyed, but when Jesus paid the price and entered into the Most Holy place in Heaven’s Temple, and became our High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


Hebrews 7:15 And what we say is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
7:16 who hath been made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life:
7:17 for it is witnessed of him, Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchizedek.


When the veil of the earthy Temple was rent from ‘top to bottom‘, it meant that the way to Christ, and the Most Holy place was open to all who chose to follow the Anointed One.

This was the end of that system of shadows, and the end of that ‘age’. It had nothing to do with the destruction of the ‘physical temple’ in 70 AD which was already ‘dead’ once Christ paid the price and the veil was rent. It was done, and it was now the time to worship in Spirit:

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.
4:22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.
4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.


Since Calvary (not the destruction of the physical temple in 70 AD), the corporate intercession of our High Priest; Jesus Christ on behalf of the whole world continues in Heaven’s Temple.
 
If I may, i believe you two are referring to different prophecies. Jesus, in John 2, is referring to the three nights and three days prophecy pointing to His death and resurrection. Jesus, in Matthew 24, is referring to the prophecy first revealed by Daniel 9:26.

At least, that's how I read it. :)
 
Originally posted by Vic C.
If I may, i believe you two are referring to different prophecies. Jesus, in John 2, is referring to the three nights and three days prophecy pointing to His death and resurrection. Jesus, in Matthew 24, is referring to the prophecy first revealed by Daniel 9:26.

Actually, though it may seem like we are ‘off topic’ a bit, we are simply broadening the subject somewhat, and discussing the ‘shadows’; or Old Testament processes or ceremonies in the Earthly Temple that have direct parallels with the Heavenly Temple. Since the books of Daniel and Revelation are based on ceremonies in Heaven’s Temple, the way to properly understand the ceremonies that take place in Heaven’s Temple is to examine the services that were conducted as a parallel on Earth. On the whole, it is very relevant to the thread topic, even though it may appear otherwise. ;)
 
No, I'm not suggesting it's off topic, I just got the impression, from my understanding of scripture, that you two were talking about different prophecies.
 
Originally posted by Vic C.
No, I'm not suggesting it's off topic, I just got the impression, from my understanding of scripture, that you two were talking about different prophecies.

Oh, I see now :yes. Yes, that is why I mentioned the ‘two concepts’ in the third sentence of the post, and then proceeded to address Matthew24:34’s reference to ‘shadows’. It’ll all come around in the end :D. It never hurts to cover all the bases at any rate. :wink3
 
What the abomination really WAS was the surrounding of Jerusalem by the armies (of Rome) in A. D. 70 (Luke 21). Jesus told His disciples that THEY were to see it! "But when YOU [My disciples standing right here with Me] see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [YOU--My disciples standing right here with Me] know that its desolation is near" (Luke 21:20). That is the plain language of this passage!

Matthew24:34
 
I spent a half hour composing a Scriptural, well documented post addressing your misrepresented reference to Old Testament shadows, and all I get is more biased preterist rhetoric? :dunno Come on Matt, I know you can do better than that.
 
Osgiliath said:
I spent a half hour composing a Scriptural, well documented post addressing your misrepresented reference to Old Testament shadows, and all I get is more biased preterist rhetoric? :dunno Come on Matt, I know you can do better than that.

Osgiliath
You ever get the feeling that maybe sometimes,some people are just not ment to be helped?
 
Shilohsfoal said:
Osgiliath said:
I spent a half hour composing a Scriptural, well documented post addressing your misrepresented reference to Old Testament shadows, and all I get is more biased preterist rhetoric? :dunno Come on Matt, I know you can do better than that.

Osgiliath
You ever get the feeling that maybe sometimes,some people are just not ment to be helped?
Shilohsfoal and Osgiliath, we really are trying to help you. :amen
 
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