What the Abomination REALLY is

[Matthew24:34]

I spent a half hour composing a Scriptural, well documented post addressing your misrepresented reference to Old Testament shadows, and all I get is more biased preterist rhetoric? :dunno Come on Matt, I know you can do better than that.

Osgiliath
You ever get the feeling that maybe sometimes,some people are just not ment to be helped?

Yeah, I do!

Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I spent a half hour composing a Scriptural, well documented post addressing your misrepresented reference to Old Testament shadows, and all I get is more biased preterist rhetoric? :dunno Come on Matt, I know you can do better than that.

Osgiliath
You ever get the feeling that maybe sometimes,some people are just not ment to be helped?

Shilohsfoal and Osgiliath, we really are trying to help you. :amen

Ive got a question for you .
Why does the day of the Lord come upon people as a thief in the night when there are so many prophecies that precede it?

 

[Sinthesis]

Ive got a question for you .
Why does the day of the Lord come upon people as a thief in the night when there are so many prophecies that precede it?

2 Peter 3:3 - Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
2 Peter 3:13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:14 - Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Matthew 24:38 - For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 - But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 - Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Yeah, I do!

Matt, I'm the one trying to continue the conversation we were having, so if you are trying to help, then help. Considering you erred in your understanding of parallel temples and OT shadows, how am I to put any faith in your understanding concerning other Biblical matters? Instead of brushing this aside and side-stepping our conversation (that was beginning to go somewhere), why don’t you address my post Scripturally? You brought up the Old Covenant, and the shadows in the first place, why not continue the conversation and thoroughly address my post? Oh well; I really thought a thorough in-depth discussion was beginning Matt before you decided to fall back on shallow denominational monologue. Oh well, maybe some other time.

Anyway, at least you could address Shilohsfoal’s question that has still not been answered. That should be an easy one. Shilohsfoal said:

"I dont ever remember reading anywhere that Jesus appeared to anyone in 70 ad.
Who was the eye witness that saw that?"


Shiloh's question has not been addressed because it can not be refuted. Even if the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was a "coming" of Christ in predicted judgment, was it "this same Jesus coming again in like manner as you have seen him go up into heaven"

Acts 1:11 ... "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

If this happend in 70 AD, this is extremely difficult to swallow. If that were the case, words would seem to have lost all meaning. "We shall see Him as He is" and so be "like Him" (1 John 3:2) would also be misleading if A.D. 70 fulfilled it. "Every eye shall see Him" (Revelation 1:7) and "then shall you see" Him in His return coming "in great glory on the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 24:30) in the company of all His saints (1Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 19:11) and heralded by angels (1Th.4:16) in an event so spectacular that it cannot possibly be missed (Mattew 24:26-27) and "coming again to receive you unto myself, that where I am there you may be also" (John 14:3) etc.,etc. I could go on for pages and pages. To me, to hear that "Christ really did come in A.D. 70" reminds me of those against whom Jesus warned:

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
24:26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
24:27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

According to these very words of Christ, it would seem that those who try to convince us that Christ has come, announce by that very action that they are false prophets (Matthew 7:15-21).

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Anyway, enough with the obvious. I’m willing to get back into the original conversation Matt anytime you are. If not, I guess I’ll have to seek in-depth conversation elsewhere.

 

[Vic C.]

This is from a couple of years ago. I feel it is on topic, it's simplistic but it makes sense to me.

A.D.70

A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age

Future

The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history

R.C. Sproul, Last Days

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Vic C.

This is from a couple of years ago. I feel it is on topic, it's simplistic but it makes sense to me.

JM wrote:
A.D.70

[quote:u0gerxb5]A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age

Future

The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history

R.C. Sproul, Last Days[/quote:u0gerxb5]

I have no problem with that (of course if the "Rapture" he is referring to is AFTER the Tribulation ). I would also have to get into the specifics regarding "A coming (parousia) of Christ" (as in a figurative "coming" of Christ as far as a predicted judgment), but on the whole I can live with that analysis.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Yeah, I do!

Matt, I'm the one trying to continue the conversation we were having, so if you are trying to help, then help. Considering you erred in your understanding of parallel temples and OT shadows, how am I to put any faith in your understanding concerning other Biblical matters? Instead of brushing this aside and side-stepping our conversation (that was beginning to go somewhere), why don’t you address my post Scripturally? You brought up the Old Covenant, and the shadows in the first place, why not continue the conversation and thoroughly address my post? Oh well; I really thought a thorough in-depth discussion was beginning Matt before you decided to fall back on shallow denominational monologue. Oh well, maybe some other time.

Anyway, at least you could address Shilohsfoal’s question that has still not been answered. That should be an easy one. Shilohsfoal said:

"I dont ever remember reading anywhere that Jesus appeared to anyone in 70 ad.
Who was the eye witness that saw that?"


Shiloh's question has not been addressed because it can not be refuted. Even if the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was a "coming" of Christ in predicted judgment, was it "this same Jesus coming again in like manner as you have seen him go up into heaven"

Acts 1:11 ... "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

If this happend in 70 AD, this is extremely difficult to swallow. If that were the case, words would seem to have lost all meaning. "We shall see Him as He is" and so be "like Him" (1 John 3:2) would also be misleading if A.D. 70 fulfilled it. "Every eye shall see Him" (Revelation 1:7) and "then shall you see" Him in His return coming "in great glory on the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 24:30) in the company of all His saints (1Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 19:11) and heralded by angels (1Th.4:16) in an event so spectacular that it cannot possibly be missed (Mattew 24:26-27) and "coming again to receive you unto myself, that where I am there you may be also" (John 14:3) etc.,etc. I could go on for pages and pages. To me, to hear that "Christ really did come in A.D. 70" reminds me of those against whom Jesus warned:

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
24:26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
24:27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

According to these very words of Christ, it would seem that those who try to convince us that Christ has come, announce by that very action that they are false prophets (Matthew 7:15-21).

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Anyway, enough with the obvious. I’m willing to get back into the original conversation Matt anytime you are. If not, I guess I’ll have to seek in-depth conversation elsewhere.

Osgiliath: I do not engage in conversations with those who cannot be civil and Christlike.

In Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Ive got a question for you .
Why does the day of the Lord come upon people as a thief in the night when there are so many prophecies that precede it?

2 Peter 3:3 - Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
2 Peter 3:13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:14 - Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Matthew 24:38 - For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 - But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 - Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Greetings, Sinthesis: None of the verses you quoted were directed to us specifically. The context clearly concerns first and foremost those of that first-century generation. We are not the YE!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34

Osgiliath: I do not engage in conversations with those who cannot be civil and Christlike.

Huh?

You lost me there. I’ve been accused of many things, especially being too robotic or mechanical, but not uncivil or un-Christlike (well, who actually is Christlike ;) ). Are you actually serious, or is this simply a defense mechanism of some kind because you realize you have dug a hole that you can’t get out of using Scripture? Not sure what the story is there :dunno. Ok, whatever. If you change your mind, just let me know.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34

Osgiliath: I do not engage in conversations with those who cannot be civil and Christlike.

Huh?

You lost me there. I’ve been accused of many things, especially being too robotic or mechanical, but not uncivil or un-Christlike (well, who actually is Christlike ;) ). Are you actually serious, or is this simply a defense mechanism of some kind because you realize you have dug a hole that you can’t get out of using Scripture? Not sure what the story is there :dunno. Ok, whatever. If you change your mind, just let me know.

Osgiliath: Reread your posts, my friend. Reread the postsyou just posted. You accuse me of not engaging in in-depth conversations. You accuse me of using defense mechanisms because I have dug myself into a hole I cannot get out of! That is simply untrue, Osgiliath! I do NOT avoid any question. But it is difficult sometimes to address questions when many are thrown at me at one time. Furthermore, I have also taken great pains to explain myself, yet what I have posted has also been overlooked. Can we please start over and give each other the benefit of the doubt, refrain from sarcasm and insults and keep our conversations limited so that questions can be adequately answered?

Thank you.

In Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Ive got a question for you .
Why does the day of the Lord come upon people as a thief in the night when there are so many prophecies that precede it?

2 Peter 3:3 - Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
2 Peter 3:13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:14 - Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Matthew 24:38 - For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 - But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 - Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Greetings, Sinthesis: None of the verses you quoted were directed to us specifically. The context clearly concerns first and foremost those of that first-century generation. We are not the YE!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Mathew
The day of the Lord hasnt happened yet.

2 peter 3;7
But the heavens and the earth,which are now,by the same word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men.
3;8 But,beloved,be not ignorant of this one thing,that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one day.
3;9 The Lord is not slack conerning his promise,as some men count slackness;but is longsuffering to us-ward,not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repenyance.
3;10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat,the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

We can see the Lord keeping his promise in the book of Daniel 12;1-3 not long after the abomination is placed.So why would the day of the Lord come upon people as a thief in the night after all the signs that precede it?

Is this not the promise the Lord has made?
Daniel 12;1
And at that time shall Michael stand up,the great prince which stadeth for the children of thy people;and there shall be a time of trouble,such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time;and at that time thy people shall be deliverd,every one that shall be found written in the book.
12;2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
12;3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;and they that turn many to righousness as the stars for ever and ever.

 

[Vic C.]

... I have no problem with that (of course if the "Rapture" he is referring to is AFTER the Tribulation ). I would also have to get into the specifics regarding "A coming (parousia) of Christ" (as in a figurative "coming" of Christ as far as a predicted judgment), but on the whole I can live with that analysis.

Cool. Look at Sproul's list again though; He has the Day of the Lord preceding the resurrection and rapture/transformation. Without looking any further, I'd say he's posttrib or post trib/post wrath for those of us who see the trib and wrath as separate events.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Hello, Shilohsfoal: You gave me a lot to handle. I will deal first of all with 1 Peter since Peter himself reminded his first-century readers of what he had previously taught them. At first read, it appears as though Peter is describing the end of the world or earth, but a closer look dispels that notion. We can establish the timing of these things by considering what Peter has previously told them. In 1 Peter 1:5 Peter speaks of THEIR salvation being "READY to be revealed in the last time." They greatly rejoiced in that soon event but first they had to suffer "for a little while" (vs. 7). They did suffer under the persecutions of Rome and the Jews! Peter draws it all together in his closing remarks--"But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after YOU [those to whom Peter addressed his epistle] have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle YOU" (5:10).

This is the same salvation which Jesus predicted for His disciples standing right there with Him when He said "Now when these things begin to happen [YOU] look up and lift up YOUR heads, because YOUR redemption draws NEAR" (Luke 21-:28--describing the events leading up to A. D. 70). The Day of the Lord as described by Jesus and Peter was to bring both judgment and salvation and not the end of the world as we know it!

The disciples did not ask about the end of the world (kosmos) but about the end of the age (aion) in Matthew 24 (see also 13: 39, 40, 49; 24:3; 28:20; 1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26). Those of that day were living in the last days. Peter explained this on Pentecost by tying in what was happening then to that which was predicted by Joel (2:28-32). Paul clearly declared that the "ends of the ages have come" (1 Cor. 10:11). In chapter 7 of that book, Paul stated that "the time is short" and "the fashion of this world is passing away" (vss 29 and 31). The writer of Hebrews clearly stated that "in THESE last days" God had spoken to them in His Son! He also taught that the OT age was growing old, becoming obsolete and then READY to pass away (Heb. 8). The NT speaks of an age that then was and an age that was about to come (Matt. 12:32; Eph. 1:21; Heb. 6:5).

In is in the context of those last days in which Peter was then living that the scoffers came (see also 2 Peter 2 for a fuller description of them). Jude spoke of these same scoffers of that same "last time" (Jude 17). These scoffers were present in Jude's time! It is to them that Jesus came as a "thief in the night." They said "all things continue as they were since the creation." They went about eating and drinking, unconcerned about the doom that awaited them when they Roman armies surrounded them, killed over a million of them and dispersed the remainder into captivity. The saints, knowing the time because Jesus had warned them beforehand (Matthew 24:25), fled and escaped the city and the carnage!

In the context of 2 Peter we see that Peter and those to whom he was initially writing are very much in play in the events he describes. The reason Peter reminds them that God is not slack concerning His promises is because those scoffers were there in their presence asking "where is the promise of His coming." It was a real-life issue for those first-century saints. Peter tells them to trust in God's faithfulness and timeliness. They were only disturbed by the mocking of those scoffers of their day because they themselves believed that the Lord's coming was to be soon! THEY were looking for the day, hastening its arrival.

Since those were the last days as clearly defined by Scripture itself, how do we reconcile the passing away of the heavens "with a great noise," the melting of the "elements" with "fervent heat," and the burning up of the earth and the works in it? First of all, let's allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. The term "elements" is stoikeia in the Greek. It is never, ever used of the chemical makeup of the earth. Never. Stoikeia always deal with the principles and rudiments of beliefs and practices of men. It occurs seven times in the NT. How is it always used in other passages besides 2 Peter 3?

1. Galatians 4:3, 9 Paul uses the term two times. The context involves the Jews and the law (Torah) to which they were in bondage (the stoikeion). It is described as the "elements of the world!"

2. Paul uses the term again (2x) in Colossians 2:8 and 20 where he implores the Colossians to not be led away by philosophies and traditions of men (stoikeia--"elements of the world")!

3. Hebrews 5:12 The writer of Hebrews teaches that those who should be mature In the faith but were not needed to be taught again the first principles (stoikeia) of Christ or the fundamental doctrines.

These verses give strong precedent for NOT taking this term (stoikeia) as a reference to the material creation in 2 Peter 3! It is the end of the age of Judaism that is under consideration in the NT. It is the end of the elements of the priesthood, the temple, the sacrificial system, the physical city of Jerusalem and the genealogies that were to be destroyed at Christ's coming in wrath and judgment in A. D. 70. "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Jesus' own words--Matthew 24:34)! The "burning" of these elements or principles or philosophies of men is symbolic of this judgment!

This is getting much too long. I will try to deal with the "heavens and the earth" in another post. It is my understanding that these things are also representative of that age of Judaism that was then becoming obsolete and passing away and the new heavens and new earth refers to the Church!

Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Hello, Shilohsfoal: You gave me a lot to handle. I will deal first of all with 1 Peter since Peter himself reminded his first-century readers of what he had previously taught them. At first read, it appears as though Peter is describing the end of the world or earth, but a closer look dispels that notion. We can establish the timing of these things by considering what Peter has previously told them. In 1 Peter 1:5 Peter speaks of THEIR salvation being "READY to be revealed in the last time." They greatly rejoiced in that soon event but first they had to suffer "for a little while" (vs. 7). They did suffer under the persecutions of Rome and the Jews! Peter draws it all together in his closing remarks--"But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after YOU [those to whom Peter addressed his epistle] have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle YOU" (5:10).

This is the same salvation which Jesus predicted for His disciples standing right there with Him when He said "Now when these things begin to happen [YOU] look up and lift up YOUR heads, because YOUR redemption draws NEAR" (Luke 21-:28--describing the events leading up to A. D. 70). The Day of the Lord as described by Jesus and Peter was to bring both judgment and salvation and not the end of the world as we know it!

Matthew24:34

But 1 Peter was not a letter written to the jews in Jerusalem.It is written to other outside of Jerusalem.
1 peter 1;1
Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ,to the strangers scatterd throughout Pontus,Galatia,Cappaodocia,Asia,and Bithynia.

If your going to say that Peters letters were for those in Jerusalem concerning them leaving Jerusalem ,then why is Peter only addressing people who are not in Jerusalem?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Can we please start over and give each other the benefit of the doubt, refrain from sarcasm and insults and keep our conversations limited so that questions can be adequately answered?

Thank you.

In Christ, Matthew24:34

That’s fine. I admit, I may have thrown a bit too much sarcasm in there :yes. However, I do object to your claim that I insulted you. That is simply not the case. I may be a bit bold and aggressive, and I may get aggravated when an in-depth conversation (yes, started by your initial “in-depth†post ;) ) gets sidetracked by trivial pre-conceived religious views, rather than what the Word of God says “on it’s very ownâ€Â, but I did not insult you. And I didn’t accuse YOU of not being in-depth; I was simply letting you know that I preferred your “in-depth†posts (like the original) over your simplistic (relatively speaking) posts that reflect a biased religious position. So, I sincerely apologize for offending you (though that was not at all my intention), and let’s get back into the conversation .

My goal was to address the three major points you addressed (in-depth) in your post, with the first being Old Testament ‘shadows’. Let’s pick it up there so we can proceed to the next point. This was my response:

Hi Matthew24:34,

I appreciate you taking the time to post a thorough reply. Since it covers a lot of ground, I’ll respond to one subject at a time. I believe you are blending two concepts here. The shadows that you speak of were in reference to Jesus Christ Himself, not a physical Temple:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building

The earthly temple had a veil that divided the building into two rooms. The first was called the Holy Place and the second, the Most Holy Place. The daily intercession of Jesus in Heaven’s temple was reflected in the daily ministry of the priests on Earth.

Hebrews 8:1-2 We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.â€Â

The heavenly Temple does not have or need a veil. Even if there had been a veil in Heaven’s temple, just like the earthly veil, its function would have terminated at the time of Jesus’ death. Before this, the High Priest was the only person allowed to enter the Most Holy place behind the veil for just a few minutes each year on the Day of Atonement. When Jesus paid the price, the temple veil was ripped open because temple services were no longer necessary. So the end of that OT system of physical shadows was not when the first-century ‘physical Temple’ was destroyed, but when Jesus paid the price and entered into the Most Holy place in Heaven’s Temple, and became our High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 7:15 And what we say is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
7:16 who hath been made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life:
7:17 for it is witnessed of him, Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchizedek.

When the veil of the earthy Temple was rent from ‘top to bottom‘, it meant that the way to Christ, and the Most Holy place was open to all who chose to follow our High Priest.

This was the end of that system of shadows, and the end of that ‘age’. It had nothing to do with the destruction of the ‘physical temple’ in 70 AD which was already ‘dead’ once Christ paid the price and the veil was rent. It was done, and it was now the time to worship in Spirit:

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.
4:22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.
4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Since Calvary (not the destruction of the physical temple in 70 AD), the corporate intercession of our High Priest; Jesus Christ on behalf of the whole world continues in Heaven’s Temple.

Let's continue -

God Bless in Jesus Name

 

[Matthew24:34]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Can we please start over and give each other the benefit of the doubt, refrain from sarcasm and insults and keep our conversations limited so that questions can be adequately answered?

Thank you.

In Christ, Matthew24:34

That’s fine. I admit, I may have thrown a bit too much sarcasm in there :yes. However, I do object to your claim that I insulted you. That is simply not the case. I may be a bit bold and aggressive, and I may get aggravated when an in-depth conversation (yes, started by your initial “in-depth†post ;) ) gets sidetracked by trivial pre-conceived religious views, rather than what the Word of God says “on it’s very ownâ€Â, but I did not insult you. And I didn’t accuse YOU of not being in-depth; I was simply letting you know that I preferred your “in-depth†posts (like the original) over your simplistic (relatively speaking) posts that reflect a biased religious position. So, I sincerely apologize for offending you (though that was not at all my intention), and let’s get back into the conversation .

My goal was to address the three major points you addressed (in-depth) in your post, with the first being Old Testament ‘shadows’. Let’s pick it up there so we can proceed to the next point. This was my response:



[quote:1dvob6ju]Hi Matthew24:34,

I appreciate you taking the time to post a thorough reply. Since it covers a lot of ground, I’ll respond to one subject at a time. I believe you are blending two concepts here. The shadows that you speak of were in reference to Jesus Christ Himself, not a physical Temple:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building

The earthly temple had a veil that divided the building into two rooms. The first was called the Holy Place and the second, the Most Holy Place. The daily intercession of Jesus in Heaven’s temple was reflected in the daily ministry of the priests on Earth.

Hebrews 8:1-2 We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.â€Â

The heavenly Temple does not have or need a veil. Even if there had been a veil in Heaven’s temple, just like the earthly veil, its function would have terminated at the time of Jesus’ death. Before this, the High Priest was the only person allowed to enter the Most Holy place behind the veil for just a few minutes each year on the Day of Atonement. When Jesus paid the price, the temple veil was ripped open because temple services were no longer necessary. So the end of that OT system of physical shadows was not when the first-century ‘physical Temple’ was destroyed, but when Jesus paid the price and entered into the Most Holy place in Heaven’s Temple, and became our High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 7:15 And what we say is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
7:16 who hath been made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life:
7:17 for it is witnessed of him, Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchizedek.

When the veil of the earthy Temple was rent from ‘top to bottom‘, it meant that the way to Christ, and the Most Holy place was open to all who chose to follow our High Priest.

This was the end of that system of shadows, and the end of that ‘age’. It had nothing to do with the destruction of the ‘physical temple’ in 70 AD which was already ‘dead’ once Christ paid the price and the veil was rent. It was done, and it was now the time to worship in Spirit:

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.
4:22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.
4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Since Calvary (not the destruction of the physical temple in 70 AD), the corporate intercession of our High Priest; Jesus Christ on behalf of the whole world continues in Heaven’s Temple.

Let's continue -

God Bless in Jesus Name[/quote:1dvob6ju]

Greetings, my friend Asgiliath. Do you not see that you have just apologized by again making another insult! "Simplistic posts that reflect a biased religious position?" If you are going to make such an accusation, please spell it out. There are few people I have ever conversed with pn messageboards who spend as much time as I do establishing the audience relevance and the context of verses that I use. Where did I simply reflect a biased religious position?

Here is the problem, Asgiliath, as I see it. Many tend to post every verse they can find in order to attempt to support their position. Few I believe ever take the time to look at those verses in their context. I try never to do that. I try beyond what most do to NOT present a "biased religious position" and so to be accused of such a thing is very insulting.

When people present verses to me--lots of verses--it is very difficult for me to deal with them because I will insist on studying them thoroughly in their context taking into consideration the historical setting, the reason the author wrote what he wrote and to whom he wrote it. Since departing from the real biased religious position of dispensationalism which I was taught at a dispensational seminary, I have determined to not let others (including my own biases) get in the way of what the words of the Scriptures say!

There are times when just a quick response is given to a question. That does not mean that someone is engaging in "religious bias." If I post something that seems to be biased in anyway and not reflective of sound doctrine and sound hermeneutical principles, simply ask me to elaborate. What you may be wrongly viewing as "religious bias" might simply be a quick answer to a complicated issue.

If you really knew me rather than assuming that you know me, you would know that I take great, great pains to assertain as much as possible what a passage is saying--in its context and by doing word studies and cross-referencing and historical investigations. Will I not be instructed? Of course I will. But I will insist that such instruction be given from the instructor's personal, indepth, audience relevant, contextual study of the passages that are often ripped out of context in order to support those who really have religious biases!

I do not know you. I will assume that you are a student of God's Word and that you approach the Scriptures with this type of respect. Please afford me the same honor and we can proceed. Thank you.

Sincerely and in Christ, Matthew23:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Sorry Matt. I apologize once again. Without a Vulcan mind-meld or something, I cannot tell whether or not you researched something thoroughly, or just threw some Scripture out there off the cuff. I'm sorry, but some of the posts, with the words that I see written in front of me, "appear" as though they originate from a pre-conceived point of view, because I have seen the same thing before, over and over. Now, reading your last post, I realize that is not the case with you (because you explained yourself). So, let's forgive and forget and get on with the conversation. It has the potential to be a real good one, so let's not blow it. Let's proceed -

 

[Matthew24:34]

What the abomination really is=
Rev 13;13-16
And he doeth great wonders,so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And decieveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;saying to them that dwell on the earth,that they should make an image to the beast,which had the wound by the sword,and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,that the image of the beast should both speak,and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all,both small and great,rich and poor,free and bond,to recieve a mark in thier right hand,or in thier foreheads;

Greetings, Shilohsfoal: Where in Revelation 13 is the "abomination of desolation" stated? Furthermore, did the disciples who were right there with Jesus (Matthew 24) see it? Clearly, Jesus looked right at THEM and said "When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . "(Mat. 24:15)! Again, you will never understand what these things mean unless and until you recognize and accept the clear time restraints placed upon the Book of Revelation. What do you think about--"SHORTLY take place" and the "time is NEAR" (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10)? The Beast and the mark are all things to be found in that time frame and none other!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Sorry Matt. I apologize once again. Without a Vulcan mind-meld or something, I cannot tell whether or not you researched something thoroughly, or just threw some Scripture out there off the cuff. I'm sorry, but some of the posts, with the words that I see written in front of me, "appear" as though they originate from a pre-conceived point of view, because I have seen the same thing before, over and over. Now, reading your last post, I realize that is not the case with you (because you explained yourself). So, let's forgive and forget and get on with the conversation. It has the potential to be a real good one, so let's not blow it. Let's proceed -

Fair enough, Osgiliath! I would love to continue with those who want to really dig in and do the necessary work to rightly divide the word of Truth. We probably will not agree on many things, but I endeavor to approach the Scriptures with the respect and honor they deserve by always trying to not give them a meaning that was never intended. I also endeavor to be open to changing my views IF I can be persuaded through sound exegetical principles that I am wrong!

I ascertain that you also desire such a thing. If I fail to present my arguments with sound hermeneutical principles (e.g. context, audience relevance, historical setting, etc.), please feel free to point that out as I want to understand TRUTH.

I would love to discuss these things in such a manner because such an approach is extremely rare on these boards (and sadly far too rare throughout our churches)! Let's start over, my friend!

In Christ, Matthew24:34