ezra
Member
its only false because it does not line up with your belief
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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What was Paul teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2?
- Thread starter Nathan12
- Start date
There is no scripture in the Bible that teaches a Pretrib Rapture.
None.
The resurrection and rapture happen at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
The destruction of the wicked also happen at His coming.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
It’s crystal clear.
The coming of the Lord is His second coming.
He puts an end to all rule at His coming, when He returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
His coming marks the end of the age.
JLB
Of course it's false as it does not line up with what I believe according to what has already been written. Man adds to scripture of that which is not there. They ignore the scriptures that state that Christ returns on the last day as He returns in the air and destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming as He only has to speak the words of their destruction casting them into the lake of fire.
Scripture states this happens immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Sure there is.
Please reconsider your statement.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
JLB
These scriptures give the exact time by Jesus giving us signs to watch for His coming. Not in hours or minutes, but in times of the day.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
None of us knows when the son of perdition will take his seat in Jerusalem, but when he does we know it will be for 3 1/2 years. After the 3 1/2 years are finished then the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven who comes in the clouds the same way He ascended up to heaven.
Nathan12
Member
Christians need to understand that there is a definite and logical SEQUENCE OF EVENTS which are all included in the metaphorical "last day" (a period in excess of 1,000 years), and is not the same as "the last days" (plural). What you have presented above is a jumble of events seemingly happening on the same day. But here is the progression seen in Scripture (not in the doctrines of men):
1. The Resurrection/Rapture
2. The Revelation of the Antichrist
3. The Tribulation
4. The Abomination of Desolation
5. The Great Tribulation
6. The shaking of the heavens and the earth
7. The Second Coming of Christ
8. The battle of Armageddon
9. The destruction of the Antichrist
10. The establishment of the Millennium
The resurrection
The rapture
The destruction of the antichrist
All three take place at His coming.
This is crystal clear, and irrefutable in the scriptures.
The resurrection and rapture happen at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
The destruction of the wicked also happen at His coming.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
The coming of the Lord is His second coming.
He puts an end to all rule at His coming, when He returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
His coming marks the end of the age.
JLB
Again no scripture and now you are adding two tribulations! I'm not adding scripture to what I am about to post as from Rev 8:6 - Rev Chapter 21 is all in sequence.
When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14.
God's protection is absolute to those who escape into the wilderness and trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.
Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.
God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever.
Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our well being will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.
This great mountain burning with fire could be another meteor or even a series of meteors sent down from heaven at one time, but on an extremely larger scale as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.
These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.
With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.
Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.
Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.
This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.
This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God. Luciferian reign on eath will Christ then
After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clods as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake.Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.
dianegcook
Member
Nathan, you quoted John 14:1-3
Let's take a look at that.
Jesus was talking to His disciples and of course us, Jesus was speaking about His death, John 13:36
Telling them to not be troubled, in My Father's house are many mansions.
Mansions mean ABODE, ,Strong's #3438, Greek
I will come again, and receive you unto Myself.
John 14:5
Thomas Saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest, and how can we know the way?
The disciples were not raptured.
Read on,
John 14:16-23
And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may ABIDE with you for ever.
Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him, but ye know Him, for He DWELLETH WITH YOU, and shall BE IN YOU.
I will not leave you comforter, I WILL COME TO YOU.
Yet, a little while, and the world seeth Me no more, but ye see Me, because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I AM IN MY FATHER, and YE IN ME, and I IN YOU.
If a man love Me, he will keep My Words, and My Father will love him, and WE WILL COME UNTO him, and make OUR ABODE with him.
We rest in Jesus, our abode.
I really don't see this as being the rapture , imho.
dianegcook
Member
I also disagree about the Holy Spirit being taken away.
Let's take a look at that.
2Thess.2:3-8
Let no man DECEIVE you by any means, for that day, ( the day of the gathering) shall not come, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Clearly stated here, that the gathering will happen after the falling away, apostasy, and Satan being revealed.
In verse 7, I believe this was your opinion of the Holy Spirit being taken away.
My opinion is different.
Michael letteth. In Rev.12:7-9 Michael fought against the Dragon and his angels, and they were cast out of heaven.
Until Satan be taken out of the way. The subject is referring to Satan sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, in verse 4.
Verse 8
That wicked be revealed,
Verse 3
That Day shall not come until that son of perdition be revealed.
So the gathering takes place AFTER the Son of perdition is revealed.
The temple,
It could be the temple we have now, in Jerusalem, doesn't matter, because it will be thrown down, not one stone left upon another, Christ will destroy it.
Nathan12
Member
And that's your evidence that John 14:1-3 is not about the Rapture? Of course they were not raptured, and it is still future event. But "we rest in Jesus and He is our abode" is not even a proper exegesis of what He actually stated. So kindly read that passage for what it actually says.
"I go to prepare a place for you" is clearly about Christ returning to Heaven, not Him coming to indwell His people.
"I will come again" was a promise to literally and physically return for His saints (whether immediately or later would be determined by the completion of the Church) from Heaven, and then return to Heaven where there is a literal heavenly city -- the New Jerusalem -- and within it are those literal mansions (abodes). And thus we have several passages later which fill out the doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture.
The New Jerusalem is the present home of all the saints (both OT and NT) and at the Resurrection/Rapture all the saints will be glorified and return to Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb (the Church being the Bride of Christ).
dianegcook
Member
Hi Nathan
No, it is not my evidence, I have plenty, but it was your evidence, I thought.
In verse 18 it states,
I will not leave you comfortless, I WILL COME TO YOU.
Verse 23, We will COME UNTO HIM, and make OUR ABODE with him.
Jesus had to leave, so that the Holy Spirit would come.
His Spirit abiding in us.
Yes, He is /was preparing a place, abode, for us, especially the disciples and the 12 patriarchs .
Rev.21:12-14
12 gates, names written thereon, the names of the 12 tribes.
12 foundations, names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.
To each his own
dianegcook
Member
Just wanted to add, that you said, in 2Thess.2:1-3
That the rapture and the 2nd coming are 2 events...
It clearly states in verse 3, THAT DAY shall not come,
It doesn't state that day and another day, that day, one day not 2.
Wish you would reconsider, care about ya, When Satan comes, showing himself as Christ, his message might be, gather unto me, so I can rapture you.
Just about everyone will run to him, every nation,every religion, even nonbelievers.
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also, for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
When would one think not? They think Christ is already here.
Matt.24:44
In Matt.24:23-26
They will say, Christ is here, or there, DO NOT GO, BELIEVE IT NOT....
1Thess.5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them.
Satan will say peace, Dan.8:25, by peace shall destroy MANY.
Cause the destruction of his soul.
Christ wants you to remain faithful, watch watchman, so the thief will not steal your soul.
1Thess.5:4-6
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
We are the children of light..
Let us not sleep, as do others, but let us watch and be sober.
You don't sleep on a watch. Watch for the thief....
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
What you have said does not line up with what has already been written. Why do you believe theories over that of scripture.
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Nathan12
Member
What I have said simply does not line up with your misunderstanding of Bible prophecies and the logical and spiritual sequence of events. That is why you have posted Scriptures (in this post) which have absolutely nothing to do with the Resurrection/Rapture, neither are they all jumbled up as one event in the Bible. I simply cannot understand why Christians resist following the sequence of events which God has plainly laid out. And then to spiritualize what is plainly literal simply adds to the confusion.
Nathan12
Member
This is hilarious, since the Church will be absent when the Antichrist takes control on earth!
Nathan12
Member
And that is a different matter altogether. Christ presently comes to every believer and indwells every believer. Therefore Paul says "Christ in you the hope of glory". By no means does this cancel out the Bible doctrine of the Rapture of the Church, which again is distinct from the Second Coming of Christ.
We should try to put things in their proper context, since the Bible is not a textbook of Systematic Theology. You will note, particularly in the Prophets, that various events at different times are all presented as though they are all happening at the same time. That is why we need to discern what is written, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
In post #29 and 35 I gave the actual events in order that will happen before the second coming of Christ on the last day as what is already written. The order of the trumpets are from one to seven, Rev 8:6 - Rev chapter 22.
I notice you use websites to study from for your information just like I use to years ago, but no longer as so much of what they teach does not line up with scripture no matter how hard I tried to make it line up.
I would never tell anyone what they believe is erroneous or that they have no understanding of logical or Spiritual things. All we can do is to discuss our indifference's by sharing the scriptures in the hope we will all come to unity in truth.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
From Matthew 24:4-26 Jesus explains everything that will happen from that time forward including the abomination of desolation that will stand in the holy place being in the holy city of Jerusalem that Daniel prophesied of in Daniel chapters 7-9. Paul also taught about the same abomination that causes desolation in 2 Thessalonians 3:3-12 that will wear out the saints of God.
Jesus proceeds to tell His disciples as they sat on the mount of Olives with Him what sign to look for of His second coming and of the end of the world, This is Jesus answer below.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus also said in Matthew 24:36-44 that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming other than it will be likened as in the days of Noah when the flood came and many were swept away, but to watch and be prepared for His return so He does not come to you as a theif in the night.
I truly can not understand why pretribbers refuse to believe the answers Jesus gave to His disciples that day as they all sat on the mount of Olives.
From Matthew 24:4-26 Jesus explains everything that will happen from that time forward including the abomination of desolation that will stand in the holy place being in the holy city of Jerusalem that Daniel prophesied of in Daniel chapters 7-9. Paul also taught about the same abomination that causes desolation in 2 Thessalonians 3:3-12 that will wear out the saints of God.
Jesus proceeds to tell His disciples as they sat on the mount of Olives with Him what sign to look for of His second coming and of the end of the world, This is Jesus answer below.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus also said in Matthew 24:36-44 that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming other than it will be likened as in the days of Noah when the flood came and many were swept away, but to watch and be prepared for His return so He does not come to you as a theif in the night.
I truly can not understand why pretribbers refuse to believe the answers Jesus gave to His disciples that day as they all sat on the mount of Olives.