what would real satanism look like

[BrainForAReason]

I came to this forum to pose this one question and I will probably leave soon after. If it's in the wrong place, sorry and thank you if you move it.

First I don't believe in the literal idea of Satan or anything close to a devil that is fighting god; God should surely have power over his own creations.
The idea I want to get into is not people that worship Satan but if Satan had made a religion with the idea of doing harm to humans. What would it look like if evil itself had made a book and started a cult?

I follow that old saying of the devil mixing his lies with truth and think that people that worship this religion would tell the rest of the world about the good parts and cover up the rest. Fundamentally the religion would probably center around poor morals and have many horrible things mixed in, but outwardly they might talk about love and peace. Satan might even bless the people that worship this fake religion, and give them false signs when they are in danger of leaving, God might even allow this type of thing to happen as a test.

So is it likely to you that some other religions have satanic influence or origin?
What makes you sure that Satan isn't the author of your bible?
When you think about it the whole new testament is based around accepting human sacrifice in a personal way to make your life (and afterlife) better.

An even more chilling thought, what if god wasn't fully good? could we tell and would we have hope?

---Full disclosure, I am an atheist, BUT I came only to learn more about how a person of faith approaches this problem. I'll be more then happy to answer any questions, but don't try to convert me and I won't try to de-convert you. Thank you and hope you enjoyed reading.

 

[Classik]

Welcome to CF.net, BredForAReason....sorry BrainForAReason

 

[Classik]

First I don't believe in the literal idea of Satan or anything close to a devil that is fighting god; God should surely have power over his own creations.

Good.
The devil doesn't fight God!! The devil is not fighting to frustrate God. He sure fights against human - 'cause he doesn't want to suffer alone.

1 Pet. 5:8
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devilprowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

The idea I want to get into is not people that worship Satan but if Satan had made a religion with the idea of doing harm to humans. What would it look like if evil itself had made a book and started a cult?

How do you define 'good' and 'evil'?

What makes you sure that Satan isn't the author of your bible?

Seems you are assuming a state of absolute bad?

 

[Classik]

You sound as if you believe God or devil exists.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I came to this forum to pose this one question and I will probably leave soon after.

Yea, we could have guessed all of that, from reading the rest of your post!

What would it look like if evil itself had made a book and started a cult?

A lot like Islam.

 

[reba]

It's not a problem His sheep know His voice.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[BrainForAReason]

How do you define 'good' and 'evil'?

Seems you are assuming a state of absolute bad?

I'll just simply say that for this question I define good and evil the same way you do. For this hypothetical the bible would be a tool to get people into hell so it would be trying to do the things that YOU personally feel would get people into hell.

Yes, I guess I did assume the devil as pure evil when I wrote that, sorry. You are free to assume him in as any shade of evil short of "a pretty good guy" as that would make the question rather pointless.

Thanks for your questions.

 

[BrainForAReason]

A lot like Islam.

Can I hear your reasoning for that?

 

[BrainForAReason]

It's not a problem His sheep know His voice.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I don't see what good quoting the bible does; it's not as if Satan would write a "Satan waz here!" in the bible. Whoever wrote it would want you to think that it was true.
What I'm asking is how do you know you can trust the bible?

 

[Pizzaguy]

Can I hear your reasoning for that?

No, don't care to respond.

What I'm asking is how do you know you can trust the bible?

Now there is a question worth answering!

But again, I have Japanese lessons starting in 14 minutes. Someone will grab that last question for you.

 

[Mike]

I'll be more then happy to answer any questions, but don't try to convert me and I won't try to de-convert you.

Well, thanks for that! I'm very relieved!

What I'm asking is how do you know you can trust the bible?

Oh, and you lasted so long! Welcome to CFnet!

You're obviously a very smart fellow. So, if you would, if you could, draw upon your terrific resources and imagine any answer at all, what kind of answer do you think would satisfy your question? There are almost as many reasons believers place their trust in the Lord as there are followers of Him. Can you fathom the kind of testimony that you would not dismiss, or that you could not dismiss even if you wanted to.

This is the old "Can God create a rock..." routines in reverse. Can you tell us what answer we could come with that would be acceptable to you? That will be my answer. If you cannot, why are you asking the question?

Evidences stemming from history, archeology, logic, faith, and an undeniable feeling all contribute to a believer trusting in him.

 

[reba]

sad comic relief
:yes

 

[BrainForAReason]

You're obviously a very smart fellow. So, if you would, if you could, draw upon your terrific resources and imagine any answer at all, what kind of answer do you think would satisfy your question? There are almost as many reasons believers place their trust in the Lord as there are followers of Him. Can you fathom the kind of testimony that you would not dismiss, or that you could not dismiss even if you wanted to.

This is the old "Can God create a rock..." routines in reverse. Can you tell us what answer we could come with that would be acceptable to you? That will be my answer. If you cannot, why are you asking the question?

Thanks for the warm welcome, reply and complement though I will never understand why anyone considers me smart.
You make a good point but seem to assume that my goal is to shoot down all refutes to my problem. What I really want to do is challenge all replies. If someone that believes in Satan makes any sort of refute to my problem and feels content in there answer after my challenges then that will be exactly what I came for. Even if the reply doesn't satisfy my question to my standards that will satisfy my curiosity.

As an atheist this problem is easy for me because I don't accept the idea of a devil so I can't accept the idea of a book being made by the Devil. That isn't quite enough to satisfy my curiosity so I want to know what happens when you can't cut the problem off short, and for me imagining a belief in Satan is award because all I know is what I've been told and a lot of that has been very different.

For an answer that I would accept (if this is still for some reason important to you), it's quite a bit different from logical arguments against god because I accept both god and the devil as a premise in this. Because I agreed with your ideas of god and your ideas of Satan the proof I would want is probably about the same as the proof you would want. Depending on your ideas of what Satan is I would accept history, archeology and logic as perfectly reasonable refusals to Satan as the creator of religions. Faith and the undeniable feeling doesn't help as much because this could be quickly written off as Satanic mind control, though I can see how this could be worked out as a larger part of a proof.

One last note is that I'm also really interested in how this works with other religions, not just Christianity.

 

[Mike]

Okay, then, so as to give you your opportunity to "challenge" my answers, here I go...

First and foremost is something no other person can refute, but that other Christians can relate to. Jesus said His sheep know His voice, and they listen to Him. I know Him, and I know His promise is HIS promise.

Satan is no more than a fallen angel, and angels wait upon the Lord as He unfolds His plan of Salvation. Satan is the father of lies, and he does not have knowledge of things of the future. He could not have prophesied the things that would pass which were written by His prophets.

Scripture was passed down through the generations by word of mouth. It's unimaginable to consider that entire books were memorized in order to be passed down word-for-word, but they were. It was self-corrected by others who also knew the Word. If someone were to alter it, others would know, just as we would know if someone were to change the words to our respective national anthems. There were still very many people alive when the Gospels were written who could have, would have, should have refuted them when they were disseminated if they were not true. Therefore, we know the Words credited to Jesus were His Words.

Those are just a few reasons I believe our God Inspired the Word.

 

[farouk]

I came to this forum to pose this one question and I will probably leave soon after. If it's in the wrong place, sorry and thank you if you move it.

First I don't believe in the literal idea of Satan or anything close to a devil that is fighting god; God should surely have power over his own creations.
The idea I want to get into is not people that worship Satan but if Satan had made a religion with the idea of doing harm to humans. What would it look like if evil itself had made a book and started a cult?

I follow that old saying of the devil mixing his lies with truth and think that people that worship this religion would tell the rest of the world about the good parts and cover up the rest. Fundamentally the religion would probably center around poor morals and have many horrible things mixed in, but outwardly they might talk about love and peace. Satan might even bless the people that worship this fake religion, and give them false signs when they are in danger of leaving, God might even allow this type of thing to happen as a test.

So is it likely to you that some other religions have satanic influence or origin?
What makes you sure that Satan isn't the author of your bible?
When you think about it the whole new testament is based around accepting human sacrifice in a personal way to make your life (and afterlife) better.

An even more chilling thought, what if god wasn't fully good? could we tell and would we have hope?

---Full disclosure, I am an atheist, BUT I came only to learn more about how a person of faith approaches this problem. I'll be more then happy to answer any questions, but don't try to convert me and I won't try to de-convert you. Thank you and hope you enjoyed reading.

Sir, what you say is equivalent to: prove to me what you believe, but don't try to do it with God's Word, the Bible.

Or, rather like meeting a messenger from the President of the United States, and saying: What do you want? but don't tell me anything that the President says.

Therefore, I have absolutely nothing to say.

By your own definition of what you want, until you are willing even to consider the matter of salvation from the consequences of sin by faith in the Saviour, then .....

 

[BrainForAReason]

First and foremost is something no other person can refute, but that other Christians can relate to. Jesus said His sheep know His voice, and they listen to Him. I know Him, and I know His promise is HIS promise.

This is John 10:26-29 again right? I don't see what good the bible does to show the bible is not inspired by Satan.

Satan is no more than a fallen angel, and angels wait upon the Lord as He unfolds His plan of Salvation. Satan is the father of lies, and he does not have knowledge of things of the future. He could not have prophesied the things that would pass which were written by His prophets.

But he could make reasonable guesses right? This comes down to how well the bible has foretold things. I'm not going to get into because it's not the time or the place (unless I'm asked to elaborate) so I'll call this a good answer if you are satisfied with it.

Scripture was passed down through the generations by word of mouth. It's unimaginable to consider that entire books were memorized in order to be passed down word-for-word, but they were. It was self-corrected by others who also knew the Word. If someone were to alter it, others would know, just as we would know if someone were to change the words to our respective national anthems. There were still very many people alive when the Gospels were written who could have, would have, should have refuted them when they were disseminated if they were not true. Therefore, we know the Words credited to Jesus were His Words.

I'm sorry I don't see the connection between knowing the bible is the word of god and seeing it accurately remembered (though this could never be proven) and not refuted. Couldn't this just as well be caused by Satan's abilities?

Thank you very much for all your answers, as far as I'm concerned everything after this is gravy. I hope everyone enjoying this as much as I am, Mike especially.

 

[BrainForAReason]

Sir, what you say is equivalent to: prove to me what you believe, but don't try to do it with God's Word, the Bible.

Or, rather like meeting a messenger from the President of the United States, and saying: What do you want? but don't tell me anything that the President says.

Therefore, I have absolutely nothing to say.

By your own definition of what you want, until you are willing even to consider the matter of salvation from the consequences of sin by faith in the Saviour, then .....

No not quite, I don't blame you at all for misunderstanding (I know theres a lot of people that offer questions like this made to do and prove things) but let me be clear. My goal is NOT to disprove god or the bible or anything else. My question is not made to be unanswerable, just the opposite.

First you have to understand that I came here to understand how people think and conclude things. If my question didn't allow for any possible reasonable conclusions to be made I would have failed my own goal as I can't see anyone draw any conclusions if there are none possible.

It's a bit more like meeting a messenger of the President and asking "How do you know he's such a good guy?", you wouldn't care how much the messenger told you "well the President wrote a book and it says he's a GREAT guy!" would you? That doesn't mean you would never be convened that the President is any good, does it? In fact I bet that if you ask yourself what you would want the messenger to say you will understand what I would most like to hear.

I'll admit that you don't have much chance of convincing me that there is a god, but I didn't come here for that and I didn't come here to prove anything to you. I came to pose a hypothetical where I accept the Devil and god as real and I don't think it would be hard to convince me that *if* there is a god and Satan that Christianity is not Satanically inspired. Think of me as a Christan that is worried about Satan's roll in this world (and not just around Christianity).

Let me also be clear on this also what I asked about your religion is only part of what I want to know, you can just as well describe what a religion would look like if it was inspired by Satan ("what would real satanism look like?") and never touch Christianity.

On your last point, I will consider the salvation of sin by faith in the Saviour for this hypothetical.

I hope none of this comes off as to defensive, rude, accusive or anything else, but it seams that everyone is assuming things about me. I know how Atheists (and people in general) can be, but I did not come here to debate as an atheist. I only said what I am to be open and truthful.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[westtexas]

I'll admit that you don't have much chance of convincing me that there is a god, but I didn't come here for that and I didn't come here to prove anything to you. I came to pose a hypothetical where I accept the Devil and god as real and I don't think it would be hard to convince me that *if* there is a god and Satan that Christianity is not Satanically inspired.

Are you sure it's a hypothetical question? Are you sure you haven't chosen sides? Is it a coincidence that God is in small letters 3 times and satan and the devil are both in caps? We will all be held accountable for our choices one day.. I know you don't want to read scripture but I'll throw Romans 14:10-12 out there should you desire to look some up.

Westtexas

 

[BrainForAReason]

Are you sure it's a hypothetical question? Are you sure you haven't chosen sides? Is it a coincidence that God is in small letters 3 times and satan and the devil are both in caps? We will all be held accountable for our choices one day.. I know you don't want to read scripture but I'll throw Romans 14:10-12 out there should you desire to look some up.

Westtexas

yes I'm sure, The Devil is not the inspiration for any bible other then the Satanic bible (and even that uses fairly little use of Satan).
If you mean sides as in being a worshiper of Satan, no I'm not.
No it's not a coincidence, I tend to think of God as a concept like God as the force of nature rather then God as a name so I forget to capitalize. I've tired to keep myself from doing this, but I guess I didn't do so well. Sorry.
What gave you the idea I don't like to read scripture? I just haven't seen it used in a way that can prove anything useful for my hypothetical yet. Though I could never stand to sit and read more then a few pages at once I don't mind at all reading a quote or a story when it ties into the topic at hand.
However I don't understand the relevance of this, are you suggesting that I am judging someone or treating anyone with contempt?
I'm not sure how if that's what you mean, but regardless of if it's what you mean please let me know if it sounds as if I'm doing either. Please believe me when I tell you that it was not and is not my intention to judge anyone here or treat anyone with contempt.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at but allow me to throw out one of my favorite parts of the bible: first Peter 3:15
If anyone asks I'll stop saying anything or asking anything they want because I am after all a uninvited outsider here on these forums. The only thing I'm asking for is a bit of a better understanding of how the Christan mind deals with Satan. If you help me with it it's a favor to me, if you aren't interested in dealing with questions like this by all means pass it up, if it offends you or bothers you please tell me and I will amend or remove it.

 

[FES]

So is it likely to you that some other religions have satanic influence or origin?
What makes you sure that Satan isn't the author of your bible?
When you think about it the whole new testament is based around accepting human sacrifice in a personal way to make your life (and afterlife) better.

An even more chilling thought, what if god wasn't fully good? could we tell and would we have hope?

---Full disclosure, I am an atheist, BUT I came only to learn more about how a person of faith approaches this problem. I'll be more then happy to answer any questions, but don't try to convert me and I won't try to de-convert you. Thank you and hope you enjoyed reading.

Yes, religions can have Satan's influence-denominations can have his influence as well, look at churches openly accepting homosexuality and not refuting it as sin. Religions have a human component, and we humans have free will and are fallible, which gives Satan an entry; that is why it is important to have a personal relationship with Christ and rely on faith in Him. It is the individual, not the religous group that is saved by the Grace of God. All things of man needs to be tested by fire before believing- learned that one the hard way.

If Satan was the author of the Holy Bible, he would be victorious over Christ, this is not the case. Why would any being author a book and proclaim eternal defeat? In the Old Testiment, one was to sacrifice his best lamb to God, the Lord sacrificed His best lamb (Christ) for us.

God is good, a loving and just God-this does not mean He does not give harsh correction to His children, much like a man should correct a child the Lord has blessed him to raise.

I would not attempt to convert you, but I prayed for you that one day you will open your heart, allow Christ in and receive the Holy Spirit.