Jim Parker
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If there had been no fall, there would have been no need for atonement.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Bible Study What would the outcome might have been if Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit given to him by Eve?
- Thread starter The Truth
- Start date
stovebolts
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Hi Spencer,
Of course you are right. It is all speculation. But the idea circles around the Orthodox view of the Trinity and it's a fun read / study.
stovebolts
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Have you read anything on this from the Orthodox Church? They have some very interesting things to say.
chessman
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And thus no Savior.
But wait, our Lord and Savior’s kingdom is eternal.
For in this way entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied for you.
2 Peter 1:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 1:11&version=LEBOh my, I’m confused.
Best just to believe what is true I guess.
Jim Parker
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That's because you are conflating (improperly combining) the concepts of "salvation" and the "kingdom of God."
While they are related, they are not the same subject.
stovebolts
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I understand.
The question is to perk further questions such as, why did God (Trinity) create humanity? Where we simply subjects to serve God? Did he create us so he could rule over us? Does God need humanity as objects of love so he could love? When scripture says God is love, what does that mean?
We understand the concept of redemption and reconcilliation, and we affirm these truths when we speak of Jesus on the cross. The truth of the matter is God the Son took on flesh, and he dwelt among us. Furthermore we know that he died, was buried and raised again and Thomas put his hands on Jesus because he doubted. But what is astonishing is that currently, Jesus is in heaven in the flesh, and when we are resurrected, we too will have flesh bodies.
Why does God the Son retain his fleshly body? Why not go back to the way he was prior to becoming flesh?
I know to some this may seem foolish, and perhaps it is.
Truthfrees
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- May 24, 2017
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so true - it can be confusing - and we should STAND on what is clearly written - so this discussion of hypotheticals maybe is not for everyone - because we certainly can't make doctrines out of what we are discussing
but this op question is something many of us have wondered about
i had a spiritual experience once where i was in the Bavarian mountains communing with God - all of a sudden the colors and scenery got unbelievably intensely beautiful and pure - i realized God was giving me a glimpse of how beautiful everything was before the fall - i was sad at the loss the fall created for us - and simultaneously overwhelmed with the beauty we will experience in heaven
if we had never sinned we would not have been separated from God and would have continued in fellowship with God in the gorgeously beautiful garden of eden
but God knew we would sin - starting with adam and eve - so He already planned our salvation - from our sins - making a way for us to come back into the kingdom of God
the world and the universe all belong to God - we are all God's creation - but now by choice we are fully God's children
God wanted us all to be His children but some don't want God - or His Fatherhood/ Saviorhood/ Indwelling Holy Spirit - so by choice they remain outside of God's will for all of us - John 3:16
Truthfrees
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awesome question - we do wonder about these kinds of things
can we find the answers? - maybe not - but imo God made us to be inquisitive - and imo many of the questions we ask come from Him
my zillions of questions are what keeps my relationship with God fun - like this thread
i have asked God so many "why" questions - and it opens up great conversations with God that help me get closer to God and understand Him better - God is awesome and He is fun - religion can be dry/serious/heavy when it is all theology and no relationship
Jesus said unless we become as little children we can't enter into the kingdom of heaven - this has a serious theological meaning for sure - but it also has a fun relationship meaning too
our theology can be wrong and need correcting - but our relationship with God should always be fun and be the motivation for all we do -
our relationship with God is what makes us and Jesus contagious to others - when they see what fun we have with God they want in on it too - when they see how dry/serious/ominous religion can be they run for the hills to get away
love your posts
- Jun 13, 2014
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I'm way too serious SB.
This is where I am when I let my hair down. I still have lots of it in my old age.
Maybe it's time for me to get back to listening to Jerry Lee Lewis or Slim Dusty.
Oz
stovebolts
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That link was to a song by Jerry Lee Lewis & not the comedian, Jerry Lewis.
The fish in the avatar is a trumpeter (60cm = 23.6inches), caught off the rocks at the mouth of the Burrum River, Qld (near Maryborough/Hervey Bay) by my brother-in-law, Mervyn.
As for the hair, let's see if I can attach a file of the old boy from 2017 when I was aged 71:
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chessman
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I didn’t mention the concepts of “salvation” or the “kingdom of God”.
But rather I posted a verse of Scripture that describes our Savior’s kingdom as being eternal in reply to your personal opinion (without any Scriptural support) that had their been no “fall” there would have been no need for the atonement. How does the fall (sin) relate to the atonement, Scripturally speaking? Or are you conflating these two concepts?
- Jun 13, 2014
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chessman,
My understanding biblically of the fall/sin relates to a substitutionary atonement. Instead of my dying for my sin, Jesus died as a substitute for this sinner and all other sinners.
This is taught in verses such as Rom 3:9-18, 23. Rom 3:23 (NIV) is the one so familiar to us: 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'.
Then, what did God provide? Christ took our place, was a substitute for our sins: 'For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, [Or be a sin offering] so that we could be made right with God through Christ' (2 Cor 5:21 NLT).
See also 1 John 2:2 (NIV).
Oz
chessman
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No, we were created so that God could give to us blessings ... (to include being our Savior). See Gen 1:27
No, quite the opposite. We are His bride.
God residing in us. Get it? Like a husband/wife.
And we have come to know and have believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and the one who resides in love resides in God, and God resides in him.
1 John 4:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 4:16&version=LEBSo that ... you guessed it ... we could be His bride.
For on the one hand a preceding commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect), but on the other hand there is the introduction of a better hope through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 7:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 7:18-19&version=LEBHe is obligated to be our Brother.
Therefore he was obligated to be made like his brothers in all respects, in order that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things relating to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people. For in that which he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 2:17-18&version=LEBNah, it keeps some in further study of the Word. Keep it coming brother!
chessman
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Me too. That was my point. An eternal Savior, saves something. Right?
stovebolts
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Wow. You look great!
Jim Parker
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Being Orthodox, I have read quite a bit of what they have to say but nothing about this particular topic.
chessman
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No doubt
Man living forever yet without fellowshiping with God (i.e. access to eating from the Tree of Life) was/is not in the eternal plan either. Until the time and situation (and free choice) is right of course. But the hypothetical situation of the OP (mankind never falling/sinning) isn’t as perfect as the eternal plan of salvation is, IMO. For the reason I posted. A Savior is only a Savior if He actually has someone to save.
Take your Bavarian mountains experience for example. If you’d never experienced the fallen world’s beauty and colors in the first place (from which to be raised), how would you know that the beauty and intensity of colors in an unfallen state is better???
- Dec 29, 2017
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I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on that one there. Surely you don't think that Jesus would have been beaten and nailed to a cross if He didn't have any reason to now do you?