Bible Study What would the outcome might have been if Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit given to him by Eve?

[stovebolts]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on that one there. Surely you don't think that Jesus would have been beaten and nailed to a cross if He didn't have any reason to now do you?

To say that "I think" God would still have come in the flesh to dwell among us even if Adam and Eve had not sinned, and death entered the world is not to say that Jesus was beaten and nailed to the cross for no reason.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that who so ever shall believe on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

We understand that God sent His only begotten Son as our redeemer, to reconcile the world. That is. Both man and creation.

All of that is not in question. We believe it, and we affirm it.

The question is really this. If death had not entered the world, would God still have loved us enough to become flesh and dwell among us? I think the answer is yes.

When God became flesh, he remained flesh. Jesus is currently in heaven, and he still has his body of flesh. We are told at the resurection that our bodies will be made new. And so it is that we will be with Jesus in bodily form. Jesus doesnt turn into a spirit while we remain with bodies.

Does God love us enough to become flesh and dwell among us. Even if death had not entered the world? Or did God need a reason to show us such love?

There is no wrong answer here, just room to wander and ponder the love the Father has for us.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

The thing to remember is that the bible states that "flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven, but a glorified fleshly body with the life of that body is Spirit can.

 

[stovebolts]

dirtfarmer here

The thing to remember is that the bible states that "flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven, but a glorified fleshly body with the life of that body is Spirit can.

Agreed. Both Reconciliation and Redemption point toward restoration of how things once were... We know death entered the world through Adam's transgression, and we know that death does not have a part in eternity. Furthermore, humanity will once again be in the presence of the Tree of Life.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

To say that "I think" God would still have come in the flesh to dwell among us even if Adam and Eve had not sinned, and death entered the world is not to say that Jesus was beaten and nailed to the cross for no reason.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that who so ever shall believe on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

We understand that God sent His only begotten Son as our redeemer, to reconcile the world. That is. Both man and creation.

All of that is not in question. We believe it, and we affirm it.

The question is really this. If death had not entered the world, would God still have loved us enough to become flesh and dwell among us? I think the answer is yes.

When God became flesh, he remained flesh. Jesus is currently in heaven, and he still has his body of flesh. We are told at the resurection that our bodies will be made new. And so it is that we will be with Jesus in bodily form. Jesus doesnt turn into a spirit while we remain with bodies.

Does God love us enough to become flesh and dwell among us. Even if death had not entered the world? Or did God need a reason to show us such love?

There is no wrong answer here, just room to wander and ponder the love the Father has for us.

I have to say, now that you put it like that, you really do make a very good and valid point here. I guess I just didn't understand what you were saying before.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Agreed. Both Reconciliation and Redemption point toward restoration of how things once were... We know death entered the world through Adam's transgression, and we know that death does not have a part in eternity. Furthermore, humanity will once again be in the presence of the Tree of Life.

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that man was not created eternal, but dying physical. The death that entered through Adam's transgression was separation from God. When God said you shall surely die if you eat of the fruit the tree of knowledge, it was in reference to separation from God's presence. Adam died spiritually(separation from God) when he ate of the fruit immediately, but continued to live physically.

 

[chessman]

Adam died spiritually(separation from God) when he ate of the fruit immediately, but continued to live physically.

If Adam immediately died spiritually (seperation from God) when he ate of the fruit, then why does God continue to walk and talk with Adam (and vice-versa) if they were separated/dead?

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise, then she took from its fruit and she ate. And she gave it also to her husband with her, and he ate. ​

...​

And Yahweh God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”​

Genesis 3:6,9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:6,9&version=LEB

 

[dirtfarmer]

If Adam immediately died spiritually (seperation from God) when he ate of the fruit, then why does God continue to walk and talk with Adam (and vice-versa) if they were separated/dead?

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise, then she took from its fruit and she ate. And she gave it also to her husband with her, and he ate. ​

...​

And Yahweh God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”​

Genesis 3:6,9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:6,9&version=LEB

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

What does Genesis 3:7 mean when it states; " And the eyes of them both were opened"? Does it mean up until that time their eyes were closed as the first few days of a new born kitten or puppy? Could it be similar to what is stated in Isaiah 47:3, " Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet the as a man".

Adam tried to cover his "nakedness" with fig leaves, a representative of man trying his own works to cover what only God can cover. It was God that made the coats of skin and covered Adam's nakedness; a type of God providing the covering for sin by substituting an innocent life.
Where do we find that after Adam sinned that God walked with him? I find where "they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden", but I don't find God, himself, ever walking with them after the fall.

 

[chessman]

What does Genesis 3:7 mean when it states; " And the eyes of them both were opened"?

Are you going to answer my question? But to answer yours, it means they became afraid (versus ‘spiritually dead’):

And he replied, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid because I am naked, so I hid myself.”​

Genesis 3:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:10&version=LEB

That’s what it says, right???

After their sin they became afraid yet we still read in the account God walking in the garden and even calling to them and talking directly to them:

Then they heard the sound of Yahweh God walking in the garden at the windy time of day. ​

Genesis 3:8a- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:8&version=LEB

And Yahweh God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” ​

Genesis 3:9 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:9-10&version=LEB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Are you going to answer my question? But to answer yours, it means they became afraid (versus ‘spiritually dead’):

And he replied, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid because I am naked, so I hid myself.”​

Genesis 3:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:10&version=LEB

That’s what it says, right???

After their sin they became afraid yet we still read in the account God walking in the garden and even calling to them and talking directly to them:

Then they heard the sound of Yahweh God walking in the garden at the windy time of day. ​

Genesis 3:8a- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:8&version=LEB

And Yahweh God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” ​

Genesis 3:9 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:9-10&version=LEB[/QUOTE

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

The answer to your question: Does not God speak to the unbeliever and let them know they are is need of a savior by His Spirit. Is it possible for Adam to have hid in the garden of Eden and God not be able to know their location? The question, "Where are you", was not an inquiry of his physical location, but to his spiritual standing with God. God put the same question to unbelievers to get them to understand that they are in need of a savior. He may use different terms, but conviction is the ultimate purpose.

 

[chessman]

Does not God speak to the unbeliever and let them know they are is need of a savior by His Spirit.

Well He certainly did speak to me while I was an unbeliever, sure.

But siince God was there speaking to Adam after Adam’s transgression (his ‘fall’), I’m unsure why you’d call that separation from God or spiritual death, is my question. Afraid, in need, sure. But “spiritually dead”, separated from God, doesn’t actually fit the Text is my point.

Is it possible for Adam to have hid in the garden of Eden and God not be able to know their location?

No.

But that’s my point. They were not separated.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Well He certainly did speak to me while I was an unbeliever, sure.

But siince God was there speaking to Adam after Adam’s transgression (his ‘fall’), I’m unsure why you’d call that separation from God or spiritual death, is my question. Afraid, in need, sure. But “spiritually dead”, separated from God, doesn’t actually fit the Text is my point.


No.

But that’s my point. They were not separated.

hello chessman dirtfarmer here

Man has a spirit that needs the Spirit to speak it. To be spiritually dead doesn't mean that we have no spirit. It means that our spirit is subject to our soul, the worldly part of man, and is not subject to the Spirit of God. Romans 8: 16," The (S)pirit itself beareth witness with our (s)pirit, that we are the children of God." When we receive salvation the Spirit separates our spirit from our soul and our spirit is no longer subject to our soul. Hebrews 4:12-3, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and shaper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder the soul and the spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is the decerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and open unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

In Genesis 5:3 it is stated that Adam's offspring was in Adam's likeness, not in God's likeness without sin. There are scriptures that state that man physically is appointed a time of death.

Think about this; if Adam had not sinned and had lived 1000 years, the same as the millennium, would the new heaven and the new earth have came? Adam had to die because of Israel's 1000 earthly kingdom. Before time ever began, in the mind of God, Christ was crucified, the Church was established, the rapture happened, the earthly kingdom of priests was established to preach the gospel to all the world, and Satan, that old dragon, the deceiver was cast into the lake of fire forever. God is sovereign and his plan cannot be changed by anything that man may do, it will be accomplished.

 

[chessman]

Think about this; if Adam had not sinned and had lived 1000 years, the same as the millennium, would the new heaven and the new earth have came?

Okay, I’ll give up thinking about how to reconcile Adam being separated from God (spiritually dead) while at the same time talking with God and move on, for that still seems contradictory to the Biblical account.

There’s no need for a new anything (a new heaven, a new Earth, or a new creature for that matter) had Adam lived on and on in the Garden without ever sinning. God had declared him “very good” (though still in need of a helper it should be noted). Nor would any human death have occurred (entered the world). At a 1,000 man-years (which is like one day to God) or 2,000 man-years, etc. Adam could have lived forever in The Garden. The problem (or contradiction with other Text(s)) is that there would also have been no need for a Savior, had Adam not needed saving that is. Because the Savior is eternal.

Here’s a thought/question:

For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.​

Romans 8:6-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:6-8&version=LEB

According to Paul, “flesh” has a mindset.
Do you think Adam’s pre-fallen flesh would have been able to please God for 1,000 years?

God is sovereign and his plan cannot be changed by anything that man may do, it will be accomplished.

Yep, the dirt will be cultivated.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Okay, I’ll give up thinking about how to reconcile Adam being separated from God (spiritually dead) while at the same time talking with God and move on, for that still seems contradictory to the Biblical account.

There’s no need for a new anything (a new heaven, a new Earth, or a new creature for that matter) had Adam lived on and on in the Garden without ever sinning. God had declared him “very good” (though still in need of a helper it should be noted). Nor would any human death have occurred (entered the world). At a 1,000 man-years (which is like one day to God) or 2,000 man-years, etc. Adam could have lived forever in The Garden. The problem (or contradiction with other Text(s)) is that there would also have been no need for a Savior, had Adam not needed saving that is. Because the Savior is eternal.

Here’s a thought/question:

For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.​

Romans 8:6-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:6-8&version=LEB

According to Paul, “flesh” has a mindset.
Do you think Adam’s pre-fallen flesh would have been able to please God for 1,000 years?



Yep, the dirt will cultivated.

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

Adam's pre-fallen flesh could not have pleased God for a 1000 years because of being flesh and blood.

Here is something to think about; God was not able to make a being as he his, without beginning or end, but His Son dying on the cross via the "new creation" could make a person everlasting (have a beginning but not an end). We are told the Spirit is eternal and everlasting, so man having a glorified body with the Spirit as life could put on incorruption and mortal could put on immortality. For all this to happen death had to be defeated and God's Son was the only one with the ability to resurrect the flesh as a new creation of immortality and incorruption.

 

[JohnDB]

Well...
Being the cook...
Jesus would still have come because I would have made jam, jelly, and fruit roll ups with the fruit.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Well...
Being the cook...
Jesus would still have come because I would have made jam, jelly, and fruit roll ups with the fruit.

Yeah, and how could Jesus possibly turn down a lunch or dinner invitation? Lol :wink

 

[stovebolts]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that man was not created eternal, but dying physical. The death that entered through Adam's transgression was separation from God. When God said you shall surely die if you eat of the fruit the tree of knowledge, it was in reference to separation from God's presence. Adam died spiritually(separation from God) when he ate of the fruit immediately, but continued to live physically.

I have often pondered that thought as well.
Was Resurection always part of the human experience?
In other words. Had the fall not occurred. Would Adam have died a physical death only to be resurected?
I dont think this is the case, but it's certainly ok to ponder.

 

[stovebolts]

Well...
Being the cook...
Jesus would still have come because I would have made jam, jelly, and fruit roll ups with the fruit.

Ha! And cheese cake!

 

[chessman]

Well...
Being the cook...
Jesus would still have come because I would have made jam, jelly, and fruit roll ups with the fruit.

And Jane would have said to God; The man whom you gave to be with me—he gave to me mixed fruit jelly and I used it for icing a Devil’s food cake not knowing it was from the forbidden tree.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I have often pondered that thought as well.
Was Resurection always part of the human experience?
In other words. Had the fall not occurred. Would Adam have died a physical death only to be resurected?
I dont think this is the case, but it's certainly ok to ponder.

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

Scripture states that "it is appointed unto man once to die" (Hebrews 9:27), so Adam was destined to die (physically), even if he had not sinned. As I have stated before, it is my belief that Adam was created dying, not to physically live eternally. The reason for this belief is because of Ephesians 1:4 which states that believers were chosen to be holy and without blame before him, even before the foundation of the world was laid.

 

[Jim Parker]

Scripture states that "it is appointed unto man once to die" (Hebrews 9:27), so Adam was destined to die (physically), even if he had not sinned.

Heb 9:27 was written after sin entered the world.
The cause of death is sin.
Before there was any sin, there was no death.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

As I have stated before, it is my belief that Adam was created dying, not to physically live eternally.

Then you believe that God is the author of death. That's unfortunate.
Gen 1:31a Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
Everything that God made was very good. Death is not any kind of good.

When Adam was created, he had no sin. He was like God.
Gen 1:26a Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Death is the result (wages) of sin. (Rom 6:23)
God did not create Adam to die. We know that because God gave Adam free access to the tree of life.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Adam was not subject to death until he disobeyed God. So, it was not until AFTER he sinned that Adam died. God did not create Adam already condemned to death. It was Adam's choice that caused death to enter into him.

iakov the fool