When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are elect ?

[reba]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Why would God say what He does in Romans and Psalms?

 

[reba]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Is this a trick question? I've never claimed man has any worth "outside of God." There is nothing that exists that is "outside of God".

Then that would include mans will !

 

[theLords]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Justification comes through faith...not the law. No, I don't abhor God's Law, but it isn't the Law that saves us. The Law only points out our sin. Of course David was saved...through faith and the work of the cross.

The Law is that path that makes straight the way for the Lord's Salvation (through Christ).

Is this a trick question? I've never claimed man has any worth "outside of God." There is nothing that exists that is "outside of God".

Why then do you insist on stating (contrary to the Scriptures) that "man is good."

He is in all. He loves us (the whole world), therefore mankind is worth something as His creatures. He wouldn't have sent His Son to the cross if mankind didn't have worth.

Where does mankind get this worth, if you agree that there is no worth or goodness outside of God?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

We know God draws all men to Himself. That's a powerful draw, no doubt

You dont believe God's draw is more powerful than mans will.

Another trick question. You guys are fun.

God's draw is powerful, but some do resist it, don't they? God, Himself, has said so throughout scripture. If man can resist God's voice, he can resist His draw. That's because God gave man a free will.

Ye WOULD NOT OBEY the voice of the the Lord.

And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

Talk about a draw..."shall ye be saved"..yet "ye would not".

For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

God sent prophets, yet "ye would not hear."

Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 - Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We're drawn to the Light of the World through the gospel message. We choose to look or turn away.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Why would God say what He does in Romans and Psalms?

Those are big books...you'll have to be more specific.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Then that would include mans will !

Isn't it amazing that God's plan includes man's free will? He didn't have to let us choose. He could have made us robots, couldn't He? But, a love not freely given is not love at all. If we were forced to obey then God would have nothing to glory in as far as man in concerned. The devil could merely say, "Well, they had not choice but to worship and adore you."

 

[reba]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Here is Romans again and now the Psalms


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Yes, the general condition of mankind, for we are but the creature and come short of the glory of God, which is the entire point of the above. God is perfect, man isn't. I really doubt that is in dispute. I've never heard anyone claim otherwise although I hear many saying that's what we believe. Totally depraved? No. We are created in God's image. In fact, Romans 2 speaks of others...obviously some show the work of the law written in their heart.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The Bible speaks of righteous men all throughout the Bible. Why are they righteous? Because the are justified by their faith in God. Look at Lot. He was deemed just and righteous by God. Look at David. He was called a man after God's own heart, and yet he committed adultery and murdered. The section you quote was to show man's need of a saviour. No one questions that. There are obviously uncounted examples in the Word which show men do seek after God...because they are drawn to the Light. You must take the Bible as a whole, and not be swayed into false conclusions by a particular portion of scripture. It's by God's grace that mankind was given a conscience when he was created, without which you would be right.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is not talking about all men, but the workers of iniquity. Those who say there is no God. We know from Romans that God is shown forth in nature and verified by our conscience. Therefore not all men say there is no God. I don't know about you, but I've always known there was a God, and many people do which is why mankind tries so hard to find Him.

Psalm 14 is basically the same and you'll see the righteous in it.

Psalm 14
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

7Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Tell that to Daniel Stinnett and Angela Johns:

Man pleads guilty to murder, rape of toddler
September 20, 2011

LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) — A Lexington man has pleaded guilty to killing, raping and sexually abusing a 2-year-old girl he was babysitting.

Brian Crabtree, who is 21, faces a possible life sentence in the 2008 death of Katelynn Stinnett after entering the plea Monday.

Police say Crabtree was watching the child and her brother while their father, Daniel Stinnett, was at work. The children's mother, Angela Johns, was estranged from Stinnett at the time.

Prosecutor Ray Larson told the Lexington Herald-Leader that he is recommending life without parole on the murder charge, 20 years each on rape and sodomy charges and five years each on two counts of sex abuse (http://bit.ly/qQkyRD). He says he did not seek the death penalty because Crabtree has a low IQ.

Sentencing was set for Nov. 4.

Source: http://www.chron.com/news/article/Man-pleads-guilty-to-murder-rape-of-toddler-2179289.php

That's just silly to put up a case of a depraved person and claim everyone is depraved. What in the world are you thinking?

 

[theLords]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

That's just silly to put up a case of a depraved person and claim everyone is depraved. What in the world are you thinking?

Do you think so highly of yourself that you would never have eaten of the forbidden fruit? The only reason you and I are not Hitler's, Stalin's, or Brian Cabtree's is because of the lovingkindness, grace, and mercy of God. Outside of God, man is capable of the vilest, most atrocious, disgusting thoughts, words, and actions. Just because you haven't murdered a man, does not make you good. You and I are good, because of Christ and Christ alone. David committed adultery and then murdered a man. To think one is better than David and Brian Cabtree is to think too highly of oneself. Every single person on earth is capable of totally depravity. Man is equal. No man is greater than another.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

The Law is that path that makes straight the way for the Lord's Salvation (through Christ).



Why then do you insist on stating (contrary to the Scriptures) that "man is good."



Where does mankind get this worth, if you agree that there is no worth or goodness outside of God?

First, I'd like to see some scripture to back up what you say here. It sounds a little odd to me. If you mean the law shows us we are sinners, then I agree.

Second, I don't insist on stating man is good. I've said he isn't totally depraved. There is a difference.

Third, man gets this worth because we are God's creation, and He loves us.

 

[theLords]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

First, I'd like to see some scripture to back up what you say here. It sounds a little odd to me. If you mean the law shows us we are sinners, then I agree.

Exactly. You cannot remove the Law from the process of salvation.

Second, I don't insist on stating man is good. I've said he isn't totally depraved. There is a difference.

No there isn't. There is good and there is evil. There is no in between. You don't get to sin against God and say "Well, what I did was not technically sin."

Third, man gets this worth because we are God's creation, and He loves us.

Scripture?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Do you think so highly of yourself that you would never have eaten of the forbidden fruit? The only reason you and I are not Hitler's, Stalin's, or Brian Cabtree's is because of the lovingkindness, grace, and mercy of God. Outside of God, man is capable of the vilest, most atrocious, disgusting thoughts, words, and actions. Just because you haven't murdered a man, does not make you good. You and I are good, because of Christ and Christ alone. David committed adultery and then murdered a man. To think one is better than David and Brian Cabtree is to think too highly of oneself. Every single person on earth is capable of totally depravity. Man is equal. No man is greater than another.

I think you're getting a little carried away. I don't think highly of myself, I think highly of God and his wisdom in creating man in His image. It sounds to me like you think more highly of satan and his power to corrupt than you do of man's ability to listen to the conscience God gave us. If what you say is true there would be no unsaved people who live a life of service to their fellow man. As much as you may hate to admit it, there are a great many people who aren't saved and do not do the horrible things you suggest. I know many unbelievers who are kinder and more loving than you appear to be. If that offends you, I'm sorry, but you seem determined to be contentious.

 

[theLords]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

I think you're getting a little carried away. I don't think highly of myself, I think highly of God and his wisdom in creating man in His image. It sounds to me like you think more highly of satan and his power to corrupt than you do of man's ability to listen to the conscience God gave us.

There is more evidence in the world that man is more susceptible to Satan's power, but my recognition of this does not give Satan any power. The Bible also supports this simple fact as stated by Christ (Matthew 7:14).

God's glory comes in the quality of His worth. While Satan lies, tempts, and robs to get man to humiliate himself to do his own bidding through kicking and screaming, the Lord God uses love and kindness to bring murderers to their knees in sobbing repentance (by their own accord). Hence, God's power is demonstrated as greater because it's easy to give a punch, but much harder to take one and forgive and turn the other cheek and continue to love.

If what you say is true there would be no unsaved people who live a life of service to their fellow man. As much as you may hate to admit it, there are a great many people who aren't saved and do not do the horrible things you suggest. I know many unbelievers who are kinder and more loving than you appear to be. If that offends you, I'm sorry, but you seem determined to be contentious.

You seem to speak alot, but don't seem to validate your words with Scripture. There are many people who do not commit atrocities, and that is because of the loving kindness of God. That still does not mean that they are not capable of the depravity others are capable of.

You like to make statements about my own love and kindness, with simultaneously prideful and unapologetic "I'm sorry's", but you don't realize that your own heart has to first be in a state of unloving, unkindness before you can say such unloving and unkind words, and then use false humility to boost your ego and rationalize your own rudeness with "I'm sorry if that offends you". You make a statement like "That's just silly to put up a case of a depraved person and claim everyone is depraved. What in the world are you thinking?" and then accuse me of being contentious when I respond with the same attitude you treated me with?

I think you display my point of man's total depravity. You went from being level headed to being cruel in just 3 short pages in this thread. It did not take long to set you off. What would it take to set you off to hit me? What would it take to set you off to murder me, if a simple discussion on an internet forum is enough to anger you into lashing out? But, instead of recognizing this within yourself, you'll ignore your own wrong doing and unkind, unloving behavior and claim you are the innocent party in all this. David, a man after God's own heart, was capable of murdering, how much worse is the rest of mankind, who are not blessed with the honor of being after God's own heart, capable of acting?

I was most certainly not being contentious. I was hoping you would provide a Biblically sound case to prove me wrong. But what do you do? You show me just how easy man is tempted into being cruel and depraved. You weren't even capable of listening to your own God given conscience to refrain from offending (you know exactly what you were doing as evidenced by your false apology: "I'm sorry if that offends"). You showed me that there truly is no good in mankind when you stepped out of abiding in Christ and stepped into speaking in the flesh. You do not live the words that you preach. At least, the Calvinist position does. You validated my beliefs that I was hoping to change. Thanks a bunch,

 

[Christ_empowered]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

I read somewhere that the core difference between Arminianism and Calvinism is that the Arminians believe that, while affected by The Fall, mankind has retained some spark of goodness or at least receptivity to God that allows us to respond to Him and choose Him. I don't believe that. I'm a baby Christian, but my rudimentary understanding of Scripture does not lead me to believe that post-Adam mankind has any "spark" of goodness left. Total Depravity strikes me as Biblical, as does predestination.

Also, Calvinists don't argue that God created us as robots. Technically, all people can call out to God, and all people are required to become Christian, lest they continue on the wide road to damnation. However, because of The Fall, we're all lost, unless there is a divine intervention. The idea isn't that we're "robots," its that in our natural state we are slaves of sin, doing the evil things that sinners enjoy and suffering God's wrath as a result. We are born as wicked enemies of God and we remain increasingly evil enemies of God unless He intervenes (which He does for those he chose before time began) and saves us.

Also, I can't help but notice that one reason a lot of people reject Calvinism is because of the whole "God is loving" thing. C.S. Lewis wrote about this. He said that when we think of God being loving, what we want is for God to be like a senile grandfather in the sky, forgetting our wrongs and allowing us to indulge ourselves. That's not Biblical. God is a consuming fire, a just, merciful, holy, and sometimes angry God. God's love for us involves transforming us, through blessings and trials and pain and suffering, into men and women more like His son, Jesus Christ. This is agape love, love that will allow for suffering and pain and hardship to see to the perfection and ultimate good of the object of such love.

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Isn't it amazing that God's plan includes man's free will? He didn't have to let us choose. He could have made us robots, couldn't He? But, a love not freely given is not love at all. If we were forced to obey then God would have nothing to glory in as far as man in concerned. The devil could merely say, "Well, they had not choice but to worship and adore you."

 

[ivdavid]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

Isn't it amazing that God's plan includes man's free will? He didn't have to let us choose. He could have made us robots, couldn't He? But, a love not freely given is not love at all. If we were forced to obey then God would have nothing to glory in as far as man in concerned. The devil could merely say, "Well, they had not choice but to worship and adore you."

I hope we can deal with this difference in our beliefs amicably.

I've just cried myself hoarse in stating that the absence of "freewill" is not "no will" as in robots/puppets - rather it is a "dependent will", where it still is man who chooses, only such choice being dependent on a lot of factors not of himself.

If you're familiar with the game of chess - I play against my opponent with the objective of cornering his king into a 'checkmate'. When I'm much better at the game than my opponent, I get to control the game - and his moves. I can, through a series of 'checks' to his king, make him get his king to exactly where I want it. I, a mere human who cannot see into the heart/mind of my opponent, can control his moves by just the wise placement of my own pieces out of my own wisdom. Now let's say my opponent is deemed to be one of the best in the world - and if I'm still able to deal with him this way, will I not have glory heaped upon me for the extent of my wisdom.

Man always has the ability to choose like that weak opponent. But the devil plays his side of the game - and by his works, he forces us to move into a position that is against God. The devil seems to be smart enough in having controlled our life this way - but therein we see the infinite wisdom of God in trumping the moves of the devil with His own. God uses every work/move of the devil against himself, and in that He shows forth His ability to control every single creation's move. I glory in such wisdom of God - and I don't even have to assert my own freewill for this. Just like the opponent who lost the game with me could rejoice in witnessing my glorious moves - in having controlled his moves.

Note, the analogy is for a very specific purpose - I know it will break at some point when tried to stretch it to some other unintended aspect in reality. And the analogy is not fit to scale - in that what is applied to God is infinitely farther away from what I've pictured myself in for argument's sake.

 

[ivdavid]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

This[Ps 53:3,14:3] is not talking about all men

Fair enough. But look at the context in which Paul applies this Scripture. It's sandwiched between
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
and
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Who does Paul refer to by "ALL" in v.9,19 - I guess that would be the clue to figure out how he has applied the "none seek God, none do good, none are righteous" quotes in between as validation. It seems to me that the people referred to in Rom 3:9 and Rom 3:19 include every single man in the flesh. Hence it seems conducive in context to assume that Rom 3:10-18 too refer to these same people ie every single man in the flesh.

On the other hand, does it seem to make sense to talk about every single man in the flesh, then suddenly quote Scripture to refer to a specific group who are atheists and then come back and conclude from such Scripture about every single man's state?

there are a great many people who aren't saved and do not do the horrible things you suggest.

Of course, no one denies this. Total depravity never claims that people are the worst they could be - it just says that every single act of the unregenerate is stained with some form of transgression of God's Law - and since transgression of His law is sin, we say that man in the flesh can do nothing but sin and hence we term such a one, a "sinner".

Take the example of an unbeliever - and given the choice to murder a person, this unbeliever walks away choosing not to murder. Has this person been the worst he/she can be - No. But has the person done good in choosing not to murder - we have to explore the secret thoughts and intents of this person to determine if this act was good or not. If the intent was out of a sense of self-righteousness, then this act still amounts to sin before God. This is very similar to the scenario in Matt 6:2. Can you get what I'm saying?

Without the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts, it's impossible to love as God wills and commands us to - and hence the unregenerate simply can never obey these commandments of God, therein being under sin until God regenerates them.

Why do you have a problem accepting that the flesh can never obey God's law and that it can only serve the law of sin?

And as you said earlier, man is under the power of sin before spiritual regeneration. What does such power of sin actually entail - can it be overcome by man in the flesh or does overcoming its power require a regenerated nature?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: When a Calvinist tells the unsaved about Christ, does he consider if they are ele

First, I'd like to see some scripture to back up what you say here. It sounds a little odd to me. If you mean the law shows us we are sinners, then I agree.

Second, I don't insist on stating man is good. I've said he isn't totally depraved. There is a difference.

Third, man gets this worth because we are God's creation, and He loves us.

AMEN To everything you said here...