Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
When did allah appear?
- Thread starter Heidi
- Start date
N
Nicolaj
Guest
I belive some Muslims worshiped pagan gods...before Christianity came along...
Many gentiles....now Muslims then began to pratice Jesus' teachings way long before Allah & Mohammed came along and this gentils did infact worship the true God...and where Christians...
We still have Christians in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, palenstine...and many more middle eastern countries...
Mohammed I understand...was taught by Jewish Priests about God when his was much younger...and later understood alittle about Christianity..
When he received his so called visions!..I believe from what I've read in the past is, he went to the Jews, told them he was the new prophet and he was receiving the word of God......but they called him a liar.. and told him to go.
Because of the rejection... IMO I believe this is what turned Mohammed to hate the Jews and Christians, ...If you read parts of the Koran..you will find some of the Bible stories in there...though Mohammed was very confused about the stories and they where written down wrong...I guess he didn't have a very good memory from his earlier Bible studying.
His motto was be killed or convert to Islam once he had found a group of people willing to believe his lies. After that they went around murdering, and raping..and there we have it...how Mohammed spread his love and peace.
You may find this link interesting Heidi...
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/co ... _0128.html
Many gentiles....now Muslims then began to pratice Jesus' teachings way long before Allah & Mohammed came along and this gentils did infact worship the true God...and where Christians...
We still have Christians in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, palenstine...and many more middle eastern countries...
Mohammed I understand...was taught by Jewish Priests about God when his was much younger...and later understood alittle about Christianity..
When he received his so called visions!..I believe from what I've read in the past is, he went to the Jews, told them he was the new prophet and he was receiving the word of God......but they called him a liar.. and told him to go.
Because of the rejection... IMO I believe this is what turned Mohammed to hate the Jews and Christians, ...If you read parts of the Koran..you will find some of the Bible stories in there...though Mohammed was very confused about the stories and they where written down wrong...I guess he didn't have a very good memory from his earlier Bible studying.
His motto was be killed or convert to Islam once he had found a group of people willing to believe his lies. After that they went around murdering, and raping..and there we have it...how Mohammed spread his love and peace.
You may find this link interesting Heidi...
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/co ... _0128.html
M
Muhsen
Guest
Allah first made his presence known to the Muslims and non-Muslims once he created us. And once he created other creations.
He sent the prophets for us to guide us to worship him, and to leave worship idols and to not associate partner with him. He sent specific prophets in specific times to specific people. And the last prophet was Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came for the whole world.
All God’s scriptures brought one message to people. It’s worship God without partner.
But, some scriptures has been corrupted, as example bible has been corrupted by men. Jesus (pbuh) was no more than a prophet, the trinity concept did not come about until hundreds of years later. The only reason the Trinitarian theology of Christianity lives today, is because the monotheistic Christians were murdered because they did not accept the polytheist
I hope I answered your question.
He sent the prophets for us to guide us to worship him, and to leave worship idols and to not associate partner with him. He sent specific prophets in specific times to specific people. And the last prophet was Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came for the whole world.
All God’s scriptures brought one message to people. It’s worship God without partner.
But, some scriptures has been corrupted, as example bible has been corrupted by men. Jesus (pbuh) was no more than a prophet, the trinity concept did not come about until hundreds of years later. The only reason the Trinitarian theology of Christianity lives today, is because the monotheistic Christians were murdered because they did not accept the polytheist
I hope I answered your question.
Muhsen said:
No, I actually wish you had. Why did allah not make his appearance until the 6th century? Our God made his presence known when man was created. What did Muslims believe between the time of the OT and the Koran? If they worshipped false idols, then why didn't allah make his appearance known before the 6th century? If you worship the God of the OT, then after the 6th century, why did your God change his mind about what he previously said in the OT? Or is the OT God not the same as allah? In that case, then again, why did allah not make his presence known until the 6th century?
Also, if the Muslims do believe the OT God, then who is the "we" that is used in genesis when describing who created the world? Jesus was prophesied all throughout the OT. Isaiah described Christ when he said that the messiah would be "pierced for our transgressions." Where is Mohammed prophesied?
N
Nicolaj
Guest
Muhsen said:
God made his presense known to Adam and Eve later generations...these people became known as Jews...this is in the OT......
When Jesus came with his message...it was first for the Jews, ...Gods chosen people...they where told many times during the OT...of Jesus coming....but many rejected and still do ........Later Gods message was spread to the Gentiles...(pagans) that us...that includes Muslims...after they converted from Christianity.
N
Nicolaj
Guest
Could you tell me which scriptures have been corrupted?....have both the OT and the NT been corrupted...or ijust the NT concerning Jesus.......
Do you have a link...so I can read for myself please?.......where did you get your information from.... that Jesus was only a prophet?...was it from Mohammed or some other source?
B
Barabbas
Guest
Briefly, the pre-Muslims, Arabs, if you will, believed in pagan gods. If I recall correctly, about 360. Mohammed destroyed the idols, some of which his uncle tended, in a temple, and instituted Islam. All this from his revelations from Allah.
Muslims tend to believe that anything that occured before the era of Mohammed , are from the " age of darkness". Something to be shunned.
Yol Bolsun.
Muslims tend to believe that anything that occured before the era of Mohammed , are from the " age of darkness". Something to be shunned.
Yol Bolsun.
Barabbas said:
But my question is, why did allah leave them in darkness for so long? Where are the writings of what the Muslims believed before the Koran? Is it the OT? If it's the OT, then why do they say the OT isn't the truth?If only part of the OT is the truth, then where are the writings of what the Muslims did believe was the truth before the Koran?
C
Chupacabra
Guest
There weren't any Muslims before Muhammad wrote/recieved the Koran in the same way that there weren't any Christians prior to Jesus. By "Muslims" in the above paragraph, I'll assume you mean Arabs and Persians. Zoroastrianism comes from Persia, so monotheism was certainly known to these people. Various pagan and mystery religions were no doubt believed by the majority of people in this area. Islam does not deny this-- Muslims would be quick to remind you that Muhammad was actually run out of his hometown of Mecca and forced to flee to Medina when he first started to preach his new faith.
From the Old Testament perspective, Arabs are supposedly the descendants of Ishmael, but as I mentioned they were not Jews prior to Muhammad's presentation of the Koran. They believe that the Old and New Testaments both contain some truth, but are inaccurate and have been corrupted. In all honesty, this is a lot more rational than the Christian belief that both testaments are infallibe, but errors can be reconciled because Jehovah "changed his mind" about his supposedly eternal laws in the Old Testament.
Chupacabra said:
As I already posted in another thread, Jesus was INDEED with God in the beginning which is why Genesis uses the word "we" when describing who created the world. Both God & Christ created the world and the plan for salvation. When Jesus was incarnted into the flesh in the 1st century B.C. he used the OT as the source of scripture and God's law. That is why Christians use the WHOLE bible instead of only the NT because Christ was with God in the beginning. Therefore, God made his plan known to all since the beginning of time.
But if the Muslims think the God of the OT is lying in the OT, then how could they have worshiped him? If they didn't worship him, then again, why did allah not guide them for thousands of years until the 6th century? Our God made himself known to us and how to live our lives as soon as his word could be written down. He NEVER left us in the dark.
From the Old Testament perspective, Arabs are supposedly the descendants of Ishmael, but as I mentioned they were not Jews prior to Muhammad's presentation of the Koran. They believe that the Old and New Testaments both contain some truth, but are inaccurate and have been corrupted. In all honesty, this is a lot more rational than the Christian belief that both testaments are infallibe, but errors can be reconciled because Jehovah "changed his mind" about his supposedly eternal laws in the Old Testament.[/quote:3a136]
N
Nicolaj
Guest
Heidi My guess is Muslims take out the parts in the OT and the NT...which fits in with Mohammads...unstanding of the Bible..
Even in the Koran the Bible stories don't match there are many errors..because of Mohammads ignorance and understanding of the Bible..
But they prefer to take his words over Gods truth...
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Unforunataly Muslims chose the wide gate...along with many Christians also...
Even in the Koran the Bible stories don't match there are many errors..because of Mohammads ignorance and understanding of the Bible..
But they prefer to take his words over Gods truth...
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Unforunataly Muslims chose the wide gate...along with many Christians also...
N
Nicolaj
Guest
Heidi My guess is Muslims take out the parts in the OT and the NT...which fits in with Mohammads Koran...unstanding of the Bible..
Even in the Koran the Bible stories don't match there are many errors..because of Mohammads ignorance and understanding of the Bible..
But they prefer to take his words over Gods truth...
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Unforunataly Muslims chose the wide gate...along with many Christians also...
Even in the Koran the Bible stories don't match there are many errors..because of Mohammads ignorance and understanding of the Bible..
But they prefer to take his words over Gods truth...
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Unforunataly Muslims chose the wide gate...along with many Christians also...
Y
YESHUA
Guest
Muhsen said:
Really you know this for a fact? and where is your prove
Shalom and love in the name of YESHUA coming soon
chana
W
warner
Guest
It seems that everything you belive about Islam is wrong, it would be best to find genuine sources to quote from.Nothing you have mentioned here is right.As you say "I guess" , "I think" true they are all guesses and thoughts not facts.Nicolaj said:
Nicolaj said:
As a amatter of fact Islam came and got rid of all Paganistic practiice, I don't think oyu have read the Quran and if you have it is just parts to suit what you want to Know.You would see that the Quran reprimands the Paganistic practices and assures a great punishment for them, so How could you claim that Islam was based on this.All those who wree pagans pre Islams rejected this and became muslims.many were Killed by the Polytheists for this. On the other hand there is more proof out there to show that Paul had introduced Paganistic practices in to christianity.Those who worshipped the one true GOD at the time of Christianity(the Ebeonites) were put to death and their books burnt, for your information.The Nicean creed was introduced which was not the True teachings Of Jesus, which is the Christianty we have today including the paganistic practices of GODs having Children and Dying and coming back to life and many other stuff.
The Bible says prove all things, Can you back this claim up with evidence or is it again guessing.Nicolaj said:
Again hearsay, not fact. Prove all things.Nicolaj said:
It is true that After he was Given his propethood His wife Khadeejah took him to One of here cousins who was a Christian( not nicean but one who followed the true message of Jesus.)He confirmed fromt th true scriptuers that Prophet mohammed was a prophet as was revealed before in the Scriptures.
It shows again that you Never read the Quran,otherwise you would understand that Mohammed did not write a single word of It, he was Analaphabet( could not read or write).Had he written such a thing then with all the Scientific evidence in there than he would have excelled even the greatest scientists of today.Many of the facts in the quran are only coming to light today.It was all revealed to him in his lifetime, not written by matthew mark luke and John not forgetting Paul after 100 years after his death.Nicolaj said:
:angel:
N
Nicolaj
Guest
As a amatter of fact Islam came and got rid of all Paganistic practiice, I don't think oyu have read the Quran and if you have it is just parts to suit what you want to Know.You would see that the Quran reprimands the Paganistic practices and assures a great punishment for them, so How could you claim that Islam was based on this.All those who wree pagans pre Islams rejected this and became muslims.many were Killed by the Polytheists for this. On the other hand there is more proof out there to show that Paul had introduced Paganistic practices in to christianity.Those who worshipped the one true GOD at the time of Christianity(the Ebeonites) were put to death and their books burnt, for your information.The Nicean creed was introduced which was not the True teachings Of Jesus, which is the Christianty we have today including the paganistic practices of GODs having Children and Dying and coming back to life and many other stuff. [/quote:d2943]
Christianity was already changing pagan belief, 610 years before Islam was even thought about...Christians where changing the belief of many pagans...
Islam being the youngest religion....did infact convert some pagans...but also converted many Christians by the sword..
When he received his so called visions..I believe from what I've read in the past is, he went to the Jews, told them he was the new prophet and he was receiving the word of God......but they called him a liar.. and told him to go...
Again hearsay, not fact. Prove all things.
It is true that After he was Given his propethood His wife Khadeejah took him to One of here cousins who was a Christian( not nicean but one who followed the true message of Jesus.)He confirmed fromt th true scriptuers that Prophet mohammed was a prophet as was revealed before in the Scriptures.
Actually it was a Christian monk named Bahira...like I said he had knowledge of the Bible.
http://www.ancient-history.nl/Islam/Pro ... hammed.htm
W
warner
Guest
Nicolaj said:
Christianity was already changing pagan belief, 610 years before Islam was even thought about...Christians where changing the belief of many pagans...
Islam being the youngest religion....did infact convert some pagans...but also converted many Christians by the sword..
When he received his so called visions..I believe from what I've read in the past is, he went to the Jews, told them he was the new prophet and he was receiving the word of God......but they called him a liar.. and told him to go...
Again hearsay, not fact. Prove all things.
It is true that After he was Given his propethood His wife Khadeejah took him to One of here cousins who was a Christian( not nicean but one who followed the true message of Jesus.)He confirmed fromt th true scriptuers that Prophet mohammed was a prophet as was revealed before in the Scriptures.
Actually it was a Christian monk named Bahira...like I said he had knowledge of the Bible.
http://www.ancient-history.nl/Islam/Pro ... hammed.htm[/quote:008a1]The prophet mohammed did not learn anything from bahira, he met him only once on a journey with his grandather or his uncle i cannot recall which.but it was on a trip outside of mecca, Bahira only met him and told his uncle or grand father too look after him well.
That was only once he met he could not have lernt much from him since he was not able to read and write.
Many of your sources are from non muslims who already have a bias against Islam in their Writings.Why not go to the authentic sources, from muslim scholar .from the horses mouth.Or do you not like to quote from the true sources and prefer to stick to the biased ones.
Cya :angel:
I've just been reading a history of the world by a secular author who has no bias toward any of the religions. He agreed with another author that said that after Mohammed's first vision he didn't know whether it was from God or the devil. Thinking he was demon-possessed, the next day he went back to the cave where he received his first vision intending to kill himself, when he saw a second vision. Still in doubt, he went and asked his wife about it and it was she who tried to convince him the vision was from God, even though she never witnessed it! So if Mohammed himself was in doubt about his visions, how then can anyone else tell him they were from God????How would they know? There is absolutely NO way to confirm that Mohammed's visions were not hallucinations. Absolutely none. Yet all of islam is based on his visions and nothing else.
M
Muhsen
Guest
In the Old Testament!!
In the book of Isaiah 29:12:
we find (a sign of Allah) that speaks about the way the revelation was first revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in the Cave and what happened and what the Angel Gabriel told him in the cave and with utmost accuracy.
The verse says:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (KJV)
" When it is handed to one who cannot read, with the request, " Read this" he replies, " I cannot read" (NAB)
Notice how this compares, to the narrated hadiths (sayings) that narrate what happened with Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in the cave:
Sahih al-Bukhari : Hadeeth 3
The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."
The first verse revealed from the Quran starts with the word READ as mentioned in the verse in Isaiah:
Read! in the Name of your Lord Who has created.
He has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.
Who has taught by the pen.
He has taught man that which he knew not....
Quran (Chapter 'The Clot' 96: 1-5)
In the book of Isaiah 29:12:
we find (a sign of Allah) that speaks about the way the revelation was first revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in the Cave and what happened and what the Angel Gabriel told him in the cave and with utmost accuracy.
The verse says:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (KJV)
" When it is handed to one who cannot read, with the request, " Read this" he replies, " I cannot read" (NAB)
Notice how this compares, to the narrated hadiths (sayings) that narrate what happened with Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in the cave:
Sahih al-Bukhari : Hadeeth 3
The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."
The first verse revealed from the Quran starts with the word READ as mentioned in the verse in Isaiah:
Read! in the Name of your Lord Who has created.
He has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.
Who has taught by the pen.
He has taught man that which he knew not....
Quran (Chapter 'The Clot' 96: 1-5)
G
Gary
Guest
Does Isaiah predict Muhammad, the illiterate prophet?
In Isaiah 29:12 we find the verse
Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read,
and say, "Read this, please,"
he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
and there are Muslims who claim that this is a prediction of Muhammad, and his first experience in the cave on Mt. Hira where Gabriel supposedly pressured him to read, but he could not.
However, looking into the context of this verse will make clear that this is a complete misinterpretation. There is no prediction of a future prophet in this passage. In the contrary.
Isaiah 29 is a chapter of announcing punishment on Israel.
3 I will encamp against you all around;
I will encircle you with towers
and set up my siege works against you.
4 Brought low, you will speak from the ground;
your speech will mumble out of the dust.
Your voice will come ghostlike from the earth;
out of the dust your speech will whisper.
and as part of the punishment we read that God will also take away the ability to read (understand) the holy word because they have disobeyed it for so long. In particular, verse 10 states clearly that the prophets and seers themselves will be put to sleep and no longer receive revelation from the LORD.
9 Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless;
be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer.
10 The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
He has sealed your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.
11 For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll.
And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him,
"Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
12 Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say,
"Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
Would Muslims really want to say that this refers to Muhammad? The heart far from God, with worship that is not according to God's will but according to what men have invented (v.13) and that his inability to read is part of God's punishment? It is a sign of God putting a deep sleep on the people regarding spiritual matters, so that regardless how knowledgeable they are, they would nevertheless be unable to read (comprehend) what the word of God means.
Be careful what passages you claim for him! Maybe this does indeed describe Muhammad!!!!
Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/is29-12.html
In Isaiah 29:12 we find the verse
Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read,
and say, "Read this, please,"
he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
and there are Muslims who claim that this is a prediction of Muhammad, and his first experience in the cave on Mt. Hira where Gabriel supposedly pressured him to read, but he could not.
However, looking into the context of this verse will make clear that this is a complete misinterpretation. There is no prediction of a future prophet in this passage. In the contrary.
Isaiah 29 is a chapter of announcing punishment on Israel.
3 I will encamp against you all around;
I will encircle you with towers
and set up my siege works against you.
4 Brought low, you will speak from the ground;
your speech will mumble out of the dust.
Your voice will come ghostlike from the earth;
out of the dust your speech will whisper.
and as part of the punishment we read that God will also take away the ability to read (understand) the holy word because they have disobeyed it for so long. In particular, verse 10 states clearly that the prophets and seers themselves will be put to sleep and no longer receive revelation from the LORD.
9 Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless;
be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer.
10 The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
He has sealed your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.
11 For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll.
And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him,
"Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
12 Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say,
"Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
Would Muslims really want to say that this refers to Muhammad? The heart far from God, with worship that is not according to God's will but according to what men have invented (v.13) and that his inability to read is part of God's punishment? It is a sign of God putting a deep sleep on the people regarding spiritual matters, so that regardless how knowledgeable they are, they would nevertheless be unable to read (comprehend) what the word of God means.
Be careful what passages you claim for him! Maybe this does indeed describe Muhammad!!!!
Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/is29-12.html