When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Jethro Bodine]

...the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant (the old Contract) has been utterly and completely annulled, made void, and of no effect.

...as a way to be declared righteous. That is a way the law was 'taken out of the way'. But when you 'love your neighbor as yourself' you are indeed 'keeping' the very requirements of the law of Moses, not making it utterly and completely annulled and void and of no effect and taken out of the way.

In fact, if your faith is not doing that you will be rejected at the resurrection for being faithless. We see this in James where he teaches laws from the law of Moses to show the way that we have a faith that is alive and able to save.

It could not be only partially annulled. The old contract was written as clauses if you will. "If" statements of, "do good, get good", "do bad, get bad". Therefore, if the ordinances (the get bads) were nailed to the cross the "do bads" were annulled, as well, that part of the contract no longer had any effect.

Though me and John 8:32 may not agree exactly on the literal fulfillments of the worship laws he explained very well how the decrees of death and punishment found in the law got nailed to the cross (those punishments being put on Christ), not the requirements that the decrees are issued for breaking.

We see the requirements of the law of Moses being taught in the NT to us in this New Covenant--the relational laws being taught and summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself', and the worship laws being taught as upheld and satisfied through the blood and body of Christ. No anullment of law going on here, except the debt of law concerning the punishment for breaking the law, but even our faith in Christ 'keeps' those lawful requirements.

This being true (the outstanding debt of punishment we owe for breaking the law got nailed to the cross), Paul goes on to say it's impossible that someone can judge you in regard to how, or if, for example, you keep a Holy Day. Remember, some of the worship requirements had the death penalty attached to them. But in Christ those requirements for worship (rest, sacrifice, etc.) are forever satisfied, not abolished, so it's impossible to be judged according to how you do, or don't do, the shadow. What the shadow sought to do has been forever and perfectly fulfilled through the work of Christ for those who believe. Christ is the fulfillment, not the abolishment of the Mosaic requirements of God for rest, and various other worship requirements. That's why you can't be judged according to them anymore. They are marked 'satisfied' on the books in heaven. But 'love your neighbor as yourself' remains an ongoing obligation of faith for us in this New Covenant:

"8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another..." (Romans 13:8 NIV).

 

[Joe Domingo]

many verses where Jesus says to obey and do all ten commandments,

Where do you find that in scripture?

Thanks for sharing. JLB

[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.

[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt.22:38-40 (and do not miss hang all law and the PROPHETS!)

[...] A summary abbreviates a fuller explanation, but it by no means nullifies the FULL explanation.

When Jesus abbreviated the Ten Commandments in Matthew 22:38-40, he did not nullify any of them.

If JLB is the abbreviated from of your full name, does calling you JLB make you any lesser than what your are?

Could you please give the scripture where Jesus says to obey and do all 10 commandments.

Thanks JLB

huh

Are you implying that Jesus taught the impartial observance of the ten commandments?

Or, are you simply going after the accurateness of my statement?

 

[George Muller]

yes the "letter" (which places a demand upon the flesh for righteousness) kills. The Spirit (which empowers Gods righteousness to work through us) gives life.
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Let me rephrase what I said.

1 Corinthians 2:14 has little or nothing to do with "what is read", but rather what is given or imparted or revealed or spoken by the Spirit to a person.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


JLB

Not sure of your point?
What is the "letter" if it is not "what is read"

That is the point, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not referring to what is written. It is referring to the things of the Spirit.

Please understand that alot of these Greek folks could not read, much less read Hebrew.

The things of The Spirit is not a reference to the law of Moses.


JLB

1Co 2:13 which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual [things] by spiritual [means].(Darby)

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.(KJV)
I like the way (Darby) translated it.




Again I think we are trying to make the same point in different ways?

 

[JLB]

We see this in James where he teaches laws from the law of Moses to show the way that we have a faith that is alive and able to save.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:20

This teaching is from Gods Law. That is the vein in which he refers to the word or the law.


JLB

 

[Joe Domingo]

Not sure of your point?
What is the "letter" if it is not "what is read"

That is the point, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not referring to what is written. It is referring to the things of the Spirit.

Please understand that alot of these Greek folks could not read, much less read Hebrew.

The things of The Spirit is not a reference to the law of Moses.


JLB

1Co 2:13 which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual [things] by spiritual [means].(Darby)

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.(KJV)
I like the way (Darby) translated it.




Again I think we are trying to make the same point in different ways?

Not sure how others feel - but I think I would get a better understanding of the point you are trying to make if you simply stated it. Instead of quoting scripture. Just imagine what this forum would look like if we all responded to each other with quoted scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This issue is very clear, it is the "natural mind" of man that cannot accept what is written. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I see a very clear and distinct difference between what is written and the things of the Spirit of God which are spiritually discerned as opposed to physically read.


JLB

14 ...the law is spiritual... (Romans 7:14 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just imagine what this forum would look like if we all responded to each other with quoted scriptures.

Like a Bible?

 

[George Muller]

Not sure of your point?
What is the "letter" if it is not "what is read"

That is the point, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not referring to what is written. It is referring to the things of the Spirit.

Please understand that alot of these Greek folks could not read, much less read Hebrew.

The things of The Spirit is not a reference to the law of Moses.


JLB

1Co 2:13 which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual [things] by spiritual [means].(Darby)

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.(KJV)
I like the way (Darby) translated it.




Again I think we are trying to make the same point in different ways?

Not sure how others feel - but I think I would get a better understanding of the point you are trying to make if you simply stated it. Instead of quoting scripture. Just imagine what this forum would look like if we all responded to each other with quoted scriptures.

Might be a better forum?

Thank you for your advice, I will stay with what I know works to prove the truth of scripture. The scriptures.

No insults intended, but I have my been on these forums for years, and nothing works to prove the truth like the clear evidence of the written word.

 

[Joe Domingo]

This issue is very clear, it is the "natural mind" of man that cannot accept what is written. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I see a very clear and distinct difference between what is written and the things of the Spirit of God which are spiritually discerned as opposed to physically read.


JLB

14 ...the law is spiritual... (Romans 7:14 NIV)

I agree with you, the Law is spiritual.

But ponder what this means ...

Jeremiah 31:31-33

Does it mean that God writes them in hearts but since they are spiritual we don't have to act them out?

Because to me, if something is in my heart, then it is near and dear to me. Like my wife, I love her dearly, and I show it every day.

So also do I love the Commandments of God, and I do my best to abide in them everyday, and yes, that includes enjoying him and his creation and his worship on the Sabbath

 

[JLB]

Not sure of your point?
What is the "letter" if it is not "what is read"

That is the point, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not referring to what is written. It is referring to the things of the Spirit.

Please understand that alot of these Greek folks could not read, much less read Hebrew.

The things of The Spirit is not a reference to the law of Moses.


JLB

1Co 2:13 which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual [things] by spiritual [means].(Darby)

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.(KJV)
I like the way (Darby) translated it.




Again I think we are trying to make the same point in different ways?

Maybe.

The Spirit teaches us directly. That is the promise of the New Covenant. The words of the Spirit are communicated to us directly.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 1 John 2:20

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John2:27

This teaching from the Spirit is from the inside of you and is not written words.

Of course The Spirit illuminates the scriptures, but is not limited to teaching a person by them reading what is written.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We see this in James where he teaches laws from the law of Moses to show the way that we have a faith that is alive and able to save.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:20

This teaching is from Gods Law. That is the vein in which he refers to the word or the law.


JLB

I shared where he makes more than one reference to the law of Moses. Simply reading his letter makes it clear to me that the vein in which James is speaking is the law of Moses. I don't isolate Rahab's and Abraham's pre-law obedience from everything he says about how the faith that obeys according to the requirements of the law of Moses is the faith that can save a person.

James teaches us that faith upholds the requirements of the law summed up in the royal law of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself', using examples from the law of Moses to illustrate the point. Paul echos this teaching when he says faith upholds the law in Romans 3:31. In context it's easy to see Paul is talking about the law that the Israelites mistakenly understood as the law that justifies--that is, the law of Moses. You can't be justified by the law of Moses, but rather by faith apart from works of the law, but that faith does in fact 'keep' the requirements of the law summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Romans 13:9 NIV).

 

[George Muller]

Not sure of your point?
What is the "letter" if it is not "what is read"

That is the point, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not referring to what is written. It is referring to the things of the Spirit.

Please understand that alot of these Greek folks could not read, much less read Hebrew.

The things of The Spirit is not a reference to the law of Moses.


JLB

1Co 2:13 which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual [things] by spiritual [means].(Darby)

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.(KJV)
I like the way (Darby) translated it.




Again I think we are trying to make the same point in different ways?

Maybe.

The Spirit teaches us directly. That is the promise of the New Covenant. The words of the Spirit are communicated to us directly.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 1 John 2:20

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John2:27

This teaching from the Spirit is from the inside of you and is not written words.

Of course The Spirit illuminates the scriptures, but is not limited to teaching a person by them reading what is written.

JLB

You know I can agree to that to some degree? But it is through His Word that the renewing of the mind takes place. The Holy Spirit bears witness and makes alive that which we read in the bible. The soul is washed and brought into fellowship with the Spirit by the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What the Bible teaches is that the earthly temple, priesthood, sacrifice, and the method and timetable for worship in those earthly things has 'passed away'. But it's made perfectly clear that the laws governing how we treat one another have not 'passed away' but are actually kept, not abolished, through faith in Christ.

Please help me to understand where you are coming from by sharing the scriptures you are referring to.


JLB

You mean the Hebrews scriptures?

If so, I can do that later.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

....it is through His Word that the renewing of the mind takes place. The Holy Spirit bears witness and makes alive that which we read in the bible.

Yes, including the law of Moses.

Some of it comes to life literally in our lives. Some of it is alive in our belief and acceptance of Christ's literal work on the cross.

 

[George Muller]

....it is through His Word that the renewing of the mind takes place. The Holy Spirit bears witness and makes alive that which we read in the bible.

Yes, including the law of Moses.

Some of it comes to life literally in our lives. Some of it is alive in our belief and acceptance of Christ's literal work on the cross.

Yes He is the Word, and all the written word works to conform the believer to the Image of Christ.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Deborah13]

...as a way to be declared righteous

Jethro, my brother, I do love you in Christ. You are a really bright fellow and I know that you understood what I said.

As John prayed for his friend Gaius, I too pray for you.

3 John 1:2
2 Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Count it ALL JOY (your chiefest source of joy) when ye fall into various trials

We know and agree that the law is like a bus driver who has been charged to deliver us to the teacher.

After the deliverery, the duty of the bus driver has been discharged and his/her authority over us is no longer valid. If, while we are under the tutelage of the schoolmaster, the bus driver tried to enter the class room and say, "HEY YOU! PUT DOWN THAT PENCIL - IT IS a POTENTIAL WEAPON - WE ARE to AVOID EVEN the APPEARANCE of EVIL [on my bus], the apt student may observe, "But we are not on your bus any longer."

Some may come and point to the word that I've not properly translated. The word in Greek is paidagōgos (or tutor) and does not, of course, correspond to a "Bus Driver" because the short yellow bus and its driver did not exist at that time. Still, the point is the point. Our tutor (the law) delivers to Christ so that we might be justified by faith (and our God-given Trust in Him).

 

[George Muller]

Re: Count it ALL JOY (your chiefest source of joy) when ye fall into various trials

We know and agree that the law is like a bus driver who has been charged to deliver us to the teacher.

After the deliverery, the duty of the bus driver has been discharged and his/her authority over us is no longer valid. If, while we are under the tutelage of the schoolmaster, the bus driver tried to enter the class room and say, "HEY YOU! PUT DOWN THAT PENCIL - IT IS a POTENTIAL WEAPON - WE ARE to AVOID EVEN the APPEARANCE of EVIL [on my bus], the apt student may observe, "But we are not on your bus any longer."

Some may come and point to the word that I've not properly translated. The word in Greek is paidagōgos (or tutor) and does not, of course, correspond to a "Bus Driver" because the short yellow bus and its driver did not exist at that time. Still, the point is the point. Our tutor (the law) delivers to Christ so that we might be justified by faith (and our God-given Trust in Him).

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ga 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

I think the scriptures are clear, that we are not to allow the law to drive the bus?

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Count it ALL JOY (your chiefest source of joy) when ye fall into various trials

I think the scriptures are clear, that we are not to allow the law to drive the bus?

Yes, that's a fair paraphrase of my paraphrase. Thank you also for quoting the more sure Word. "the schoolmaster" in my analogy is the Holy Spirit, the Law is the bus-driver. I know I messed it up a bit, but it was in the right spirit, yes?

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Count it ALL JOY (your chiefest source of joy) when ye fall into various trials

Great job, both of you.

Point well taken.