When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[JLB]

I thought it might be interesting to our discussion to post a paragraph from and article about a current issue in Jerusalem concerning animal sacrifices.

The article goes into Rabbinical belief it is permitable for Gentiles to sacrifice animals, even outside of the Temple area.

Below in the whole link -

http://www.cogwriter.com/news/prophecy/temple-institute-reports-disturbance-on-temple-mount/

Picture of a recently constructed altar for sacrifices.

Israeli courts have agreed that Jews have the right to perform animal sacrifices, but have repeatedly denied this right as the timing would have excessively negative consequences. And to rebuild a temple in the area that the Muslims consider sacred would be even more problematic politically–especially at this instant.
Of course, in a nation as politically fragmented as modern Israel, the time may come when a ruling coalition will itself have in it some members of a small religious group that will insist on the resumption of sacrifices on the Temple Moun for it to remain in office. And allowing sacrifices on a small altar certainly would seem politically more plausible than the construction of a Jewish temple on the dome of the rock or otherwise next to the al-Aqsa Mosque. While this may not be seen as viable in every possible Israeli administration, it certainly is a possibility for a future one.
The Bible is clear that sacrifices will be stopped by the final King of the North (Daniel 9:27; 11:31). And in order for them to be stopped, they must start first. And while a temple could be built for that purpose, politically and biblically, the idea that sacrifices will start on an altar outside a rebuilt temple is more likely. The fact that almost half of Israelis support the idea of a temple being rebuilt strongly suggests that a significant amount of them would support the idea of sacrifices–with or without a rebuilt temple.




If a Temple was to be rebuilt, could Moses Law be applicable during Daniel's 70th week?


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

Pretty sure they can only be offered on the Temple Mount though.

 

[reba]

The law would have to be applied to build a temple... Who gave who the temple design

 

[JLB]

Pretty sure they can only be offered on the Temple Mount though.

Agreed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The law would have to be applied to build a temple... Who gave who the temple design

Probably a little Leviticus and a whole lot of Talmudic and Rabbinical input.

Through in some modern technology and voila, A Temple!

JLB

 

[reba]

Could this temple be built with the tools we use today?
Where is the pattern for this temple?

Where is the Ark of the Covenant for the Holy of Holies?

Aarons rod the Manna and the Tablets

 

[reba]

That alter is the most antichrist i have seen in these forums...

 

[WIP]

I must say the last 12 posts at least have been very edifying and pleasant. A really good read guys, thanks.

Yes. A much more Christian attitude in my opinion.

 

[JLB]

Could this temple be built with the tools we use today?
Where is the pattern for this temple?

Where is the Ark of the Covenant for the Holy of Holies?

Aarons rod the Manna and the Tablets

Like I said, They will use some of the Law of Moses, the rest they will make up as they go.


JLB

 

[JLB]

while living in the own country

Because you constructed a proviso that is not included in the bible. What about strangers who are found "in the gate" or those who are spiritually grafted into the tree as a branch? These are the ones that the Bible speaks about when we are told there is no difference between Jew or Gentile (because it is implied, no difference between Christian Jewish Believers and Christian Gentile Believers) because we share the life that is in the blood.

Your "in their own country" implies that "they" are non-believers and not members of the Family of God.

Sorry, I just ran across this post.

You make a good point.

Let me explain what I mean and what I was referring to.

I was in a discussion with John 8:32 in post number 1000, in which He made this comment in reference to Colossians 2 -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore condemn you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Don't let anybody condemn you for keeping the Sabbath. How does this get twisted around to condemning the Sabbath?

So I responded -

J

ews sent out from Jerusalem were specifically sent behind Paul to try and bring Gentiles believers into bondage by persuading them to "be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses" which was never of any use to Gentiles living "outside" the covenant land where these Laws were mandated.

The Law of Moses portrayed a shadow, the substance was Christ. End of shadow!

These Jews who were trying to bring condemnation on Gentile Christians because they were not keeping the feast's, nor Sabbath's [plural] nor were they adhering to Mosaic food laws. For good reason, Paul taught them well. These things are of no use to restrain the indulgence of the flesh.

Don't touch this or don't eat that or don't wear mixed clothing or you must keep this feast day... are all Moses Law requirements that were never intended for gentiles that live in other countries.

To say otherwise, is to simply display a lack of understanding.

Now if you can show me in the law of Moses where Gentiles who dwell in other countries were to keep Moses Law, then I will be the one twisting God's word.

If not, then you will be the one guilty of twisting God's word.

So my point is: If the law of Moses did not apply to Gentiles who live outside of Israel, in Moses day, then why would we expect Gentile believers living in Colossea Greece, to keep the Law of Moses.

It was never intended for anyone except Jews living in the Covenant land, where the tabernacle and or temple was.

Every truth that applies to the Law must be found in the Law.

That is why I asked him to show "from the Law' ...

What is your perspective on this?

JLB

 

[George Muller]

Funny how changing a word from "judge" to "condemn" and then leaving a few words out, can change a scripture?
Col 2:16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The point is that Christ is the substance of these shadows seen in the law.

 

[John 8:32]

Funny how changing a word from "judge" to "condemn" and then leaving a few words out, can change a scripture?
Col 2:16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The point is that Christ is the substance of these shadows seen in the law.

They are also the shadow of the future, "Which are a shadow of things to come". The Feast Days show the plan of God and it is not fulfilled yet. Christ has not returned, the resurrection has not occurred, Satan has not been incarcerated, the Millenium has not taken place and the GWTJ has not happened, yet. These days picture these things. Yes, the fulfillment is Christ, but Christ has not brought these events to pass yet. He shows they span a long time frame in His teachings...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

You can read the rest for yourself, I won't take up the bandwith here to do it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It was never intended for anyone except Jews living in the Covenant land, where the tabernacle and or temple was.

This is too broad of a statement. That's why I don't accept this argument. Obviously, there are literal commands that nobody can keep outside of the Land, but it's fundamental principles and requirements are eternal and universal.

Every truth that applies to the Law must be found in the Law.

That is why I asked him to show "from the Law' ...

I wonder, does the law speak of it's own, literal, old way of fulfillment eventually being laid aside? I'm guessing, 'no'.

 

[JLB]

"Which are a shadow of things to come".

The Shadow is future until the substance of the shadow comes.

The substance has in fact come.

The substance is Christ!

Paul addresses the same problem in his letter to the Colossians as he did with his letter to the Galatians.

There were those who were sent out from Jerusalem, who would come behind Paul, and try to bring into bondage these new Gentile Christians, by teaching them to keep the law of Moses and be circumcised.

as Paul writes - Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ...


11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


These Gentile Christians were being compelled to be Circumcised and to keep the law of Moses.


16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

As Paul writes to the Romans - Romans 14:


5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.



14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.


22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

"Which are a shadow of things to come".

The Shadow is future until the substance of the shadow comes.

The substance has in fact come.

Dang, I so wanted to see His return and the Millenium and now you tell me it has already happened. Drat.

The substance is Christ!

Paul addresses the same problem in his letter to the Colossians as he did with his letter to the Galatians.

He just wasn't intelligent enough to use the correct tense here?

There were those who were sent out from Jerusalem, who would come behind Paul, and try to bring into bondage these new Gentile Christians, by teaching them to keep the law of Moses and be circumcised.

as Paul writes - Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ...


11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


These Gentile Christians were being compelled to be Circumcised and to keep the law of Moses.


16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

As Paul writes to the Romans - Romans 14:


5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.



14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.


22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


JLB

A lot of smoke and mirrors and yet Paul says don't let anyone judge you for KEEPING these days. It seems to me if your argument above held water, that Paul would be telling them to not let anyone judge them for NOT keeping them but he didn't say that, did he? He said don't let anyone judge you for KEEPING them. They were KEEPING them and Paul tells them not to let anyone dissuade them from KEEPING them.

 

[John 8:32]

"Which are a shadow of things to come".

The Shadow is future until the substance of the shadow comes.

The substance has in fact come.

The substance is Christ!

Paul addresses the same problem in his letter to the Colossians as he did with his letter to the Galatians.

There were those who were sent out from Jerusalem, who would come behind Paul, and try to bring into bondage these new Gentile Christians, by teaching them to keep the law of Moses and be circumcised.

as Paul writes - Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ...


11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


These Gentile Christians were being compelled to be Circumcised and to keep the law of Moses.


16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

As Paul writes to the Romans - Romans 14:


5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.



14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.


22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


JLB

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Everyone has seen this before, but let's do it again...

credit to Dr. Robert Thiel for the following...

What Does Colossians 2:14 Really Say?

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law!

===============================================

Now, you quoted Col 2:20-23, so let's look at that...

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Barclays commentary says this...

(i) There is Gnostic asceticism (Col 2:16 and Col 2:21). There is the teaching which involves a whole host of regulations about what can and can not be eaten and drunk. In other words there is a return to all the food laws of the Jews, with their lists of things clean and unclean. As we have seen, the Gnostics considered all matter to be essentially evil. If matter is evil, then the body is evil. If the body is evil, two opposite conclusions may be drawn. (a) If the body is essentially evil, it does not matter what we do with it. Being evil it can be used or abused in any way, and it makes no difference. (b) If the body is evil, it must be kept down; it must be beaten and starved and its every impulse chained down. That is to say, Gnosticism could issue either in complete immorality or in rigid asceticism. It is the rigid asceticism with which Paul is dealing here.

You keep misquoting these verses and attributing them to the Law of God. Paul was dealing with Ascetism in the church of Colossae, hence the wording...

(Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) Please explain how the Law of God perishes with the using.

Here is the crux of the matter...

Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

My suggestion to you is that study a little about the Epistle to the Christians at Colossae and determine what it is about.

 

[JLB]

A lot of smoke and mirrors and yet Paul says don't let anyone judge you for KEEPING these days. It seems to me if your argument above held water, that Paul would be telling them to not let anyone judge them for NOT keeping them but he didn't say that, did he? He said don't let anyone judge you for KEEPING them. They were KEEPING them and Paul tells them not to let anyone dissuade them from KEEPING them.

He said don't let anyone judge you for KEEPING them.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Paul certainly does not say "don't let anyone judge you for keeping them". On the contrary, just the opposite, which is qualified in his phrase - But the substance is of Christ.
Those sent out from Jerusalem were compelling the Gentile believers to become circumcised and keep the law of Moses, which includes keeping the feast days.

Paul is encouaging the church, not to feel comdemned by them, nor pressured into to keeping special days and eating special foods and getting circumcised after the flesh that is of no value, for the substance is of Christ!


JLB

 

[Joe Domingo]

If you speed in the highway, you will get a ticket, Christian or not, you must obey the law. If you take something out of Walmart, and you didn't pay for it, you will be arrested, Christian or not, you must pay for it.

This same thought applies to the Law of God, you are still obligated to obey it. What has changed is that you will not suffer death for breaking it, you have Christ as your mediator between you and the father.

Now, if you want to bless a pork chop and eat it, by all means help yourself, but don't say God why? When the doctor says you have heart disease. A knew study is know showing that eating red meat can cause cancer. And an even more recent study is know showing that that eating red meat, pork, eggs causes the bacteria in your gut to create a toxic compound during digestion. So the Law says that Pork is an unclean animal but what about a Cow? Well, a Cow is kosher, but ... US farms don't drain cows of their blood, hence red meat, the Law says not to eat blood. point I'm making is this - simple and pure, God's laws are practical to the well being of our lives.

I can go on about the Sabbath and what it does for us as well as many other laws, but it's pointless if someone is convinced that they are not obligated to keep the Law.

You are NOT obligated to keep the Law for Salvation, but you are obligated to keep it to demonstrate how one should live when they are saved by Christ. Hence, Romans 3:31.

 

[Deborah13]

US farms don't drain cows of their blood, hence red meat, the Law says not to eat blood. point I'm making is this - simple and pure, God's laws are practical to the well being of our lives.

Joe, I think this statement as to how meat is slaughtered, in fact, I know, this very far from actual practices. You might want to consult USDA rules as far as slaughter house practices and as being a "farmer" I can assure you that when an animal is slaughtered the animal is hung, upside down to drain excess blood.

But more importantly the scripture about "drinking blood" and your understanding is not what I have understood this scripture is referring to.
I have found the there were pagan rituals where the actual blood was drained from both dead and alive animals and then drank. Also in the OT it is spelled out in the law that they were not to cut the meat from a live animal and eat it, leaving that animal alive for another go at it. They were to kill it first.

In Africa today, in poor villages, (not as rituals to pagan gods), they will drain some blood from their one or two cows and cook that blood with other foods in order to get the nutritional valve. Not saying that's OK. just a fact.

When I had cancer and was doing chemo the oncologist told me to eat as much red meat as I could stand. The drugs kill off red blood cells, red meat replaces those.

The growth hormones given to some livestock is very definitely being look at as a possible cause of cancer. Where I live people are pasturing and raising animals for other people, cows, chickens etc. so that they are hormone free. Hormone free chickens are going for about $3 - 4 per pound.

 

[George Muller]

Funny how changing a word from "judge" to "condemn" and then leaving a few words out, can change a scripture?
Col 2:16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The point is that Christ is the substance of these shadows seen in the law.

They are also the shadow of the future, "Which are a shadow of things to come". The Feast Days show the plan of God and it is not fulfilled yet. Christ has not returned, the resurrection has not occurred, Satan has not been incarcerated, the Millenium has not taken place and the GWTJ has not happened, yet. These days picture these things. Yes, the fulfillment is Christ, but Christ has not brought these events to pass yet. He shows they span a long time frame in His teachings...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

You can read the rest for yourself, I won't take up the bandwith here to do it.

Gee that does not seem to be the point at all
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. {rudiments: or, elements} {make a prey: or, seduce you, or, lead you astray}
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. {in it: or, in himself}
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: {in meat...: or, for eating and drinking} {respect: or, part}
(KJV)

It seems that these scriptures in their clear context are saying a very different thing